Mountain Bikes · Public discussion

Mountain Biking FAQ Updated Again (see # 13)

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Mountain Bikes
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9 May 2005
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Mike Vandeman
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  1. Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much farther, in the same
    amount of time, than they can by walking. They also maintain constant pressure
    on land managers, to open more and more trails to bikes. Of course, all of these
    trails are already open to them, if they choose to walk. They also frequently
    claim that closing trails to bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could
    only be true if they were unable to walk. Of course, they are able to walk.
    There's nothing inherently wrong with bicycling instead of walking; we all like
    to save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle to replace automobile
    use is obviously beneficial. However, by the same token, replacing hiking with
    mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see, rather than the
    quality of their experience. While riding a bike, especially over terrain as
    rough as a trail, one has to be constantly paying attention to not crashing.
    That make it almost impossible to notice much else. By contrast, a hiker feels
    the ground, hears all the sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop
    instantly, if he/she finds something interesting. The brain thrives on
    stimulation. A biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker, to get the
    same stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to
    travel several times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several times as
    far as a motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail, especially a trail
    containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not familiar with, is very
    challenging. (But if mountain biking is the high point of your week, as it seems
    to be for many mountain bikers, you must be leading a pretty dull life, off of
    the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and competing with
    other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives people to spend more money on
    their bike, and ride it harder and more often. Racing, up to and including the
    Olympics, drives a lot of mountain biking. Of course, it is also extremely
    harmful to the parks and natural areas that are used for practice! It is hard to
    think of any other (legal) use of public lands, other than hunting, that is as
    harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the attraction for
    participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain bikes and mountain biking
    accessories, as well as "adventure" travel guides, make a lot of money from
    promoting mountain biking. Even some auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote
    and sponsor mountain biking, and try to use its popularity to sell more cars.
    The tourism industry also promotes mountain biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip into the soil,
    loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They also create V-shaped
    grooves that make walking difficult or even dangerous. The mechanical advantage
    given by the gears and ball bearings allow a mountain biker to travel several
    times as fast as a hiker. Given their increased weight (rider plus bike), this
    results in vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
    (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops, starts, and
    turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
    Mountain bikes were built much stronger than other bikes, so that they could
    withstand the greater forces they were subject to on rough trails. These same
    forces, therefore, are being applied to the trails! To give a definite number,
    the winner of a 20-mile race here in Briones Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the
    speed limit is 15 MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small animals and
    plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost impossible to avoid
    killing countless animals and plants on and under the trail. They have to pay
    attention to controlling the bike, and can't afford to look carefully at what is
    on the trail, especially when travelling fast. And even if they happen to see,
    for example, a snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it. A
    hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by crossing on
    stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other hand, simply ride right
    through the creek bed, crushing any animals or plants that happen to be there.
    Mountain biking magazines are full of photos of mountain bikers throwing up
    spray, as they barrel through creeks. Not only do bikes destroy animals and
    plants as they ride across streams, they ride through streams stirring up
    sediment. The sediment in the water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic
    life, for example, killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects, amphibians,
    and aquatic microorganisms are extremely sensitive to sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a hiker. This
    translates into several times the impacts, both on the trail and on the wildlife
    (to say nothing of the other trail users). Existing parklands are already
    inadequate to protect the wildlife that live there. When they are crisscrossed
    by mountain bikers and legal or illegal trails, their habitat becomes even more
    inadequate. Mountain bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more.
    Have you ever tried to walk that far in a day? In other words, allowing bikes in
    a park greatly increases human presence in that park and drives wildlife further
    from the resources that they need to survive, including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each other on narrow
    trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain biking also result in more
    habitat destruction, as trails are widened by bikers (or by hikers and
    equestrians jumping out of their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and consequently
    exotic plants, fungi, and other organisms from place to place, resulting in the
    spread of exotic invasive species, such as weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the trails and hence
    out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and equestrians fear for their safety,
    and don't enjoy sharing the trails with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that
    they are simply being selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually they have
    no problem sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that are
    a problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere, teach children and
    anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable. This
    undoubtedly has a negative effect on people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have been resorting
    to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a plastic matrix or other
    exotic material under the trail (e.g. in Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve,
    near Pleasanton, California)! It's hard to imagine that this will have a
    beneficial effect on the park and its wildlife….
    i. Allowing mountain bikes in a park greatly increases the damage to the trails,
    damage from "bootleg" (illegally created) trails, and the problems of conflicts
    between trail users, and hence the cost of maintaining the park. Considering how
    tight park budgets are, we can't afford the extra costs of policing, and
    repairing the damage from, mountain biking.
    j. For the science on mountain biking and its impacts on wildlife and people,
    see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental impact
    than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that make that claim, you
    find that they don't really compare the impacts of hiking and mountain biking,
    but only the impacts per foot. If, for a moment, we assume that the studies are
    correct in their having equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow that
    mountain biking has far greater impact per person, since mountain bikers
    typically travel so much farther than hikers. Besides overlooking distances
    travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on wildlife. And they don't
    study mountain biking under normal conditions -- only at a very slow speed.
    Actually, the comparison with hiking is irrelevant. It would only be relevant if
    we planned to allow only one of the two, and were considering which of the two
    is more harmful. In fact, no one is considering banning hiking. We are only
    considering adding mountain biking. Therefore, the only relevant question is,
    "Is mountain biking harmful"? (Of course, it is!) There is only one truly
    scientific study that I know of that compares the impacts of hiking and
    mountain biking. It found that mountain biking has a greater impact on elk than
    hiking (Wisdom, M. J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon, B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects
    of Off-Road Recreation on Mule Deer and Elk. Transactions of the North American
    Wildlife and Natural Resource Conference 69: in press.)

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for wildlife
    protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal Utility District
    (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California). They both restrict bicycles
    to paved roads, where they can't do much harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed
    to enjoy their sport for over a hundred years, without riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked open.
    Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out of the ground by
    mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails, but not
    mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to say this, apparently because they think
    it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that mountain bikers have exactly
    the same access to trails that everyone else has! It is only their bikes that
    are banned. If mountain bikers were really being discriminated against, they
    could easily go to court to gain access. However … they already have access to
    every trail in the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a taxpayer!
    The public has the right, through its elected representatives, to restrict how
    land is used. A federal court has already ruled that there is no right to
    mountain bike. It is a privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason
    (such as safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails (see
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction and trail
    maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat both directly (by
    killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by reducing the size of the
    intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover, mountain bikers favor trails that
    are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and full of obstacles that provide thrills for
    mountain bikers. Such designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the
    trail) and make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be necessary, if
    bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the main reason why trail
    maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by hikers require hardly any
    maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles to a park greatly increases its cost
    of maintenance. Nothing is really "free", including trail construction and
    maintenance. (How does the saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to quickly
    summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust in a cell phone,
    than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural areas are already one of the
    safest places you can be. In over 50 years of hiking and backpacking, I have
    never witnessed any situation requiring emergency aid. Most people go to natural
    areas partly for solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces
    of machinery, we would stay in the city!

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch? Hiking can
    already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and people. Mountain
    biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit. Mountain biking on level ground
    provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking. Since it's impossible
    to pay any attention to your surroundings while mountain biking (or you will
    crash), there's no reason to promote mountain biking. It benefits only those who
    stand to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and tour
    companies.

    12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars? So do walking, road
    cycling, and transit use, without harm to the natural environment. Since very
    few mountain biking opportunities are within easy bicycling distance, the vast
    majority of mountain bike trips require transporting the bike in a truck, SUV,
    or car. If mountain bikers cared about the environment, they would bicycle to
    the park, lock their bike at the trailhead, and hike. Or simply bicycle on paved
    roads, as bicyclists have for the past century.

    13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to other sources
    of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and maybe not. Mountain biking
    teaches people that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable, so it may lead
    to many other abuses. In parks, where most mountain biking is done, it is
    probably the most harmful activity allowed. But even if mountain biking is less
    damaging than another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage.
    If an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it okay to
    do additional damage? It doesn't!

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. * Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    same lies and half truths different day mikey. At least show some
    originality.

    Jason

    Vandeham FAQ: http://bbtc.org/php/show_page.php?page_id=32.

  3. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?


    Hiking can

    Quoted message said:

    already do that,

    with so many overweight kids in our society, I'd say every possible way to
    get them off the couch is a good thing. It doesnt seem that any one activity
    alone is doing the job very efectively. If anything we need to come up with
    and support more ways to get kids off the couch

    Quoted message said:

    without causing extra harm to wildlife and people.
    Mountain biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit.

    just the act of being on a bike and maintaining balance provides some
    exercise benifit. It may not be a lot but it's certainly more than sitting
    on a couch

    Quoted message said:

    Mountain biking on level ground
    provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking.

    I never find my heartrate substantialy elevated from walking, but mountain
    biking always gets the ticker going whether it be downhill, uphill or on
    level ground.

    Quoted message said:

    Since it's impossible
    to pay any attention to your surroundings while mountain biking (or you


    will

    Quoted message said:

    crash),

    Hmm, that's interesting, I've never had a problem paying attention to my
    surroundings while mountain biking

    Quoted message said:

    there's no reason to promote mountain biking.

    If it's another way to get kids of the couch there sure is. hiking alone
    doesnt seem to be doing the trick, even mountain biking, skatebording,
    hakeysack and countless other activities alone arent doing the trick. the
    more things that could potentialy get them out there the better.

    Quoted message said:

    It benefits only those who
    stand to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and


    tour

    Quoted message said:

    companies.

    Lets not forget the benefit to the people who participate in the sport and
    use it as way of keeping in shape. It also benifits the kids who arent
    teribly motivited to get of the couch and go hiking, but have a great time
    going out on their mountain bikes. different strokes....

    Jason

  4. On Mon, 09 May 2005 14:19:31 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>
    wrote in message <[email hidden]>:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mike Vandeman
    1. Why does Vandeman troll?
    Because he's a sad, bigoted, no-life with a guilt complex about the
    damage he causes by hiking and a pressing need to project that guilt
    onto a group he despises because of their obviously carefree enjoyment
    of the outdoors. He's supposed to be a psychologist, you'd have
    thought he'd have worked this out by now. Go figure.

    http://bbtc.org/php/show_page.php?page_id=32.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  5. Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to other sources
    of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and maybe not. Mountain biking
    teaches people that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable, so it may lead
    to many other abuses.

    That's one hypothesis - but totally unsubstantiated, unless you have
    some evidence you'd like to post. I'd propose an alternate hypothesis
    that mountain biking may encourage people who would otherwise not visit
    wildlife parks to appreciate nature and work for its protection. When
    you have some evidence to support your hypothesis over mine, feel free
    to post it.

    Quoted message said:

    In parks, where most mountain biking is done, it is
    probably the most harmful activity allowed.

    Again, where is your evidence? Of all the forest fires started every
    year, how many are caused by mountain bikers, and how many by, for
    example, hikers? Are you suggesting mountain biking is more destructive
    than forest fires?

    Quoted message said:

    But even if mountain biking is less
    damaging than another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage.
    If an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it okay to
    do additional damage? It doesn't!

    The issue is not whether damage is done, it is whether the damage level
    is sustainable. If I walk across my lawn I damage the grass but provided
    I do it infrequently enough the grass can recover. The problem is to
    ensure that mountain biking and other activities are done in such a way
    that the environment can support and recover from the activity - or are
    you suggesting that the environment can never recover from any mountain
    bike trail?

  6. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?


    Hiking can

    Quoted message said:

    already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and people.


    Mountain

    Quoted message said:

    biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit. Mountain biking on level


    ground

    Quoted message said:

    provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking.

    Your ignorance is showing, Mikey (yet again).

    According to the Compendium of Physical Activities* table of MET (metabolic
    equivalent) values, mountain biking requires 8.5 METs (i.e., 8.5 times the
    resting metabolic rate). This is equivalent to running at 5.1 mph (11:45 /
    mile).

    By way of comparison, walking at 4 mph (described as a "very brisk pace"😉
    only requires 5 METs.

    Bottom line: walking is a decent exercise (especially for beginning
    exercisers), and is certainly better than sitting on the couch. But,
    cycling is a much more efficient way to burn calories and strengthen one's
    aerobic system, than walking.

    * http://prevention.sph.sc.edu/tools/docs/documents_compendium.pdf

    --
    ~_-*
    ....G/ \G
    http://www.CycliStats.com
    CycliStats - Software for Cyclists

    Quoted message said:


    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  7. On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:19:26 -0300, Jason <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..* Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>:
    ..> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> March 5, 2004
    ..>
    ..
    ..
    ..same lies

    As usual, you aren't specific, because then you would be refuted. Put up or shut
    up.

    and half truths different day mikey. At least show some
    ..originality.
    ..
    ..Jason
    ..
    ..Vandeham FAQ: http://bbtc.org/php/show_page.php?page_id=32.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  8. On Mon, 9 May 2005 14:02:54 -0400, "slartibartfast" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..
    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email hidden]...
    ..> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> March 5, 2004
    ..
    ..<snip>
    ..
    ..> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    ..Hiking can
    ..> already do that,
    ..
    ..with so many overweight kids in our society, I'd say every possible way to
    ..get them off the couch is a good thing.

    Not if it does other harm, like harming wildlife!

    It doesnt seem that any one activity
    ..alone is doing the job very efectively. If anything we need to come up with
    ..and support more ways to get kids off the couch

    Then come up with an idea that isn't harmful to the environment.

    ..> without causing extra harm to wildlife and people.
    ..> Mountain biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit.
    ..
    ..just the act of being on a bike and maintaining balance provides some
    ..exercise benifit. It may not be a lot but it's certainly more than sitting
    ..on a couch

    Then they don't need to mountain bike. They can do that on the street.

    ..>Mountain biking on level ground
    ..> provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking.
    ..
    ..I never find my heartrate substantialy elevated from walking, but mountain
    ..biking always gets the ticker going whether it be downhill, uphill or on
    ..level ground.

    Try walking uphill.

    ..> Since it's impossible
    ..> to pay any attention to your surroundings while mountain biking (or you
    ..will
    ..> crash),
    ..
    ..Hmm, that's interesting, I've never had a problem paying attention to my
    ..surroundings while mountain biking

    See any of the videos at http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtbvideo.htm.

    ..> there's no reason to promote mountain biking.
    ..
    ..If it's another way to get kids of the couch there sure is. hiking alone
    ..doesnt seem to be doing the trick, even mountain biking, skatebording,
    ..hakeysack and countless other activities alone arent doing the trick. the
    ..more things that could potentialy get them out there the better.

    Then how about gang fights? Idiot.

    ..> It benefits only those who
    ..> stand to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and
    ..tour
    ..> companies.
    ..
    ..Lets not forget the benefit to the people who participate in the sport and
    ..use it as way of keeping in shape. It also benifits the kids who arent
    ..teribly motivited to get of the couch and go hiking, but have a great time
    ..going out on their mountain bikes. different strokes....

    It's quite expensive, compared to hiking. I'm not willing to sacrifice wildlife,
    just to titillate lazy kids.

    ..Jason
    ..

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  9. On Mon, 09 May 2005 21:12:55 +0200, BarryNL <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> March 5, 2004
    ..>
    ..> 13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to other sources
    ..> of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and maybe not. Mountain biking
    ..> teaches people that the rough treatment of nature is acceptable, so it may lead
    ..> to many other abuses.
    ..
    ..That's one hypothesis - but totally unsubstantiated, unless you have
    ..some evidence you'd like to post. I'd propose an alternate hypothesis
    ..that mountain biking may encourage people who would otherwise not visit
    ..wildlife parks to appreciate nature and work for its protection.

    That's already been proven FALSE: Just look at the lack of support for
    Wilderness and other wildlife protections.

    When
    ..you have some evidence to support your hypothesis over mine, feel free
    ..to post it.
    ..
    ..> In parks, where most mountain biking is done, it is
    ..> probably the most harmful activity allowed.
    ..
    ..Again, where is your evidence? Of all the forest fires started every
    ..year, how many are caused by mountain bikers, and how many by, for
    ..example, hikers? Are you suggesting mountain biking is more destructive
    ..than forest fires?

    I said "in parks".

    ..> But even if mountain biking is less
    ..> damaging than another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage.
    ..> If an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it okay to
    ..> do additional damage? It doesn't!
    ..
    ..The issue is not whether damage is done, it is whether the damage level
    ..is sustainable. If I walk across my lawn I damage the grass but provided
    ..I do it infrequently enough the grass can recover. The problem is to
    ..ensure that mountain biking and other activities are done in such a way
    ..that the environment can support and recover from the activity - or are
    ..you suggesting that the environment can never recover from any mountain
    ..bike trail?

    Right. Dead animals and plants don't "recover". Desert trails take DECADES to
    recover. Idiot.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  10. On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:14:42 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..
    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email hidden]...
    ..> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> March 5, 2004
    ..>
    ..> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    ..Hiking can
    ..> already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and people.
    ..Mountain
    ..> biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit. Mountain biking on level
    ..ground
    ..> provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking.
    ..
    ..Your ignorance is showing, Mikey (yet again).
    ..
    ..According to the Compendium of Physical Activities* table of MET (metabolic
    ..equivalent) values, mountain biking requires 8.5 METs (i.e., 8.5 times the
    ..resting metabolic rate). This is equivalent to running at 5.1 mph (11:45 /
    ..mile).
    ..
    ..By way of comparison, walking at 4 mph (described as a "very brisk pace"😉
    ..only requires 5 METs.
    ..
    ..Bottom line: walking is a decent exercise (especially for beginning
    ..exercisers), and is certainly better than sitting on the couch. But,
    ..cycling is a much more efficient way to burn calories and strengthen one's
    ..aerobic system, than walking.

    Nonsense. It is environmentally destructive and expensive, and ONLY provides
    exercise on the uphill part of the trail. Walking provides much safer exercise,
    ALL the time.

    ..* http://prevention.sph.sc.edu/tools/docs/documents_compendium.pdf

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  11. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:14:42 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>


    Quoted message said:


    .
    ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    .news:[email hidden]...
    .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    .> March 5, 2004
    .>
    .> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    .Hiking can
    .> already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and people.
    .Mountain
    .> biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit. Mountain biking on


    level

    Quoted message said:

    .ground
    .> provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking.
    .
    .Your ignorance is showing, Mikey (yet again).
    .
    .According to the Compendium of Physical Activities* table of MET


    (metabolic

    Quoted message said:

    .equivalent) values, mountain biking requires 8.5 METs (i.e., 8.5 times


    the

    Quoted message said:

    .resting metabolic rate). This is equivalent to running at 5.1 mph (11:45


    /

    Quoted message said:

    .mile).
    .
    .By way of comparison, walking at 4 mph (described as a "very brisk pace"😉
    .only requires 5 METs.
    .
    .Bottom line: walking is a decent exercise (especially for beginning
    .exercisers), and is certainly better than sitting on the couch. But,
    .cycling is a much more efficient way to burn calories and strengthen


    one's

    Quoted message said:

    .aerobic system, than walking.

    Nonsense. It is environmentally destructive and expensive, and ONLY


    provides

    Quoted message said:

    exercise on the uphill part of the trail. Walking provides much safer


    exercise,

    Quoted message said:

    ALL the time.

    [censored]. Over similar terrain, cycling takes more effort, and burns more
    calories than walking. If you have references that say otherwise, please
    post them. Otherwise, please refrain from posting more of your fantasies.

    GG

    Quoted message said:


    .* http://prevention.sph.sc.edu/tools/docs/documents_compendium.pdf

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  12. Mike Vandeman said:

    On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:14:42 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .
    ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    .news:[email hidden]...
    .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    .> March 5, 2004


    <[censored]>

    Quoted message said:

    Nonsense. It is environmentally destructive and expensive, and ONLY provides
    exercise on the uphill part of the trail. Walking provides much safer exercise,
    ALL the time.

    BS Liar. If two cyclists are each traversing the same length of ground
    and terrain, one at 2 miles per hour and the other is going 30 miles per
    hour, which one is burning more energy? DUH!

    Quoted message said:

    .* http://prevention.sph.sc.edu/tools/docs/documents_compendium.pdf

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

    ("pure habitat"😉.

  13. * Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:19:26 -0300, Jason <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .* Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>:
    .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    .> March 5, 2004
    .>
    .
    .
    .same lies

    As usual, you aren't specific, because then you would be refuted. Put up or shut
    up.

    Plane as the nose on your face Mike, if you'd read it you'd see the
    lies.

    Jason

  14. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 9 May 2005 14:02:54 -0400, "slartibartfast" <[email hidden]>


    Quoted message said:


    .
    .If it's another way to get kids of the couch there sure is. hiking alone
    .doesnt seem to be doing the trick, even mountain biking, skatebording,
    .hakeysack and countless other activities alone arent doing the trick. the
    .more things that could potentialy get them out there the better.

    Then how about gang fights? Idiot.

    Thanks Mikey, for proving just how unreasonable you are.

    Jason

  15. On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:53:13 -0400, "slartibartfast" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    ..
    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email hidden]...
    ..> On Mon, 9 May 2005 14:02:54 -0400, "slartibartfast" <[email hidden]>
    ..wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .
    ..> .If it's another way to get kids of the couch there sure is. hiking alone
    ..> .doesnt seem to be doing the trick, even mountain biking, skatebording,
    ..> .hakeysack and countless other activities alone arent doing the trick. the
    ..> .more things that could potentialy get them out there the better.
    ..>
    ..> Then how about gang fights? Idiot.
    ..
    ..Thanks Mikey, for proving just how unreasonable you are.

    No, YOU said that: "the more things that could potentialy get them out there the
    better"! Liar.

    ..Jason
    ..

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  16. On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:32:55 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email hidden]...
    ..> On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:14:42 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>
    ..wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .
    ..> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..> .news:[email hidden]...
    ..> .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> .> March 5, 2004
    ..> .>
    ..> .> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    ..> .Hiking can
    ..> .> already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and people.
    ..> .Mountain
    ..> .> biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit. Mountain biking on
    ..level
    ..> .ground
    ..> .> provides minimal exercise benefit, much less than walking.
    ..> .
    ..> .Your ignorance is showing, Mikey (yet again).
    ..> .
    ..> .According to the Compendium of Physical Activities* table of MET
    ..(metabolic
    ..> .equivalent) values, mountain biking requires 8.5 METs (i.e., 8.5 times
    ..the
    ..> .resting metabolic rate). This is equivalent to running at 5.1 mph (11:45
    ../
    ..> .mile).
    ..> .
    ..> .By way of comparison, walking at 4 mph (described as a "very brisk pace"😉
    ..> .only requires 5 METs.
    ..> .
    ..> .Bottom line: walking is a decent exercise (especially for beginning
    ..> .exercisers), and is certainly better than sitting on the couch. But,
    ..> .cycling is a much more efficient way to burn calories and strengthen
    ..one's
    ..> .aerobic system, than walking.
    ..>
    ..> Nonsense. It is environmentally destructive and expensive, and ONLY
    ..provides
    ..> exercise on the uphill part of the trail. Walking provides much safer
    ..exercise,
    ..> ALL the time.
    ..
    ..[censored]. Over similar terrain, cycling takes more effort, and burns more
    ..calories than walking. If you have references that say otherwise, please
    ..post them. Otherwise, please refrain from posting more of your fantasies.

    This was covered in a FERY FAMOUS article in "Scientific American" decades ago:
    the bicycle is the most energy-efficient form of transportation in the world.
    Even WALKING takes more energy. But that's OBVIOUS to everyone but a lying
    mountain biker. A typical mountain bike trip is, for example, 25 miles. Try
    WALKING that far! Idiots.

    ..GG
    ..
    ..>
    ..> .* http://prevention.sph.sc.edu/tools/docs/documents_compendium.pdf
    ..>
    ..> ===
    ..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    ..> humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    ..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    ..>
    ..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
    ..

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  17. On Tue, 10 May 2005 00:13:44 -0500, sremmus <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..> On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:14:42 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .
    ..> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..> .news:[email hidden]...
    ..> .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> .> March 5, 2004
    ..<[censored]>
    ..> Nonsense. It is environmentally destructive and expensive, and ONLY provides
    ..> exercise on the uphill part of the trail. Walking provides much safer exercise,
    ..> ALL the time.
    ..>
    ..
    ..BS Liar. If two cyclists are each traversing the same length of ground
    ..and terrain, one at 2 miles per hour and the other is going 30 miles per
    ..hour, which one is burning more energy? DUH!

    Good reasoning. NOT.

    ..> .* http://prevention.sph.sc.edu/tools/docs/documents_compendium.pdf
    ..>
    ..> ===
    ..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    ..> humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    ..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
    ..>
    ..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
    ..
    ..("pure habitat"😉.

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  18. On Tue, 10 May 2005 06:21:50 -0300, Jason <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..* Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>:
    ..> On Mon, 9 May 2005 12:19:26 -0300, Jason <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ..>
    ..> .* Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>:
    ..> .> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    ..> .> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    ..> .> March 5, 2004
    ..> .>
    ..> .
    ..> .
    ..> .same lies
    ..>
    ..> As usual, you aren't specific, because then you would be refuted. Put up or shut
    ..> up.
    ..>
    ..
    ..Plane as the nose on your face Mike, if you'd read it you'd see the
    ..lies.

    Your inability to quote any lies prove you are LYING. DUH!

    ..Jason

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  19. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 10 May 2005 10:53:13 -0400, "slartibartfast" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    .
    ."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    .news:[email hidden]...
    .> On Mon, 9 May 2005 14:02:54 -0400, "slartibartfast"


    <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    .wrote:
    .>
    .> .
    .> .If it's another way to get kids of the couch there sure is. hiking


    alone

    Quoted message said:

    .> .doesnt seem to be doing the trick, even mountain biking, skatebording,
    .> .hakeysack and countless other activities alone arent doing the trick.


    the

    Quoted message said:

    .> .more things that could potentialy get them out there the better.
    .>
    .> Then how about gang fights? Idiot.
    .
    .Thanks Mikey, for proving just how unreasonable you are.

    No, YOU said that: "the more things that could potentialy get them out


    there the

    Quoted message said:

    better"! Liar.

    But a reasonable person would have infered that I was talking about
    constructive activities, sory I was not specific enough for you. A
    reasonable person would also not resort to name calling. so twice you have
    proved just how unreasonable you are. Thanks

    Quoted message said:

    .Jason
    .

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  20. On Tue, 10 May 2005 15:20:35 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 9 May 2005 19:32:55 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    .[censored]. Over similar terrain, cycling takes more effort, and burns more
    .calories than walking. If you have references that say otherwise, please
    .post them. Otherwise, please refrain from posting more of your fantasies.

    This was covered in a FERY FAMOUS article in "Scientific American" decades ago:
    the bicycle is the most energy-efficient form of transportation in the world.
    Even WALKING takes more energy. But that's OBVIOUS to everyone but a lying
    mountain biker. A typical mountain bike trip is, for example, 25 miles. Try
    WALKING that far! Idiots.


    The Scientific American article was referring to road biking on a hard
    surface. It came out many, many years before off-road riding and
    mountain biking were even popularized. It was referring to commuting
    in an urban/suburban environment.

    It does not take being the world's foremost authority to think that
    there are differences in the physics of riding a road bike on pavement
    vs. riding mountain bike on dirt. If that article were written today
    and not "decades ago", it would likely include mountain bikes as
    another category.

    Having led many, many group bicycle trips on paved roads of many
    types, I can assure you that road bikes and mountain bikes vary quite
    a bit in their efficiency. Sports cars vs Jeeps, they do different
    things well. But you think that riding on the road mean wobbling
    around to annoy car traffic.

    Just a hint: there is a possibility that science, and human knowledge,
    have advanced and changed a bit in the last few decades. Surely
    someone who has reviewed ALL OF THE LITERATURE would be keeping up on
    newer studies, but you keep rehashing the same old ones, or point to
    your own articles on your own website as demonstrating proof of
    something. All you are proving is that you are an intellectual bully
    who is too lazy to actually work for his cause, other than by annoying
    people who think you are a joke.

    A typical mountain bike ride may not be 25 miles, but quite possibly
    less. Since you know everything about everything, I guess you want us
    to accept every little factoid you make up. Before this factoid is
    acceptable to rational people, you need to demonstrate actual proof
    from an outside source.

    BTW, most of the world's foremost authorities know how to spell the
    word "VERY" with a "V" not an "F". Guess you are so lazy you do not
    proofread what you write, and/or do not care if anyone takes you
    seriously. Since you believe you are better than everyone else, you
    should be able to hold to at least the same standards as you expect of
    others.

    You have amused me enough for today.

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    --
    At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

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