My technique - harumpf

Turby said:

I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
Popov:
http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8

Popov's stroke is perfect. It's a perfect stroke. Ask your coach. TI or
not TI. That is the question.

I was just thinking one day and I was wondering how long it would take
to swim across Pacific Ocean because I hope to do this before I am 65 (8
years). What should I eat beforehand, and how long before I start should
I eat it? And how can I keep my goggles from fogging up? Any thoughts?

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

I was just thinking one day and I was wondering how long it would take to
swim across Pacific Ocean because I hope to do this before I am 65 (8
years). What should I eat beforehand, and how long before I start should I
eat it? And how can I keep my goggles from fogging up? Any thoughts?

Dang! Here I was ready to solve all of your problems and then I realized my
answers concerned the Atlantic Ocean! Sorry.

I plan to eat a can of spaghettios.

Quoted message said:

I was just thinking one day and I was wondering how long it would take to
swim across Pacific Ocean because I hope to do this before I am 65 (8
years). What should I eat beforehand, and how long before I start should I
eat it? And how can I keep my goggles from fogging up? Any thoughts?

Dang! Here I was ready to solve all of your problems and then I realized my
answers concerned the Atlantic Ocean! Sorry.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:39:40 +0200, mwsmith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Turby said:

I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
Popov:
http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8

Popov's stroke is perfect. It's a perfect stroke. Ask your coach. TI or
not TI. That is the question.

I remember hearing about "bend your arm at the elbow and bring your
hand along your chest." Then I saw Popov and how he doesn't bend his
elbow until it's between his chest and his waist. I kept thinking,
maybe there's some magic movement that makes them move so much faster.
Now I see it's all those other little things that differentiate great
athletes from the rest of us.

Coach? What's a coach?

Quoted message said:

I was just thinking one day and I was wondering how long it would take
to swim across Pacific Ocean because I hope to do this before I am 65 (8
years). What should I eat beforehand, and how long before I start should
I eat it? And how can I keep my goggles from fogging up? Any thoughts?

Lynne Cox only swam what, 2 miles to get across the Pacific Ocean when
she swam the Bering Strait? The LJ Cove swim club swims to Scammons
Lagoon (in Baja, Mex,) every year. Not really, but by keeping track of
their mileage. It's ~4500 miles from San Francisco to Tokyo. Over 8
years that's a little more than 1.5 miles per day. You can do it.

I know nossink about eating. I've never paid attention to that stuff
about "don't eat 30 minutes before swimming or you'll get cramps."
Hell, years ago, we'd bring a can of beer out to the lineup when we
were bodysurfing.

Like Duncan, I always leave a bit of water in my mask. When it starts
to fog, I tilt my head to slosh the water around, and voila.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

_ said:

As for Popov having a "perfect stroke" - if that were true (a "perfect
stroke" existing, and he having it), then the science of swimming technique
has ended - all we would have to do is get everyone to swim with exactly
the same motions as he did.

No, that IS silly. That would be a very stupid thing to do. I'm glad you
aren't a coach.

_ said:

Turby said:

I remember hearing about "bend your arm at the elbow and bring your
hand along your chest." Then I saw Popov and how he doesn't bend his
elbow until it's between his chest and his waist. I kept thinking,
maybe there's some magic movement that makes them move so much faster.
Now I see it's all those other little things that differentiate great
athletes from the rest of us.

Popov's stroke worked for him, in those events, against the competition
then facing him. It is not what differentiated him from "lesser" athletes,
it is what differentiated him from _different_ athletes.

Not sure what you mean by "lesser," since I didn't use that word. If
you mean lesser moral stature, or athletes who didn't exert as much
effort, I certainly agree with you. But Popov's achievments, like all
other superior athletes, is what differentiates him. Effort alone does
not make a superior athlete. It certainly takes training and
technique, but it also requires certain physical attributes that a
person is either born with or not. Reflexes, vision, bone structure,
and a variety of other attributes that won't change, no matter what a
person does. If effort and training alone were all that separates the
great from the rest of us, there would be a lot more Tony Gwynns,
Tiger Woods, Michael Jordans, etc. But there aren't.

(FWIW, competitive drive is one attribute of great athletes. That's
something I'm totally lacking. I have absolutely zero desire to
compete with anyone in anything. I'd just like to get a little more
efficient, a little better at what I do.)

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

On 29 Jul,

_ said:

As for Popov having a "perfect stroke" - if that were true (a "perfect
stroke" existing, and he having it), then the science of swimming technique
has ended - all we would have to do is get everyone to swim with exactly
the same motions as he did. This is obviously silly, and you can safely
ignore anyone who advises you so; they clearly do not have more than a
superficial acquaintance with swimming technique.

If Popov had a 'perfect stroke' it would be symmetrical. His elbow bend seems
to be different with each arm (regardless of his breathing style), presumably
matching up with his physical make up. It worked for him. It probably would
not match anyone elses physiology.

It is probably very close to the 'perfect stroke' for him.

--
BD
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was just thinking one day and I was wondering how long it would take
to
swim across Pacific Ocean because I hope to do this before I am 65 (8
years). What should I eat beforehand, and how long before I start should
I eat it? And how can I keep my goggles from fogging up? Any thoughts?

Dang! Here I was ready to solve all of your problems and then I realized
my answers concerned the Atlantic Ocean! Sorry.

I plan to eat a can of spaghettios.

Surely you mean you plan to eat the contents of a can of spaghettios.

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I was just thinking one day and I was wondering how long it would take
> to
> swim across Pacific Ocean because I hope to do this before I am 65 (8
> years). What should I eat beforehand, and how long before I start should
> I eat it? And how can I keep my goggles from fogging up? Any thoughts?
Dang! Here I was ready to solve all of your problems and then I realized
my answers concerned the Atlantic Ocean! Sorry.

I plan to eat a can of spaghettios.

Surely you mean you plan to eat the contents of a can of spaghettios.

I'm odd.

Quoted message said:

On 29 Jul,

_ said:

As for Popov having a "perfect stroke" - if that were true (a "perfect
stroke" existing, and he having it), then the science of swimming technique
has ended - all we would have to do is get everyone to swim with exactly
the same motions as he did. This is obviously silly, and you can safely
ignore anyone who advises you so; they clearly do not have more than a
superficial acquaintance with swimming technique.

If Popov had a 'perfect stroke' it would be symmetrical.

No, you associate symmetry with perfection.

Quoted message said:

His elbow bend seems
to be different with each arm (regardless of his breathing style), presumably
matching up with his physical make up. It worked for him. It probably would
not match anyone elses physiology.

It is probably very close to the 'perfect stroke' for him.

Well, that's what we mean by a perfect stroke.

"Turby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
Popov:
http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8

Damn. It's pretty much what I already do. So, why do these guys swim
more than twice as fast as I do? Freakin' animals.

FWIW, I'm strictly an open ocean swimmer. I do it to keep in shape for
serious bodysurfing. I've been a water person for >50 years, but only
in the past couple of years have I felt the need to actually work out.
I usually swim with fins, mask and snorkle because I like to look at
all the sealife below me while I swim, and turning my head to breathe
all the time is a pain in the neck. I'm getting in about 7 miles a
week now, in 4-5 days of swimming. Today I timed a measured mile
without fins for the first time. 38 minutes. That's OK for a 59 year
old guy, I guess, but the winner of last year's La Jolla Rough Water
did it in 17 minutes and 38 seconds! If my technique ain't that bad,
I guess I'm going to have to work a lot harder.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Example is the best coach. If you are a La Jolla swimmer, watch the best
ones there. Carol Sing used to swim there and her technique is a near
perfect example to follow.
Anyway, if you're 59, and only swimming for fitness, is technique that
important to you? If you refuse to turn your head and give up the snorkel,
you'll never improve anyway.

Duncan Heenan said:

"Turby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
Popov:
http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8

Damn. It's pretty much what I already do. So, why do these guys swim
more than twice as fast as I do? Freakin' animals.

FWIW, I'm strictly an open ocean swimmer. I do it to keep in shape for
serious bodysurfing. I've been a water person for >50 years, but only
in the past couple of years have I felt the need to actually work out.
I usually swim with fins, mask and snorkle because I like to look at
all the sealife below me while I swim, and turning my head to breathe
all the time is a pain in the neck. I'm getting in about 7 miles a
week now, in 4-5 days of swimming. Today I timed a measured mile
without fins for the first time. 38 minutes. That's OK for a 59 year
old guy, I guess, but the winner of last year's La Jolla Rough Water
did it in 17 minutes and 38 seconds! If my technique ain't that bad,
I guess I'm going to have to work a lot harder.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Example is the best coach. If you are a La Jolla swimmer, watch the best
ones there. Carol Sing used to swim there and her technique is a near
perfect example to follow.

She's still here, but I almost never see her. Our schedules are
different. It's a little tough to see a person's technique when
they're heading out to sea though, rather than a few feet away in a
pool. There are plenty of others around who are good resources I can
impose on. The benefit of the net, though, is that you can draw on
wisdom from around the world, and possibly find better, more current,
more knowlegable sources than local "experts."

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if you're 59, and only swimming for fitness, is technique that
important to you?

Not really. But when I was young, I could get through large surf with
stamina and power. As I age, efficiency becomes more important.

Quoted message said:

If you refuse to turn your head and give up the snorkel,
you'll never improve anyway.

Why on earth do you say that? Are you saying that no matter how I
change my stroke or kick, those changes will be negated by a snorkel?
Sounds a bit obtuse to me. The only downside I can see to a snorkel is
drag. The snorkel I use has an extra large tube and mouth opening. It
doesn't restrict my breathing much at all. One benefit is I don't
waste energy twisting my head all the time, and my head stays in the
correct attitude.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Turby said:

Duncan Heenan said:

"Turby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
Popov:
http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8

Damn. It's pretty much what I already do. So, why do these guys swim
more than twice as fast as I do? Freakin' animals.

FWIW, I'm strictly an open ocean swimmer. I do it to keep in shape for
serious bodysurfing. I've been a water person for >50 years, but only
in the past couple of years have I felt the need to actually work out.
I usually swim with fins, mask and snorkle because I like to look at
all the sealife below me while I swim, and turning my head to breathe
all the time is a pain in the neck. I'm getting in about 7 miles a
week now, in 4-5 days of swimming. Today I timed a measured mile
without fins for the first time. 38 minutes. That's OK for a 59 year
old guy, I guess, but the winner of last year's La Jolla Rough Water
did it in 17 minutes and 38 seconds! If my technique ain't that bad,
I guess I'm going to have to work a lot harder.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Example is the best coach. If you are a La Jolla swimmer, watch the best
ones there. Carol Sing used to swim there and her technique is a near
perfect example to follow.

She's still here, but I almost never see her. Our schedules are
different. It's a little tough to see a person's technique when
they're heading out to sea though, rather than a few feet away in a
pool. There are plenty of others around who are good resources I can
impose on. The benefit of the net, though, is that you can draw on
wisdom from around the world, and possibly find better, more current,
more knowlegable sources than local "experts."

It's not like there have been huge advances in stroke technology for us
normal people.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if you're 59, and only swimming for fitness, is technique that
important to you?

Not really. But when I was young, I could get through large surf with
stamina and power. As I age, efficiency becomes more important.

I usually go through large surf by going under it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you refuse to turn your head and give up the snorkel,
you'll never improve anyway.

Why on earth do you say that? Are you saying that no matter how I
change my stroke or kick, those changes will be negated by a snorkel?

I think your air intake is severely limited by a snorkel. They aren't
made for swimming hard. I could be wrong, but I've never been able to
breath well while swimming hard with a snorkel. For one thing, the
snorkel stays filled with air you just exhaled, and you just breath it
in again. I would say if you don't build up an oxygen debt swimming hard
with a snorkel, you're not swimming very hard.

Quoted message said:

Sounds a bit obtuse to me. The only downside I can see to a snorkel is
drag. The snorkel I use has an extra large tube and mouth opening. It
doesn't restrict my breathing much at all. One benefit is I don't
waste energy twisting my head all the time, and my head stays in the
correct attitude.

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:19:38 +0200, mwsmith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Turby said:

Duncan Heenan said:

"Turby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
> there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
> coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
> Popov:
> http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8
>
> Damn. It's pretty much what I already do. So, why do these guys swim
> more than twice as fast as I do? Freakin' animals.
>
> FWIW, I'm strictly an open ocean swimmer. I do it to keep in shape for
> serious bodysurfing. I've been a water person for >50 years, but only
> in the past couple of years have I felt the need to actually work out.
> I usually swim with fins, mask and snorkle because I like to look at
> all the sealife below me while I swim, and turning my head to breathe
> all the time is a pain in the neck. I'm getting in about 7 miles a
> week now, in 4-5 days of swimming. Today I timed a measured mile
> without fins for the first time. 38 minutes. That's OK for a 59 year
> old guy, I guess, but the winner of last year's La Jolla Rough Water
> did it in 17 minutes and 38 seconds! If my technique ain't that bad,
> I guess I'm going to have to work a lot harder.
>
> --
> Turby the Turbosurfer
Example is the best coach. If you are a La Jolla swimmer, watch the best
ones there. Carol Sing used to swim there and her technique is a near
perfect example to follow.

She's still here, but I almost never see her. Our schedules are
different. It's a little tough to see a person's technique when
they're heading out to sea though, rather than a few feet away in a
pool. There are plenty of others around who are good resources I can
impose on. The benefit of the net, though, is that you can draw on
wisdom from around the world, and possibly find better, more current,
more knowlegable sources than local "experts."

It's not like there have been huge advances in stroke technology for us
normal people.

Dang. And I'd been so hoping. (The 1500 free men's record has dropped
by ~3.5 minutes or ~19% in itty bitty increments since I learned how
to swim.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyway, if you're 59, and only swimming for fitness, is technique that
important to you?

Not really. But when I was young, I could get through large surf with
stamina and power. As I age, efficiency becomes more important.

I usually go through large surf by going under it.

unh yeah. I misspoke. What I meant was, when an outside set appears,
it's a scramble to get out to it. FWIW, this is what I'm talking
about. I'm at the 1:10 to 1:15 mark.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you refuse to turn your head and give up the snorkel,
you'll never improve anyway.

Why on earth do you say that? Are you saying that no matter how I
change my stroke or kick, those changes will be negated by a snorkel?

I think your air intake is severely limited by a snorkel. They aren't
made for swimming hard. I could be wrong, but I've never been able to
breath well while swimming hard with a snorkel. For one thing, the
snorkel stays filled with air you just exhaled, and you just breath it
in again. I would say if you don't build up an oxygen debt swimming hard
with a snorkel, you're not swimming very hard.

I've certainly gone through a bunch of "chokers" to find one that lets
me breathe freely. I think it's a Riffe, not sure of the model. The
fact that I can swim a mile in a respectable time for my age group
without stopping to catch my breath says it works. One consideration
is that without a snorkel, you have only a very limited time to
inhale. It's basically a gasp for air. With a snorkel, I have all the
time I need to breathe deeply, easily purging the snorkel.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

Turby said:

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:19:38 +0200, mwsmith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Turby said:

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:27:57 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> "Turby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> I started lurking here, hoping to find help on my technique. Not much
>> there - most of you tend to say, "ask your coach." Sorry, ain't got no
>> coach. So, I went looking online. Found a few like this of Alexander
>> Popov:
>> http://tinyurl.com/2b3lp8
>>
>> Damn. It's pretty much what I already do. So, why do these guys swim
>> more than twice as fast as I do? Freakin' animals.
>>
>> FWIW, I'm strictly an open ocean swimmer. I do it to keep in shape for
>> serious bodysurfing. I've been a water person for >50 years, but only
>> in the past couple of years have I felt the need to actually work out.
>> I usually swim with fins, mask and snorkle because I like to look at
>> all the sealife below me while I swim, and turning my head to breathe
>> all the time is a pain in the neck. I'm getting in about 7 miles a
>> week now, in 4-5 days of swimming. Today I timed a measured mile
>> without fins for the first time. 38 minutes. That's OK for a 59 year
>> old guy, I guess, but the winner of last year's La Jolla Rough Water
>> did it in 17 minutes and 38 seconds! If my technique ain't that bad,
>> I guess I'm going to have to work a lot harder.
>>
>> --
>> Turby the Turbosurfer
> Example is the best coach. If you are a La Jolla swimmer, watch the best
> ones there. Carol Sing used to swim there and her technique is a near
> perfect example to follow.
She's still here, but I almost never see her. Our schedules are
different. It's a little tough to see a person's technique when
they're heading out to sea though, rather than a few feet away in a
pool. There are plenty of others around who are good resources I can
impose on. The benefit of the net, though, is that you can draw on
wisdom from around the world, and possibly find better, more current,
more knowlegable sources than local "experts."

It's not like there have been huge advances in stroke technology for us
normal people.

Dang. And I'd been so hoping. (The 1500 free men's record has dropped
by ~3.5 minutes or ~19% in itty bitty increments since I learned how
to swim.)

Those aren't normal people. And they don't use snorkels.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Anyway, if you're 59, and only swimming for fitness, is technique that
> important to you?
Not really. But when I was young, I could get through large surf with
stamina and power. As I age, efficiency becomes more important.

I usually go through large surf by going under it.

unh yeah. I misspoke. What I meant was, when an outside set appears,
it's a scramble to get out to it. FWIW, this is what I'm talking
about. I'm at the 1:10 to 1:15 mark.

That's pretty fast, if you mean 100 meters. It's not bad for 100 yards
at your age either.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> If you refuse to turn your head and give up the snorkel,
> you'll never improve anyway.
Why on earth do you say that? Are you saying that no matter how I
change my stroke or kick, those changes will be negated by a snorkel?

I think your air intake is severely limited by a snorkel. They aren't
made for swimming hard. I could be wrong, but I've never been able to
breath well while swimming hard with a snorkel. For one thing, the
snorkel stays filled with air you just exhaled, and you just breath it
in again. I would say if you don't build up an oxygen debt swimming hard
with a snorkel, you're not swimming very hard.

I've certainly gone through a bunch of "chokers" to find one that lets
me breathe freely. I think it's a Riffe, not sure of the model. The
fact that I can swim a mile in a respectable time for my age group
without stopping to catch my breath says it works. One consideration
is that without a snorkel, you have only a very limited time to
inhale. It's basically a gasp for air. With a snorkel, I have all the
time I need to breathe deeply, easily purging the snorkel.

There is no time problem. I suspect you are rebreathing used air in the
snorkel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

unh yeah. I misspoke. What I meant was, when an outside set appears,
it's a scramble to get out to it. FWIW, this is what I'm talking
about. I'm at the 1:10 to 1:15 mark.

That's pretty fast, if you mean 100 meters. It's not bad for 100 yards
at your age either.

I think he means that his body surfing is at the 1:10 mark of the
youtube video.

Eric

ee said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

unh yeah. I misspoke. What I meant was, when an outside set appears,
it's a scramble to get out to it. FWIW, this is what I'm talking
about. I'm at the 1:10 to 1:15 mark.

That's pretty fast, if you mean 100 meters. It's not bad for 100 yards
at your age either.

I think he means that his body surfing is at the 1:10 mark of the
youtube video.

oops! And here I thought I was being a swell guy.

On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 22:29:28 +0200, mwsmith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

ee said:

Quoted message said:

> unh yeah. I misspoke. What I meant was, when an outside set appears,
> it's a scramble to get out to it. FWIW, this is what I'm talking
> about. I'm at the 1:10 to 1:15 mark.
That's pretty fast, if you mean 100 meters. It's not bad for 100 yards
at your age either.

I think he means that his body surfing is at the 1:10 mark of the
youtube video.

bingo.

Quoted message said:

oops! And here I thought I was being a swell guy.

Well, that's not out of the realm of possibility.

--
Turby the Turbosurfer

"Turby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:27:57 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you refuse to turn your head and give up the snorkel,
you'll never improve anyway.

Why on earth do you say that? Are you saying that no matter how I
change my stroke or kick, those changes will be negated by a snorkel?
Sounds a bit obtuse to me. The only downside I can see to a snorkel is
drag. The snorkel I use has an extra large tube and mouth opening. It
doesn't restrict my breathing much at all. One benefit is I don't
waste energy twisting my head all the time, and my head stays in the
correct attitude.

Hey, you little two timer you.... AS too quiet?

If you want to improve your swim times for the mile, drop the snorkel
and find some decent goggles, you can still see the leopard
sharks and rays, and the drag is more than you would think.

Going out for long slow swims watching the fish is excellent for your
health, but to get faster you just got to swim harder more. In
the lineup most of your swimming is kicking with those monster
UDTs, so you got to adapt the arms to do more of the work,
as well as just overall specific adaption to faster swimming.

Almost all swimmers get faster by doing tons of intervals, you
can do that in the cove, just swim series of very hard swims
broken up with good technique rest swims, you can go
from underwater landmark to underwater landmark and
they can vary in distance and speed. Interval work is especially
good for us geezers.

I haven't seen you swim other than in the lineup, but I would
bet that you have very little body roll as you rely mostly on
the wheels for propulsion, and especially since you don't breath
sideways using snorkel in the cove swims. Body roll helps
a lot, allows you to extend more, it's more hydrodynamic and
mechanically efficient.

BTW, saw J.S. other day, she says to say hi.

What do you want to swim faster for? That wave takes you as
fast as you want to go!

After a few years swimming out thru mountains of whitewater
to get outside at OB in SF, I learned to dolphin really well
underwater. The norcal winter sets are closer together, I could get
under multiple 8ft piles of whitewater much more efficiently.
I could get out there where boards were denied and where there
was no rip.