My wheel building skills

andresmuro said:

I have built a few wheels here and there. they stay trued and work ok
for a while, however:

I used to have a wheel with mavic reflex rims (single eyelet) for
several years. Eventually, the wheel started cracking evenly around the
nipple holes. I replaced the rim with a campy cone shaped rim that
seems to be holding fine. I also replaced a rim on a different wheel
years ago with a used box section rim (double eyelet) that looked good.
When I was done the rim had cracked on the base of the side wall
adjacent to the nipples evenly all around. I looked as if the side
walls would eventually separate from the base of the rim. I also had
another wheel with mavic cxp 21 rim that lasted a couple of years. Last
week I noticed that one of the nipples was going through the hole which
had cracked. I also took the rim out and replaced it with a new dt rim
(single eyelet) that the local shop sold me. It was the only choice.

these wheels in which the rims broke, I had stressed relieved and I had
made sure that the spokes seem to have ok tension. I don't have a spoke
tensiometer so I go by feel. However, with the wheel that I rebuilt
last week with the dt rim, I am concerned that I may be putting too
much tension and that the nipples will crack the rim again.
Coincidentally, with the double eyelet rim I cracked the rim by the
base and with the single or no eyelet rims I cracked them by the holes

I guess that I should take the wheel to the bike shop and check the
spoke tension. However, I am wondering if I am putting to much tension
and I am cracking rims. I don't seem to be forcing the nipples
tightening them so tight that they are about to explode. Is there a way
I can sort of get a sense of what is too tight w/o a tensiometer? BTW,
these wheels have been 32 spoked rear wheels.

First, Campag rims are pretty famous for failing like you saw. BUT the
only way to see what the tension is is to get a tensionometer. Most
rims, like DT, are happy with 100 kgf right side rear and front and if
it's too high, you may pull an eyelet out. The Park one works fine. if
you are going to build wheels, a truing stand, a dishing tool, a quiver
of spoke wrenches and a tensionometer are required, IMO.

Quoted message said:

THX,

Andres

In article <[email hidden]>,
"andresmuro" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I guess that I should take the wheel to the bike shop and check the
spoke tension. However, I am wondering if I am putting to much tension
and I am cracking rims. I don't seem to be forcing the nipples
tightening them so tight that they are about to explode. Is there a way
I can sort of get a sense of what is too tight w/o a tensiometer? BTW,
these wheels have been 32 spoked rear wheels.

The confound here is that if you are using anodized rims or
single-eyelet or non-eyeletted (is that a word) rims , they are more
prone to cracking. It may not be your wheel building skills but bad rim
design and execution.

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"andresmuro" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I guess that I should take the wheel to the bike shop and check the
spoke tension. However, I am wondering if I am putting to much tension
and I am cracking rims. I don't seem to be forcing the nipples
tightening them so tight that they are about to explode. Is there a way
I can sort of get a sense of what is too tight w/o a tensiometer? BTW,
these wheels have been 32 spoked rear wheels.

The confound here is that if you are using anodized rims or
single-eyelet or non-eyeletted (is that a word) rims , they are more
prone to cracking. It may not be your wheel building skills but bad rim
design and execution.

Thanks, Peter and Tim. I have spoke wrenches and a stand, and I have
built and trued wheels here and there for many years. However, I don't
intend to build them or repair them regularly except for when they
break, which should not be that often. For this reason, I haven't
gotten a tensiometer. I'll stop by the bike shop this weekend and see
if my tension is ok. If it isn't, I'll back them up one turn.

BTW, I ordered a new spare pair of 36 dt spoked wheels with cheap hubs
and alex a22 rims from bikedirectbikes on ebay. they were 75 bucks for
the set, and with plenty of spokes, so I am sure that they'll last a
while. I am still planning to touch them up and stress releive them. Do
you know if alex rims can handle the tension, or will they crack at the
eyelet with too much tension?

The same store has vuleta xrp wheelsets with 24 bladed spokes front and
rear for 100 bucks. the rims are 30 mm deep. they are on the heavy
side, but I was thinking of getting a pair for triathlons and also
touch them up and stress releive them. Do you think that they'll be ok?
Thanks,

Andres

andresmuro said:

I have built a few wheels here and there. they stay trued and work ok
for a while, however:

I used to have a wheel with mavic reflex rims (single eyelet) for
several years. Eventually, the wheel started cracking evenly around
the nipple holes. I replaced the rim with a campy cone shaped rim that
seems to be holding fine. I also replaced a rim on a different wheel
years ago with a used box section rim (double eyelet) that looked
good. When I was done the rim had cracked on the base of the side wall
adjacent to the nipples evenly all around. I looked as if the side
walls would eventually separate from the base of the rim. I also had
another wheel with mavic cxp 21 rim that lasted a couple of years.
Last week I noticed that one of the nipples was going through the
hole which had cracked. I also took the rim out and replaced it with
a new dt rim (single eyelet) that the local shop sold me. It was the
only choice.

these wheels in which the rims broke, I had stressed relieved and I
had made sure that the spokes seem to have ok tension. I don't have a
spoke tensiometer so I go by feel. However, with the wheel that I
rebuilt last week with the dt rim, I am concerned that I may be
putting too much tension and that the nipples will crack the rim
again. Coincidentally, with the double eyelet rim I cracked the rim
by the base and with the single or no eyelet rims I cracked them by
the holes

I guess that I should take the wheel to the bike shop and check the
spoke tension. However, I am wondering if I am putting to much tension
and I am cracking rims. I don't seem to be forcing the nipples
tightening them so tight that they are about to explode. Is there a
way I can sort of get a sense of what is too tight w/o a tensiometer?
BTW, these wheels have been 32 spoked rear wheels.

THX,

Andres

Are your spokes ever getting loose by themselves?
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"andresmuro" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I guess that I should take the wheel to the bike shop and check the
spoke tension. However, I am wondering if I am putting to much tension
and I am cracking rims. I don't seem to be forcing the nipples
tightening them so tight that they are about to explode. Is there a way
I can sort of get a sense of what is too tight w/o a tensiometer? BTW,
these wheels have been 32 spoked rear wheels.

The confound here is that if you are using anodized rims or
single-eyelet or non-eyeletted (is that a word) rims , they are more
prone to cracking.

but tim, we have people on this group praising velocity rims to the
skies for their crack resistance, and they're both non-eyeletted /and/
anodized....

Quoted message said:

It may not be your wheel building skills but bad rim
design and execution.

Phil said:

Are your spokes ever getting loose by themselves?
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

No.

Andres

jim beam said:

but tim, we have people on this group praising velocity rims to the
skies for their crack resistance, and they're both non-eyeletted /and/
anodized....

the velocity rims vary. some are anodized, some are powder coated. some
have eyelets and some don't.

i've had a non-eyeletted blue anodized aerohead fail...but it was a rim
i had already dinged, so that's not a fair assesment. i've been very
happy with the powder coated deep-V, i've never had one of those fail.

i've had numerous mavic (reflex, open pro) failures.

andresmuro said:

The same store has vuleta xrp wheelsets with 24 bladed spokes front and
rear for 100 bucks. the rims are 30 mm deep. they are on the heavy
side, but I was thinking of getting a pair for triathlons and also
touch them up and stress releive them. Do you think that they'll be ok?

Good luck touching them up and stress relieving. Consider that the
spokes are bladed, fun to grip. Consider also that 24 is very few and
you will need a lot of tension and there will be a lot of windup and
they will not be easy to work with.

Are you competitive enough in triathlons that getting more aero wheels
will bring you bigger prize money? If not, stick at most with aero rims
but keep the spoke count reasonable and conventional, if you intend to
muck around with them yourself.

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"andresmuro" <[email hidden]> wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I guess that I should take the wheel to the bike shop and check the
spoke tension. However, I am wondering if I am putting to much tension
and I am cracking rims. I don't seem to be forcing the nipples
tightening them so tight that they are about to explode. Is there a way
I can sort of get a sense of what is too tight w/o a tensiometer? BTW,
these wheels have been 32 spoked rear wheels.

The confound here is that if you are using anodized rims or
single-eyelet or non-eyeletted (is that a word) rims , they are more
prone to cracking. It may not be your wheel building skills but bad rim
design and execution.

Don't really agree. If a no eyelet or single eyelet rim is built
properly, that is, not more than 100 kgf where it is needed, then the
rim/wheel will be fine. I don't think double eyelet rims are a panacea
for cracking, nor do single, no eyelet mean cracking. I have seen far
more OpenPros and Mavic double eyelet MTB rims crack/pull eyelets out
than Velocity Aerohead/Fusion/Deep Vs.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

i've had numerous mavic (reflex, open pro) failures.

What form did these failures take? An Open Pro rider would like to
know. ;-)

Luke

Luke said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

i've had numerous mavic (reflex, open pro) failures.

What form did these failures take? An Open Pro rider would like to
know. ;-)

if you followthe discussions here it's been documented quite often. the
rim cracks around the spoke holes and the spokes pull through. some
attribute this to the anodization.

the problem is the overall rim design, since as jim beam and others
have noted some anodized non-eyeletted rims are quite reliable.

Quoted message said:

Luke said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

i've had numerous mavic (reflex, open pro) failures.

What form did these failures take? An Open Pro rider would like to
know. ;-)

if you followthe discussions here it's been documented quite often. the
rim cracks around the spoke holes and the spokes pull through. some
attribute this to the anodization.

the problem is the overall rim design, since as jim beam and others
have noted some anodized non-eyeletted rims are quite reliable.

actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension. if
you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear" you're in trouble.
if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe. a $60 tensiometer is
all it takes. or if you're musical, trawl sheldon's site on how to do
it by pitch.

jim beam said:

actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension. if
you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear" you're in trouble.
if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe.

if you're talking about mavic, the open pro and reflex rims fail even
when built to low tensions. i've also seen a few ksyrium rim cracks as
well. those rims aren't even drilled through, the nipple is screwed
into the rim, yet those fail as well. they are simply not designed
well.

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension. if
you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear" you're in trouble.
if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe.

if you're talking about mavic, the open pro and reflex rims fail even
when built to low tensions. i've also seen a few ksyrium rim cracks as
well. those rims aren't even drilled through, the nipple is screwed
into the rim, yet those fail as well. they are simply not designed
well.

did you build with a tensiometer? what is your spoke tension?

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension. if
you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear" you're in trouble.
if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe.

if you're talking about mavic, the open pro and reflex rims fail even
when built to low tensions. i've also seen a few ksyrium rim cracks as
well. those rims aren't even drilled through, the nipple is screwed
into the rim, yet those fail as well. they are simply not designed
well.

did you build with a tensiometer? what is your spoke tension?

on the ones i built -- who knows, but if the "proper tension" means the
spokes loosen while riding -- that's not a good design. the ksyriums
were built by mavic.

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

jim beam wrote:

>actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension. if
>you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear" you're in trouble.
>if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe.

if you're talking about mavic, the open pro and reflex rims fail even
when built to low tensions. i've also seen a few ksyrium rim cracks as
well. those rims aren't even drilled through, the nipple is screwed
into the rim, yet those fail as well. they are simply not designed
well.

did you build with a tensiometer? what is your spoke tension?

on the ones i built -- who knows,

in other words, you built with excess tension. why should a
manufacturer have to design for people that can't follow instructions?
that's like arguing that car manufacturers should be at fault when
incompetents put oil in the coolant hole and coolant in the oil hole.

Quoted message said:

but if the "proper tension" means the
spokes loosen while riding -- that's not a good design.

see above.

Quoted message said:

the ksyriums
were built by mavic.

yes, and the lower order of bike shop monkeys, having read "the book"
feel they need to "help" pre-built wheels by increasing tension to "as
high as the rim can bear". that ain't no manufacturer spec.

jim beam said:

actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension.

Actually, it seems to track at least as much with the use of heavy
straight gauge spokes as anything else...the willow, not the oak...

Quoted message said:

if you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear"
you're in trouble.

Actually, if you're in trouble, it indicates the tensionis _higher_ than
the rim can bear, at least with that particular spoke gauge.

Quoted message said:

if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe.

Sorry, what planet did you say you were from? ;-)

I have never seen a "manufacturer spec" for spoke tension supplied by
_any_ rim manufacturer...but then again, I've only been building wheels
for 45 years.

Sheldon "That Would Make It Too Easy" Brown
+------------------------------------------+
| Athletic scholarships are a corrupting |
| cancer on the U.S. educational system. |
+------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

jim beam said:

actually, rim cracking is usually caused by excess spoke tension.

Actually, it seems to track at least as much with the use of heavy
straight gauge spokes as anything else...the willow, not the oak...

Quoted message said:

if you build with "tension as high as the rim can bear"

Quoted message said:

you're in trouble.

Actually, if you're in trouble, it indicates the tensionis _higher_ than
the rim can bear, at least with that particular spoke gauge.

Quoted message said:

if you build to manufacturer spec, you're safe.

Sorry, what planet did you say you were from? ;-)

I have never seen a "manufacturer spec" for spoke tension supplied by
_any_ rim manufacturer...but then again, I've only been building wheels
for 45 years.

then, with respect sheldon, you've never called 1-888-go-mavic and
asked. i've found them to be very helpful for specs on every rim in
their range, including older rims and pre-builts. sun answer similar
inquiries. peter chisholm mysteriously managed to ascertain velocity's
tension specs - i know not how. presumably he used similar secret means
to park when they compiled the following:

http://parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=128

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "That Would Make It Too Easy" Brown

when you're done, why don't you tabulate the results and ask damon to
add them to spoke calc?

Quoted message said:

+------------------------------------------+
| Athletic scholarships are a corrupting |
| cancer on the U.S. educational system. |
+------------------------------------------+

no, grade inflation is a far bigger problem.

Quoted message said:

Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

I have never seen a "manufacturer spec" for spoke tension supplied by
_any_ rim manufacturer...but then again, I've only been building wheels
for 45 years.

then, with respect sheldon, you've never called 1-888-go-mavic and
asked. i've found them to be very helpful for specs on every rim in
their range, including older rims and pre-builts. sun answer similar
inquiries. peter chisholm mysteriously managed to ascertain velocity's
tension specs - i know not how. presumably he used similar secret means
to park when they compiled the following:

http://parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=128

The Park tool page only lists pre-built wheels. It doesn't list
recommended tensions for any rims.