Missing bearings

modmans2ndcoming said:

I was repairing the inner tube on the back of my old Raleigh and I
noticed a grinding as the tire spun. I checked out all the external
stuff and decided to take out the axle to check in the hub. Low and
behold, I am missing half the bearings on either side of the hub. Do I
need to take the hub apart and put in a new cartridge of bearings or
can I just buy some new bearings and fill up both sides of the hub
(adding the right amount of lithium grease)? I think they are either 12
or 10 gauge.

Gauge? Last time I bought some, bearing balls were still sized by
their fractional-inch dimension, and had been for at least 40 years
that I know about.

Take a close look and see if there are bits of an old bearing cage in
the hub. I suspect that there was a plastic retainer used when the
bike was built, and that it has since disintegrated. If the balls are
in stunningly good shape, you could certainly re-use them while adding
more of the same size to fill up the complement...but bearing balls
are usually cheap enough that there's little to be gained by doing so.
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I don't think that there was a plastic retainer for the bearings
because there is a kind of round nut the threads onto the axle into the
hub and comes in direct contact with the bearings.

I have a cup and cone assembly, BTW.

Werehatrack said:

Take a close look and see if there are bits of an old bearing cage in
the hub. I suspect that there was a plastic retainer used when the
bike was built, and that it has since disintegrated. If the balls are
in stunningly good shape, you could certainly re-use them while adding
more of the same size to fill up the complement...but bearing balls
are usually cheap enough that there's little to be gained by doing so.

1) Don't worry one way or the other about the retainer cage. That is
there to make assembly quicker, and has no impact on function.

2) Don't re-use any of the old bearings. How they look to the naked eye
is irrelevant. On a wheel as bad off as this must be, those remaining
bearings have to be worn. At a couple pennies per bearing, there is no
point to it.

3) After this much damage, I would worry about the condition of the cup
and cone. I have never pulled apart a wheel and found bearings missing;
this wheel has had some rough use.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve
_`\(,_ | death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to
(_)/ (_) | them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.
-- J. R. R. Tolkein

After more reading on the net, I have concluded that some moron owner
put in the wrong size bearings because the cone does not contact the
bearings at all and can be tightened down all the way into the hub as
the bearings do not come over the top of the cup. The bearings that are
in there are small enough for the cup to accommodate two rows of them.
To imagine the size of these bearings, think of a cooked pea... they
are a little smaller than that.

There is no damage to the cup or the cone. I should probably just take
my wheel up to a shop and ask them what size bearings it requires.

modmans2ndcoming said:

After more reading on the net, I have concluded that some moron owner
put in the wrong size bearings because the cone does not contact the
bearings at all and can be tightened down all the way into the hub as
the bearings do not come over the top of the cup. The bearings that are
in there are small enough for the cup to accommodate two rows of them.
To imagine the size of these bearings, think of a cooked pea... they
are a little smaller than that.

There is no damage to the cup or the cone. I should probably just take
my wheel up to a shop and ask them what size bearings it requires.

Nearly all older rear cup-and-cone hubs use 1/4" bearings. Sounds about
like what you describe.

Mark

OK, Thanks. How then does it make it difficult to adjust the cone? With
1/4" bearings, the cone can be threaded all the way into the hub, where
I assume it belongs. I imagine that newer cup systems have larger
bearings where the cone gets tightened into the bearings and cannot
pass over top of them. (if that makes sense)

modmans2ndcoming said:

I don't think that there was a plastic retainer for the bearings
because there is a kind of round nut the threads onto the axle into the
hub and comes in direct contact with the bearings.

That's the cone. There could have been a retainer used, but from your
other comments, it's apparent that there wasn't one involved, and that
the hub has been subjected to misrepair. The purposes of the
retainers, where they were fitted, were to speed the assembly and
allow the use of fewer bearing balls. There's not a lot of reason to
keep them in place when they're found; the load is better distributed
by using more balls. I've run across a hub that had crumbled bits of
an old retainer mixed in with the balls; from your original comments,
it seemed possible that you might have had the same situation.

With the correct number and size of balls in place, the cone will
contact only the balls, and they'll ride against the concave shoulder
on the cone. Look closely at that shoulder; if the surface is pitted,
the cone is toast.
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modmans2ndcoming said:

After more reading on the net, I have concluded that some moron owner
put in the wrong size bearings because the cone does not contact the
bearings at all and can be tightened down all the way into the hub as
the bearings do not come over the top of the cup. The bearings that are
in there are small enough for the cup to accommodate two rows of them.
To imagine the size of these bearings, think of a cooked pea... they
are a little smaller than that.

There is no damage to the cup or the cone. I should probably just take
my wheel up to a shop and ask them what size bearings it requires.

How many balls did you find?

For some helpful info, see:
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=105

Hub assembly gives common ball numbers.

Life is Good!
Jeff

modmans2ndcoming said:

OK, Thanks. How then does it make it difficult to adjust the cone? With
1/4" bearings, the cone can be threaded all the way into the hub, where
I assume it belongs.

I don't see this. Certainly there has to be some of the cone/locknut
assembly outside of the hub to clamp onto the frame. How much varies with
the design. The spacing between the edge of the locknuts should be the
same as between the dropouts on the frame.

Quoted message said:

 I imagine that newer cup systems have larger
bearings

No, in fact some newer ones have smaller bearings.

Quoted message said:

where the cone gets tightened into the bearings and cannot pass
over top of them. (if that makes sense)

"Pass over top of them" doesn't really make sense. The bearings need to
contact both the cup and the cone. If there is enough space to slide the
cone past the bearings, something is the wrong size. Maybe the axle was
swapped from a front wheel, which has smaller bearings and cones.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

... If there is enough space to slide the
cone past the bearings, something is the wrong size. Maybe the axle was
swapped from a front wheel, which has smaller bearings and cones.

It wouldn't be the first time it had been done. The junk I've
scrapped from auction bikes amazes me.
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