More spokes

Dave B said:

Popped in to the local LBS today with the wheel I mentioned in the
earlier post. After a bit of inspection he suggested that I would
need a new rim as there was a bit of a buckle on the old rim which
would never be fully corrected by retensioning spokes (i.e. more
spokes would go in the future no matter how much truing and
re-tensioning he did).

To quote "the rim needs to be true to start with"

Did he remove all the spokes to see how 'buckled' the rim was? Otherwise,
how would he know the rim was knackered? The buckle was probably due to the
spokes pulling it out of true. A new set of spokes would be in order, not a
new rim as well. Is this the same LBS that sold you the bike and 're-trued'
the wheels in the first place?

Quoted message said:

Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim
have to be to be scrapped?

More buckled than you described in your earlier post. A single popped spoke
is not enough to make a rim unusable. A car drove into my back wheel in
November -- it was impossible to turn the wheel as it was so out of true it
wouldn't even turn in the frame! Now that's a write off.

Simon Bennett said:

Did he remove all the spokes to see how 'buckled' the rim was? Otherwise,
how would he know the rim was knackered? The buckle was probably due to the
spokes pulling it out of true. A new set of spokes would be in order, not a
new rim as well. Is this the same LBS that sold you the bike and 're-trued'
the wheels in the first place?

He did none of the above and yes it is the same bike shop that sold me
the bike. I'm a bit miffed as the LBS was recommended to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim
have to be to be scrapped?

More buckled than you described in your earlier post. A single popped spoke
is not enough to make a rim unusable. A car drove into my back wheel in
November -- it was impossible to turn the wheel as it was so out of true it
wouldn't even turn in the frame! Now that's a write off.

I'm certainly learning. So can anyone recommend any decent bike shops in
Glasgow (I am interested to see if anyone will recommend the one I use!)

Dave

In message <[email hidden]>, Dave B
<[email hidden]> writes
<snip>

Quoted message said:

He did none of the above and yes it is the same bike shop that sold me
the bike. I'm a bit miffed as the LBS was recommended to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim
have to be to be scrapped?

More buckled than you described in your earlier post. A single
popped spoke
is not enough to make a rim unusable. A car drove into my back wheel in
November -- it was impossible to turn the wheel as it was so out of true it
wouldn't even turn in the frame! Now that's a write off.

I'm certainly learning. So can anyone recommend any decent bike shops
in Glasgow (I am interested to see if anyone will recommend the one I
use!)

Dave

I usually go to Behind Bars on Kilmarnock Road, Shawlands.

http://www.bikes-behindbars.co.uk/home.cfm

I find them helpful and straightforward to deal with. They seem more
interested in keeping a customer than merely making a profit on each
sale/repair.
--
Bob Downie
Downie GeoScience Ltd.
please remove #n0spam# to reply directly

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim
have to be to be scrapped?

More buckled than you described in your earlier post. A single popped spoke
is not enough to make a rim unusable.

I wouldn't expect a single popped spoke to put a wheel out of true enough
that the brakes couldn't be adjusted to cope with it either unless they
are double pivot calipers, so maybe there is more to it than that.

Certainly it is possible to locally buckle a rim in such a way that it is
obvious it is buckled without having to untension it first to see. But if
it was buckled like that then I'd expect Dave to have seen that too, before
getting it to the bike shop.

Dave B said:

Simon Bennett wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did he remove all the spokes to see how 'buckled' the rim was? Otherwise,
how would he know the rim was knackered? The buckle was probably due to the
spokes pulling it out of true. A new set of spokes would be in order, not a
new rim as well. Is this the same LBS that sold you the bike and 're-trued'
the wheels in the first place?

He did none of the above and yes it is the same bike shop that sold me
the bike. I'm a bit miffed as the LBS was recommended to me.

If you start with a true wheel and remove a spoke it will inevitably go
out of shape as there will be more spokes pulling the rim to one side
than the other. Unless the rim had a visible ding or the wheel was
wildly out of shape, I don't see how the shop can make a judgement on
how warped the rim itself is without first slackening all the remaining
spokes right off. My hunch is that your rim would have gone almost
perfectly flat.

A badly warped rim can be trued, but the spoke tension will be uneven
and it will never be satisfactory, so they're right as far as that
goes. However, this wheel is fairly new, and they sold it to you in the
first place. If there is something wrong with the rim, therefore, and
there is no evidence if its having been abused, I see that as their
problem, not yours.

--
Dave...

Alan Braggins said:

I wouldn't expect a single popped spoke to put a wheel out of true enough
that the brakes couldn't be adjusted to cope with it either unless they
are double pivot calipers, so maybe there is more to it than that.

Maybe not, but in his OP in the original thread Dave did not say that
he attempted to adjust the brakes or the remaining spokes, just that
the rim was hard against one block when he found it in the morning. He
may not have realised there were some simple things he could do to make
the bike rideable.

--
Dave...

dkahn400 said:

Alan Braggins wrote:
Maybe not, but in his OP in the original thread Dave did not say that
he attempted to adjust the brakes or the remaining spokes, just that
the rim was hard against one block when he found it in the morning. He
may not have realised there were some simple things he could do to make
the bike rideable.

I did make a quick attempt to adjust the brakes but they were still
rubbing. I didn't touch the spokes as I have yet to attend the spoke
tinkering class!!

When the original spoke broke and I rode the bike home, I had to release
the V brakes to allow me to ride it, so I assume it was reasonably
buckled! I still had the front brake so no great problem.

Dave

Bob Downie said:

I usually go to Behind Bars on Kilmarnock Road, Shawlands.

http://www.bikes-behindbars.co.uk/home.cfm

I find them helpful and straightforward to deal with. They seem more
interested in keeping a customer than merely making a profit on each
sale/repair.

Thanks Bob. They are a wee bit out of my way (I'm in Anniesland),
however, transporting the bike that far might be justified to avoid
getting fleeced in the future.

Dave

Dave B said:

Hi Guys

(I will try to keep me grammer and spelling as proper as I can) ;-)

Popped in to the local LBS today with the wheel I mentioned in the
earlier post. After a bit of inspection he suggested that I would need a
new rim as there was a bit of a buckle on the old rim which would never
be fully corrected by retensioning spokes (i.e. more spokes would go in
the future no matter how much truing and re-tensioning he did).

To quote "the rim needs to be true to start with"

Being a relative newbie to this cycling malarkey I couldn't really argue
so I have given the ok for a new rim, and spokes (keeping the hub and
cassette). Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim have to be
to be scrapped?

Hard to say without seeing the wheel in question. When one spoke starts
go go the others are usually not far behind, so replacing the lot makes
sense. Building a wheel with a bent rim is extra work and not very
satisfying so a shop would be very inclined to suggest a new rim,
certainly when the braketracks show wear.

If the wheel was very new I'd probably replace the spoke (very little
work) and prepare the customer that if that isn't succesfull replacement
will be needed.

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Dave B said:

Hi Guys

(I will try to keep me grammer and spelling as proper as I can) ;-)

Popped in to the local LBS today with the wheel I mentioned in the
earlier post. After a bit of inspection he suggested that I would need a
new rim as there was a bit of a buckle on the old rim which would never
be fully corrected by retensioning spokes (i.e. more spokes would go in
the future no matter how much truing and re-tensioning he did).

To quote "the rim needs to be true to start with"

Being a relative newbie to this cycling malarkey I couldn't really argue
so I have given the ok for a new rim, and spokes (keeping the hub and
cassette). Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim have to be
to be scrapped?

Last time that happened to me I took it to a shop and said 'true it'.
Matey gave it a good go while I stood and watched and declared if 'a
word starting with F'. So new one it was.

My mate did the same, guy refused to even try it, declared it 'fcuked',
I took it back home, trued it myself and it's been ok for 6 months now.

Moral: Not sure, but a least get them to have a go. 'Spose it also
depends on the use, both bikes were daily commuters so not to big a fuss
if the wheel isn't dead true.

<fx: flicks through catalogue> Ahh, yes, there it is, the Park Wheel
Truing Stand, must get it some day.

"Tosspot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<fx: flicks through catalogue> Ahh, yes, there it is, the Park Wheel
Truing Stand, must get it some day.

Indeed. I've only done two back wheels and at least 7 fronts without one
(one of these was a rehub in a tent while on holiday :-) ).

cheers,
clive

Dave B said:

To quote "the rim needs to be true to start with"

Being a relative newbie to this cycling malarkey I couldn't really argue
so I have given the ok for a new rim, and spokes (keeping the hub and
cassette). Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim have to be
to be scrapped?

An LBS where the BS is the more common meaning than Bike Shop.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

Alan Braggins said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Simon

Bennett said:

Quoted message said:

Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim
have to be to be scrapped?

More buckled than you described in your earlier post. A single
popped spoke is not enough to make a rim unusable.

I wouldn't expect a single popped spoke to put a wheel out of true
enough that the brakes couldn't be adjusted to cope with it either
unless they
are double pivot calipers, so maybe there is more to it than that.

Not my experience. OK my bike is old (circa 1990), but decent parts for its
date; Wolber (I think) rims on Suntour hubs.

Last year I broke a single rear spoke on the driven side. No idea why it
went. That was enough to make the rim catch cantilever brakes on each
revolution, and slacking the brakes off to clear resulted in effectively no
brakes.

The bike was still ridable though, with only a single sided momentary brake
catch causing minimal drag. So, I rode to a bike shop, bought a spoke, and
rode 5 miles home to fix it. I rode slower than usual, avoided rear
braking, took extra care to avoid potholes and had a strict "no jumping
raised kerbs" rule (several on a designated bikes around here).
Since the DIY replacement of spoke (and some deliberate over-tensioning,
squeezing of spokes together, etc., then releasing back to true), the wheel
has been fine, including some stony bridleways, potholes, kerbs, cobblestone
streets, etc..

Quoted message said:

Certainly it is possible to locally buckle a rim in such a way that
it is obvious it is buckled without having to untension it first to
see. But if
it was buckled like that then I'd expect Dave to have seen that too,
before getting it to the bike shop.

Agreed.

If the OP keeps suffering spoke failures, then I think the way out is
finding a good wheel builder (recommendation being the only way) and getting
a wheel made to suit.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Tony Raven said:

An LBS where the BS is the more common meaning than Bike Shop.

Oooh! I am so tempted to name it.......

Dave B said:

Tony Raven said:

An LBS where the BS is the more common meaning than Bike Shop.

Oooh! I am so tempted to name it.......

The German newsgroup equivalent of LBS is FDGM, bikeshop of the least
mistrust !

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Dave B said:

Tony Raven said:

An LBS where the BS is the more common meaning than Bike Shop.

Oooh! I am so tempted to name it.......

<Mrs Doyle>
Go on, go on, go on, go on, go on, go on...(cont p93)
</Mrs Doyle>

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

"Dave B" wrote

Quoted message said:

Being a relative newbie to this cycling malarkey I couldn't really argue
so I have given the ok for a new rim, and spokes (keeping the hub and
cassette). Does this sound reasonable? How buckled does a rim have to be
to be scrapped?

As I said in the original thread, I broke a spoke last week and several more
trying to get the wheel true after replacing the broken one. Managed to get
it fairly straight but took it to the shop today for a proper job.
The guy in the shop had the same trouble and reckoned the spokes were duff
and the wheel should be rebuilt.
But, as the bike is only 6 months old the manufacturer has coughed up for
the cost under warranty.
IIRC you said yours was only 7 months old, might be worth seeing if you've
got any warranty to invoke?

Nigel Cliffe wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

If the OP keeps suffering spoke failures, then I think the way out is
finding a good wheel builder (recommendation being the only way) and getting
a wheel made to suit.

I was pointed in the direction of Wheelcraft at Clachan of Campsie as
the best wheelbuilder in the area.

WHEELCRAFT
Area: GLASGOW

UNIT 4 ALDESSAN HOUSE
CAMPSIE GLEN
GLASGOW, LANARKSHIRE, G66 7AB

He's built a couple of wheels for me - no complaints.

Kennedy