Miche Primato Pista bits

Suzy Jackson said:

Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers, one of whom rode the
whole time without once coasting. This strange behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel
roadie in the garage with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that was
brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been quietly gathering dust since
I built my go faster aluminium massively overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track cranks and wheels on it,
and throw away that nasty back brake for ever, and see if I can break myself of this terrible
coasting habit. Further down the track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a
framebuilder and get a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny new
cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going around in circles (but always
pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and decided Record is
ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the list seems to be the Miche Primato bits,
which seem at first glance to strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as
nice as they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said bearings disintegrate?
I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where one simply pulls everything apart and gives it all
a scrub and some nice new grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new cones should the
need arise.

Go to a bearing shop and buy new cartridges for a few dollars each, and beg borrow or steal the
required bearing pullers and puches from a motorcycle workshop

Quoted message said:

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track cranks seem to be 144. Is
this likely to cause grief?

It's the standard pcd for Campag road race rings now, so getting replacements is easy (i.e. you can
use Miche, Campag, TA, Stronglight and probably one or two other manufacturers' aftermarket rings,
even if you ever manage to wear out the original, which will take a while). Even easier to get 130mm
(Shimano standard) rings for the even lovelier (but more expensive) TA track cranks, though.

Quoted message said:

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down to 120mm? It's had 130mm
wide wheels forced into it before without significant complaint.

My steel bike hasn't complained about exactly this kind of abuse yet, and there are hundreds of old
steel road frames living daily with the track hub squeeze, so don't worry

Quoted message said:

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

Regards,

Suzy

Finally, if you do a google search of r.b.t on terms like fixed, track hubs, Miche etc, you'll find
we've been discussingall these things at great length for years.

Kinky Cowboy

*Your milage may vary Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts.

If it's just for fun, then find an old set of wheels from before cassette hubs - one with a
freewheel. Then remove the freewheel and screw on a track cog. Any wheel that old will likely
have narrow spacing. In fact the wheels on your old bike might work fine. And your cranks will
work fine too.

If you find you like riding a fixed then you can start thinking about upgrading parts. I always used
old stuff sitting around for years. Once I even used a Biopace chainrring - it's excentricity was
dispersed eveningly so the chain didn't change tension too much.

Fixed can be fun.

-Bruce

"Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers, one of whom rode the
whole time without once coasting. This strange behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel
roadie in the garage with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been quietly gathering dust
since I built my go faster aluminium massively overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track cranks and wheels on it,
and throw away that nasty back brake for ever,

and

Quoted message said:

see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down

the

Quoted message said:

track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and

get

Quoted message said:

a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny new cranks and wheels
on it, and see how much I can scare myself going around in circles (but always pedalling of
course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and decided Record is
ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the list seems to be the Miche Primato
bits, which seem at first glance to strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense.
Are they as nice

as

Quoted message said:

they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said bearings disintegrate? I'm
used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where

one

Quoted message said:

simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new grease occasionally, and
one can buy new balls and new cones should the

need

Quoted message said:

arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track cranks seem to be 144.
Is this likely to cause grief?

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down

to

Quoted message said:

120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without

significant

Quoted message said:

complaint.

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

Regards,

Suzy

Bruce said:

If you find you like riding a fixed then you can start thinking about upgrading parts. I always
used old stuff sitting around for years. Once I even used a Biopace chainrring - it's excentricity
was dispersed eveningly so the chain didn't change tension too much.

It's not that the eccentricity is dispersed that lets you use those rings. As long as the number of
teeth on one half the ring is the same as the other half, no matter where you draw the line, it will
work fine. The only change in tension then is due to the ever-so-small change in angle of the chain,
which is less change in tension than many out-of-round sprockets.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | This is my religion. There is no need for temples; no need for _`\(,_ | complicated
philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our (_)/ (_) | temple. The philosophy is kindness.
--The Dalai Lama

Quoted message said:

If it's just for fun, then find an old set of wheels from before cassette hubs - one with a
freewheel. Then remove the freewheel and screw on a track cog.

i wouldn't do that - you can't get a lockring to stay on. the one time you really need to backpedal
effectively, it'll unscrew.

i know - i have a scar from when i encountered this issue as a kid.

jb

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

If it's just for fun, then find an old set of wheels from before cassette hubs - one with a
freewheel. Then remove the freewheel and screw on a track cog.

i wouldn't do that - you can't get a lockring to stay on. the one time you really need to
backpedal effectively, it'll unscrew.

If this is a worry, you could leave the rear brake on until you decide to upgrade to a real
track hub.

I'm not claiming it never happens, but I don't recall ever being in a situation where I've needed
to brake hard with the rear. I seldom bike in conditions where there is likely to be poor
traction, though.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.
- Mark Twain

Suzy Jackson said:

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers, one of whom rode the
whole time without once coasting. This strange behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old
steel roadie in the garage with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle
that was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been quietly gathering
dust since I built my go faster aluminium massively overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track cranks and wheels on
it, and throw away that nasty back brake for ever, and see if I can break myself of this terrible
coasting habit. Further down the track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a
framebuilder and get a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny
new cranks and wheels on it, and see how much I can scare myself going around in circles (but
always pedalling of course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and decided Record is
ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the list seems to be the Miche Primato bits,
which seem at first glance to strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as
nice as they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said bearings
disintegrate? I'm used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where one simply pulls everything apart
and gives it all a scrub and some nice new grease occasionally, and one can buy new balls and new
cones should the need arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track cranks seem to be 144.
Is this likely to cause grief?

Yes. Miche is the only source for track rings in this BCD. Other manufacturers make shifty type
rings, which will work, but generally the selection in this oddball BCD is sparse.

My advice is to use a typical "road" crankset, such as you may already own, and remove the outer
ring. A cheap set of BMX chainring bolts will be needed.

Quoted message said:

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down to 120mm? It's had 130mm
wide wheels forced into it before without significant complaint.

It would make more sense to build up the axle by adding a pair of 3 mm spacers beneath the locknuts.

The Miche hubs are OK, but nothing special. I'd recommend Surly or Suzue...actually, for you,
definitely SUZue!

See: sheldonbrown.comfixed.htmlOpen ↗

My Website has a great deal of material on fixed-gears for road use, see:
sheldonbrown.comfixedOpen ↗.

Sheldon "Coasting Is Bad For You" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| I still feel that variable gears are only for people over | forty-five. Isn't it better to
| triumph by the strength | of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? | We are getting
| soft...As for me, give me a fixed gear! | --Henri Desgrange, _L'Equipe_ article of 1902 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Mike S. said:

I'll second the motion further down of finding a FW hubset.

This is an old discussion, but I disagree. At least make sure to lock-tite the sprocket on if
you do this.

Quoted message said:

If you're set on riding a track hub, check out the Sugino Pro Max too. There's always someone out
there with a pair of used track hubs. I'm running Superbe hubs on my track bike and love them.

I have a Dura-Ace double-sided rear which is the best-designed hub I've seen. It is also nice to be
able to turn it around for a second gear in case you need it. IMO double-sided fixed is better than
fixed/free.

Quoted message said:

For the first iteration of the bike, I'd recommend running whatcha got now.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

racing thing's for you. I used to run a 42x17 setup most winters.

That is kinda low. You will find yourself spinning at 110 or more just to keep up with a slow group.
I use that for my hilly commute, but a 42/16 gives a better all-around gear.

Quoted message said:

Even though Sheldon doesn't use his rear brake, I'd still recommend keeping it on till
definitively proven that you don't need it.

I concur. The biggest advantage is that you have a second brake hood to hang on to. Most of us spend
much of our time on the hoods when using a road bike; it makes sense to have the same for the fixed
gear. If you do race, a second set of bars/stem makes switching for the track pretty easy.

Quoted message said:

I'd also recommend a single speed FW for larger group rides.

Nah.

Quoted message said:

means that you can coast. It also means that you can react to what the idiot in front of you is
doing in an emergency better.

No, no no. The beauty of a fixed gear, and why it survives on the track, is that you can react
more quickly than with brakes. You can't come to a full stop quickly, but you can get out of
someone's way much faster. You just think about slowing down, and it happens because you naturally
slow your cadence.

Quoted message said:

If you can remember rule #1 of fixed gear riding: never, EVER, stop pedaling, you'll do OK.

The bike will remind you about that quite forcefully.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front _`\(,_ | of enough
typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of (_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the
collected works of Shakespeare. The internet has proven this not to be the case.

"Suzy Jackson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I did a nice 70km ride on the weekend with a bunch of local troublemakers, one of whom rode the
whole time without once coasting. This strange behaviour got me to thinking, I've got an old steel
roadie in the garage with those much sought after horizontal dropouts, and a rear triangle that
was brazed together when five speed freewheels were plentiful, that's been quietly gathering dust
since I built my go faster aluminium massively overgeared clicky lever bike.

So I thought about it a bit, and figured it'd be lots of fun to put track cranks and wheels on it,
and throw away that nasty back brake for ever,

and

Quoted message said:

see if I can break myself of this terrible coasting habit. Further down

the

Quoted message said:

track (pun entirely intended) I could go and talk to a framebuilder and

get

Quoted message said:

a real track frame (or perhaps even a box of tubes and lugs), put my shiny new cranks and wheels
on it, and see how much I can scare myself going around in circles (but always pedalling of
course).

In any case, I cast around on the net looking for suitable candidates, and decided Record is
ridiculously expensive, as is Dura-Ace. Next down the list seems to be the Miche Primato
bits, which seem at first glance to strike a good compromise between shinyness and expense.
Are they as nice

as

Quoted message said:

they look? I see they use cartridge bearings. What do I do when said bearings disintegrate? I'm
used to my nice Campy cup & cone hubs where

one

Quoted message said:

simply pulls everything apart and gives it all a scrub and some nice new grease occasionally, and
one can buy new balls and new cones should the

need

Quoted message said:

arise.

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track cranks seem to be 144.
Is this likely to cause grief?

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down

to

Quoted message said:

120mm? It's had 130mm wide wheels forced into it before without

significant

Quoted message said:

complaint.

Anyways, I was hoping to con some advice out of others who use these bits.

The Miche equipment is OK and I stock it but you needn't be restricted to "pista" gear. Here's our
opinion about cheap urban fixed parts: yellowjersey.orgsensible.htmlOpen ↗

The only thing you absolutley need IMHO is a fixed hub with reverse threaded lockring and a track
cog. There are others who feel even that can be kludged by screwing a single cog on a freewheel hub.
I don't/won't do that but there was a heated discussion on the topic here a year ago if you want to
peruse the arguments. A Suzue fixed hub is dirt cheap BTW.

And 135mm is the same as your Chorus crank. 39, 40, 42, 50, 52, 53 from Campagnolo and those plus
44, 45, 46 from Stronglight, inter alia.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Hi all,

Many thanks for the good advice. I do indeed have a couple of freewheel hubs that I could have
simply redished and bunged a track cog on, but I figured that I would avoid risking my luck and get
some proper track hubs. Sheldon recommended the Suzue ones (how could I resist with a name like
that) so I've gone with their cup-n-cone ones, which look suitably shiny.

Also, as people have recommended, I'll stick with my road cranks for now and simply fit shorty chain
bolts, so I can run just one chain ring.

I can't wait! I rode to work and back today in a 49/19 - 68" (on my lotsa gears bike) and found the
hills were doable. There's a short steep bit (perhaps 5% for 500m) on the way home that pretty much
dictates the upper
limit. I reckon a few weeks of having my legs spun off like this will do wonders.

Regards,

Suzy

Quoted message said:

Sheldon recommended the Suzue ones (how could I resist with a name like that) so I've gone with
their cup-n-cone ones, which look suitably shiny.

be aware that the "real" track stuff doesn't have good seals on the bearings. don't know if you
plan on playing in the rain but it's a great time to practice your skip-braking.

"4,000 shiftless miles this year."

Nihil est ab omni parte beatum. - (Horace)

Suzy Jackson said:

Next down the list seems to be the Miche Primato bits, which seem at first glance to strike a good
compromise between shinyness and expense. Are they as nice as they look? I see they use cartridge
bearings. What do I do when said bearings disintegrate?

Miche use 6001 series bearings in both their front and rear track hubs. It's one of the most common
sizes found in bicycle hubs fitted with sealed bearings. Their bottom bracket bearings aren't
serviceable, but they're cheap enough to regard as disposable.

Quoted message said:

The next issue is that the cranks are 135mm PCD, whereas most other track cranks seem to be 144. Is
this likely to cause grief?

If (when) you start track racing, using 135 mm. p.c.d. cranks will force you to be somewhat more
self-reliant to own all the gearing options you'll need for the range of events you ride. There will
be fewer people from whom you can borrow a chainring than if you were using 144 pattern cranks. On
the other hand, there may be fewer riders hassling you to borrow _your_ stuff.

For fixed-gear road use, the bolt pattern will mostly be a non-issue. There are fewer manufacturers
supporting the 135 standard, but you'll find 3 mm (1/8"😉 'rings from 46 to 52 from Miche and an even
wider range of 2 mm (3/32"😉 'rings from T.A. and Campagnolo.

Quoted message said:

Finally, is it an issue squeezing the back end of a 126mm wide bike down to 120mm? It's had 130mm
wide wheels forced into it before without significant complaint.

Most steel road frames like the one you mention should tolerate this kind of compression. However,
it's such a trifle to stick a 3 mm spacer on each side of a Miche rear track hub to bring it to 126
over-locknuts that it'd be an error to omit this simple remedy.

-------------------------------
businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
twenty-first year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------

Quoted message said:

However, it's such a trifle to stick a 3 mm spacer on each side of a Miche rear track hub to bring
it to 126 over-locknuts that it'd be an error to omit this simple remedy.

oh yeah, i have a pair of Miche - the freakin' axles are a wee
short, the nuts have a few exposed threads. not the end of the world
but don't know if i would exacerbate the issue with 6-mm of spacers.

Fallaces sunt rerum species - (L. Annaeus Seneca)

When I said:

Quoted message said:

However, it's such a trifle to stick a 3 mm spacer on each side of a Miche rear track hub to
bring it to 126 over-locknuts that it'd be an error to omit this simple remedy.

On 6 Sep 2003 20:19:16 -0700, [email hidden] (B.C. Cletta) replied:

Quoted message said:

oh yeah, i have a pair of Miche - the freakin' axles are a wee
short, the nuts have a few exposed threads. not the end of the world
but don't know if i would exacerbate the issue with 6-mm of spacers.

I can't readliy explain the configuration of your hub. My "hands-on" experience selling Miche's
track hubs goes back only a year and a little. In that time however, the hubs I've received have
invariably been fitted with rear axles that could only be described as generously long (170 mm.,
plus or minus a smidgeon). The Miche rear axles have been at least 5 mm longer than those fitted
to current Dura-Ace track hubs. Axles in Campagnolo's rear track hubs measure shorter still (less
than 160 mm.).

These current Miche track rears should be plenty long enough to span 126 mm OLN.

-------------------------------
businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗ John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida 305-273-4440 Now in our
twenty-first year. Our catalog of track equipment: eighth year online
-------------------------------