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New Brooks B17 Conditioning Question

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5 September 2006
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  1. I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
    will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

    TIA - Jay

  2. Quoted message said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
    will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

    TIA - Jay

    Jay, I am exactly the same height and weight as you and have broken in
    two Brooks saddles, a B-17 and a Champion Flyer. I only used the
    Proofhide and don't overdo it, a little goes a long ways. Be sure to
    put some on the underside if you're going to ride without fenders and
    think you might get caught out in the rain sometime. Both my Brooks
    were comfortable right from the start and only got better as I rode
    them more. I think you'll like your saddle a lot.

    Smokey

  3. Per [email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    I currently have 3 B17's on as many bikes.

    No break-in on any of them, but I put the recommended wax-based goop on them
    periodically.

    OTOH, I once bought a B-17 variant (can't remember the Brooks name) and it was
    like rock. Absolutely no hope, IMHO, and I sent it back to Wallingford for a
    refund. Seemed to me like they used some sort of process/impregnation on the
    leather on that one.
    --
    PeteCresswell

  4. Quoted message said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?

    No, there is no consensus. I used Neatsfoot Oil on both my Swift and
    Professional. The Professional is perfect, but the Swift became too
    soft for me (still rideable, but I wish I hadn't done it). I think the
    thicker leather on the Professional made the difference. Both are
    stilll cosmetically and physically fine in other respects after 3-4k
    miles.

    -Vee

  5. Per (PeteCresswell):

    Quoted message said:

    Absolutely no hope, IMHO, and I sent it back to Wallingford for a
    refund. Seemed to me like they used some sort of process/impregnation on the
    leather on that one.

    I think that what I'm trying to say here is that if it's not reasonably
    comfortable out of the box, send it back.
    --
    PeteCresswell

  6. Quoted message said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in.

    It should be comfy from day one after just a couple miles. It should be
    a little nicer on day two.

    Don't use any oil or conditioners EVER on a b17. Clear shoe polish or
    wax for horse tack is fine, as it sits on the surface. Fenders are
    really a must, but you can put shoe polish or their overpriced
    proprietary stuff on the bottom.

    They fit some butts so hopefully it's a good interface, but don't void
    wallbike's fantastic money back guarantee by putting futile goop on it.

    I rode b17s and Flyers for years, before I tried a really nice plastic
    shelled saddle. I'll never go back to the inconsistency of leather, but
    it sure looks nice.

    Oh, and despite what folks say, the tension nut is there for a reason.
    With a few thousand miles per year, mine were getting turned one turn
    per year for several years, and no ridge developed, they just stayed
    firm. Of course, if the saddle feels right, don't mess with it.

  7. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    Once you put oil in a stretched leather saddle you cannot
    undo it, so be very hesitant. Oil makes the saddle soft,
    and common sense will tell you that that is a good thing.
    'Tis'nt so.

    I have never put oil on a saddle. My very old and very new
    Brooks saddles are identical in that knocking on them with
    my knuckle gives a hollow wood block sound. The test is
    not how the saddle feels to your hand, it is how it feels
    to the base of your spine. Put your ischeal tuberosities
    on the sweet spot of the saddle and feel what happens as
    you roll over road bumps. The leather gives way and does
    not rebound vigorously. The leather buffers the road
    shock, rather than your spinal discs.

    Here is how I maintain the saddle with Proofide. Put the
    saddle inverted under an ordinary 100 watt incandescent
    light bulb, and put a good coating of Proofide on the
    underside. Leave it overnight. The proofide migrates all
    the way out to the riding surface. Wipe and ride wearing
    black knickers. Some new saddles have had the saturation
    treatment at the factory. This is evident by a waxy fog on
    the riding surface.

    As for `breaking in', I do not see it. I put a brand new
    Brooks Professional on a new bike and it felt the same to
    me as the 15 year old saddle on the older bike.

    --
    Michael Press

  8. On 5 Sep 2006 16:55:43 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    I put some Proofhide on each of my two B-17s before use -- top and
    bottom, polish off the top. Neither was ever uncomfortable. The
    honey one was good at 100 miles, great at 500. (Alas, 10,000 miles
    and 5 years later, I'm afraid I overtightened it, and it may need to
    be replaced.) The newer black B-17 was comfortable immediately, and
    disappeared from tactile sensory notification by 100 miles.

    I feel sorry for those people whose ass doesn't fit a Brooks.

    Pat

    Email address works as is.

  9. Hi Michael,

    You are right; I am mainly concerned that whatever I might do to
    condition my new saddle cannot be undone. That would be really
    depressing.

    I think when my new saddle arrives, I will just attach it and go for a
    ride. My commute is relatively short, so adjustments can be made
    easily, as time goes on.

    I think I did my homework on this purchase, but I now have as many
    questions as answers. Hey- that happens sometimes!

    Thanks to all for the thoughtful replies - this thread is far from
    closed...

    - Jay

    Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    Once you put oil in a stretched leather saddle you cannot
    undo it, so be very hesitant. Oil makes the saddle soft,
    and common sense will tell you that that is a good thing.
    'Tis'nt so.

    I have never put oil on a saddle. My very old and very new
    Brooks saddles are identical in that knocking on them with
    my knuckle gives a hollow wood block sound. The test is
    not how the saddle feels to your hand, it is how it feels
    to the base of your spine. Put your ischeal tuberosities
    on the sweet spot of the saddle and feel what happens as
    you roll over road bumps. The leather gives way and does
    not rebound vigorously. The leather buffers the road
    shock, rather than your spinal discs.

    Here is how I maintain the saddle with Proofide. Put the
    saddle inverted under an ordinary 100 watt incandescent
    light bulb, and put a good coating of Proofide on the
    underside. Leave it overnight. The proofide migrates all
    the way out to the riding surface. Wipe and ride wearing
    black knickers. Some new saddles have had the saturation
    treatment at the factory. This is evident by a waxy fog on
    the riding surface.

    As for `breaking in', I do not see it. I put a brand new
    Brooks Professional on a new bike and it felt the same to
    me as the 15 year old saddle on the older bike.

    --
    Michael Press

  10. Quoted message said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
    will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

    TIA - Jay

    Jay,
    neetsfoot oil works with repeated applications. Turn the bike or
    saddle upside down and use a 1" paint brush to brush a liberal amount
    on the entire raw leather. Repeat this 6 to 15 times and letting it
    soak in overnight between applications. After the first 3 or 4 ride
    thesaddle to work the oil in. If,by some miracle it gets too soft
    tighten the bolt underrneath the nose of the saddle. The oil also
    protects the lather from water damage.

    To prevent saddle sores Chamois Butter works well when applied to the
    rider and the chamois. Synthetic chamois is less comfortable than
    natural chamois. Ordinary materials need to be smooth to reduce
    friction. After the first 10,000 miles one gets used to untreated
    saddles. the oil speeds things up.

    froggy

  11. Like tubulars versus clinchers, how wheels support a load, hydration and
    what have you, Brooks saddles are high in mythtique.

    They're just saddles. It's not really a big deal. The myths, as
    always, come from not taking a practical and systematic approach.

    Brooks saddles are wider than most current saddles, and instead of
    relying on padding for comfort they rely on flexing of the top. For
    many people this works well, for some it doesn't. YBMV.

    Don't do anything to it other than a light dressing top and bottom with
    Proofide or Obenauf's. If you live in a wet part of the world, consider
    dubbin which is a bit more water repellent (in the U.S., serious hunting
    clothing stores will have dubbin). Don't soak it in neatsfoot oil, that
    just ruins the leather and will leave your shorts soaked in oil for many
    rides. I don't know why Sheldon would recommend that. It's just a bad
    idea. IIRC Lon Haldeman recommends soaking a new Brooks in motor oil
    overnight. Jeepers. He reportedly replaces his saddle every couple of
    years, so no surprise there. I don't do these things to my saddles, and
    they last for years. I have a Brooks Pro which I bought in 1977 or 1978
    and still use on most rides. I've probably ridden over 100,000 miles on
    that saddle.

    If the leather becomes too soft, either through over-oiling or through
    soaking in rainwater while riding, a central ridge will form and the
    saddle will become- in the immortal words of Jobst Brandt- an ass
    hatchet. If you ride in the rain, cover the saddle especially if you
    don't have fenders. A plastic bag looks funny but works fine and is
    easy to carry on days which might include rain.

    Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
    understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with a
    pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose piece with
    tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and supports your weight
    by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic saddles are either rigid
    and use padding for comfort, or a combination of shell flex and padding.
    The Brooks just uses flex to provide comfort by suspending the rider
    between the nose piece and the rear frame.

    Now look at it from the side. Notice that the rear deck of the saddle
    is wide and fairly flat, like sitting on a park bench. It is also
    raised above the neck of the saddle, which is intended to keep your
    weight on your sit bones and off your peri area so that you are not
    compressing the nerves and blood vessels to your genitals.

    This tells you a lot about how to set the saddle up. The leather
    flexes, the steel doesn't. So don't sit on the steel! Lots of people
    set up Brooks saddles too far forward, and thus they sit on the steel
    rear frame rather than on the flexible leather in front of the steel
    frame. Ouch. You want your sit bones to be about an inch ahead of the
    steel rear frame, so that you get the benefits of the flex. This means
    that you may need to set a Brooks farther back than your current saddle.
    That, in turn, means you may need to buy a seatpost with more setback
    because Brooks saddles have short rails. Check where you sit on your
    current saddle and use that as a gauge for setting the fore-aft position
    of the saddle. Measure from your handlebars to the sit bone dents on
    your current saddle, and then use that measurement to set the Brooks so
    that this point is about 1 inch ahead of the Brooks's rear frame. You
    may need to tweak the saddle forwards or backwards to maximize comfort.

    Now, remember that the rear deck of the saddle is higher? IMHO the best
    starting point for setting the saddle angle is to have the rear deck
    about 5 mm higher than the nose of the saddle. That gets your naughty
    bits off the saddle slightly. Put the bike on level ground and use a
    long carpenter's level to set the angle.

    Ride the bike. You'll probably feel like you're sliding downhill
    towards the handlebars. It'll take some getting used to, but your brain
    will learn to keep you positioned by using your legs. You will need to
    gently tweak the angle of the saddle and the fore-aft position to
    maximize your comfort. It'll take a few weeks, probably to get it
    dialed in. And it'll take a couple weeks to break the saddle in. B.17s
    break in quickly (for me, they are comfortable out of the box).

    Now, as to saddle model. This page lists the lengths and widths of the
    various Brooks saddles:

    http://www.wallbike.com/brooks/standardsaddles.html

    If you sit fairly upright, the B.17 or one of the "S" models might suit
    you best. The "S" stands for "short" and are usually considered
    "women's" saddles. There is no reason that men can't use them and I
    have known men who do, quite comfortably. However, it is possible that
    the short nose may not offer enough support for your boys and may leave
    'em hanging, if you know what I mean. If you have lower bars and lean
    forward quite a bit, then the B.17 or even a Pro might be a better
    choice. If you buy your saddle from Wallingford Bikes (wallbike.com),
    talk to them. They help people pick saddles a lot and have gotten quite
    good at it, by reputation.

    My favorite saddle is the Brooks Pro. I find the B.17 a smidge too
    wide. But the B.17 is by far the most popular Brooks saddle.

    Hope this helps!

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    neetsfoot oil works with repeated applications. Turn the bike or
    saddle upside down and use a 1" paint brush to brush a liberal amount
    on the entire raw leather. Repeat this 6 to 15 times and letting it
    soak in overnight between applications. After the first 3 or 4
    ride thesaddle to work the oil in. If,by some miracle it gets too
    soft tighten the bolt underrneath the nose of the saddle.

    This is a recipe for a ruined Brooks saddle.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
    will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

    TIA - Jay

    My first Brooks was a B17N a few years ago. It broke in fairly quickly,
    I was comfortable on it within 100 miles or so. It took considerably
    longer for the leather to become soft, but it didn't take too long for
    the saddle to shape itself to me.

    I just recent got a Brooks Professional, which is proving to be a bit
    tougher. I've had it for 200 to 300 miles now, and it is still feels
    hard.

    I've only used proofhide on them.

  14. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Tim McNamara said:

    Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
    understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with a
    pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose piece with
    tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and supports your weight
    by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic saddles are either rigid
    and use padding for comfort, or a combination of shell flex and padding.
    The Brooks just uses flex to provide comfort by suspending the rider
    between the nose piece and the rear frame.

    The saddle flexes to buffer road shock, yes. There is one
    refinement to this description. The ischeal tuberosities
    penetrate into the leather when riding over road bumps,
    and this temporary deformation of the leather into dimples
    absorbs a surprising amount of shock.

    --
    Michael Press

  15. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Mark Heiple said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
    will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

    TIA - Jay

    My first Brooks was a B17N a few years ago. It broke in fairly quickly,
    I was comfortable on it within 100 miles or so. It took considerably
    longer for the leather to become soft, but it didn't take too long for
    the saddle to shape itself to me.

    I just recent got a Brooks Professional, which is proving to be a bit
    tougher. I've had it for 200 to 300 miles now, and it is still feels
    hard.

    I've only used proofhide on them.

    Position is important. Find a place to ride where you can
    devote most of your attention to sensing you riding
    position. Put your ischeal tuberosities in the sweet spot
    of the saddle. Adjust the saddle as necessary.

    The saddle should not feel soft to the hand. It is there
    to support a goodly fraction of your body weight over a
    small fraction of your body. The pressures are large, and
    the saddle is designed to flex and deform under these
    pressures.

    --
    Michael Press

  16. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Michael Press said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Tim McNamara said:

    Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
    understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with
    a pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose
    piece with tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and
    supports your weight by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic
    saddles are either rigid and use padding for comfort, or a
    combination of shell flex and padding. The Brooks just uses flex
    to provide comfort by suspending the rider between the nose piece
    and the rear frame.

    The saddle flexes to buffer road shock, yes. There is one refinement
    to this description. The ischeal tuberosities penetrate into the
    leather when riding over road bumps, and this temporary deformation
    of the leather into dimples absorbs a surprising amount of shock.

    I have no way of measuring or observing that. I just know that I find
    Brooks Pro saddles the most comfortable, being comfortable for well over
    100 miles and comfortable enough up to 380 miles in a weekend.

    My next saddle of choice is the Lepper Voyageur, which is very similar
    in construction, but with hollow steel rails and frame. There have been
    a lot of complaints of breakage of the saddle rails, but thus far I have
    not had any problem. Perhaps I just got lucky, or it's an issue of seat
    post clamp design, or overtightening the clamp. Who knows.

  17. Thanks for the detailed reply, Tim!

    (Hopefully you can just cut-and-paste for the next guy with a similar
    question.)

    I think this discussion has definitively answered the question of why
    the industry has migrated from proper leather saddles to (whatever
    composite / gel /etc.) SEATS. Leather saddles require a little EFFORT
    and THOUGHT on the part of the rider/owner. They also require a little
    time spent with the prospective bike owner at bike sale time, by a bike
    salesman who probably has little more than a friendly smile working for
    him (little technical knowledge of saddles or any other bike
    components). So this is just another example of our USA society/culture
    being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

    I have a farm/ranch background, and as far as I know, saddles for
    horses are still exclusively made of leather. I'm thinkin', there must
    be a good reason for this, since those guys are riding for days /
    weeks, in all kinds of weather. They can't be obsessed with whether it
    will rain or not. Leather must be a time-tested material for quality
    saddles (horse or bike).

    OK, there I go preaching again. I promise to stop sometime in the
    future.

    - Jay

    Tim McNamara said:

    Like tubulars versus clinchers, how wheels support a load, hydration and
    what have you, Brooks saddles are high in mythtique.

    They're just saddles. It's not really a big deal. The myths, as
    always, come from not taking a practical and systematic approach.

    Brooks saddles are wider than most current saddles, and instead of
    relying on padding for comfort they rely on flexing of the top. For
    many people this works well, for some it doesn't. YBMV.

    Don't do anything to it other than a light dressing top and bottom with
    Proofide or Obenauf's. If you live in a wet part of the world, consider
    dubbin which is a bit more water repellent (in the U.S., serious hunting
    clothing stores will have dubbin). Don't soak it in neatsfoot oil, that
    just ruins the leather and will leave your shorts soaked in oil for many
    rides. I don't know why Sheldon would recommend that. It's just a bad
    idea. IIRC Lon Haldeman recommends soaking a new Brooks in motor oil
    overnight. Jeepers. He reportedly replaces his saddle every couple of
    years, so no surprise there. I don't do these things to my saddles, and
    they last for years. I have a Brooks Pro which I bought in 1977 or 1978
    and still use on most rides. I've probably ridden over 100,000 miles on
    that saddle.

    If the leather becomes too soft, either through over-oiling or through
    soaking in rainwater while riding, a central ridge will form and the
    saddle will become- in the immortal words of Jobst Brandt- an ass
    hatchet. If you ride in the rain, cover the saddle especially if you
    don't have fenders. A plastic bag looks funny but works fine and is
    easy to carry on days which might include rain.

    Be systematic about setting up your Brooks. First, look at it and
    understand how it works. There is a fairly rigid steel frame with a
    pair of saddle rails, a C shaped rear frame and a steel nose piece with
    tensioning bolt. The leather is under tension, and supports your weight
    by flexing as you sit on it. Modern plastic saddles are either rigid
    and use padding for comfort, or a combination of shell flex and padding.
    The Brooks just uses flex to provide comfort by suspending the rider
    between the nose piece and the rear frame.

    Now look at it from the side. Notice that the rear deck of the saddle
    is wide and fairly flat, like sitting on a park bench. It is also
    raised above the neck of the saddle, which is intended to keep your
    weight on your sit bones and off your peri area so that you are not
    compressing the nerves and blood vessels to your genitals.

    This tells you a lot about how to set the saddle up. The leather
    flexes, the steel doesn't. So don't sit on the steel! Lots of people
    set up Brooks saddles too far forward, and thus they sit on the steel
    rear frame rather than on the flexible leather in front of the steel
    frame. Ouch. You want your sit bones to be about an inch ahead of the
    steel rear frame, so that you get the benefits of the flex. This means
    that you may need to set a Brooks farther back than your current saddle.
    That, in turn, means you may need to buy a seatpost with more setback
    because Brooks saddles have short rails. Check where you sit on your
    current saddle and use that as a gauge for setting the fore-aft position
    of the saddle. Measure from your handlebars to the sit bone dents on
    your current saddle, and then use that measurement to set the Brooks so
    that this point is about 1 inch ahead of the Brooks's rear frame. You
    may need to tweak the saddle forwards or backwards to maximize comfort.

    Now, remember that the rear deck of the saddle is higher? IMHO the best
    starting point for setting the saddle angle is to have the rear deck
    about 5 mm higher than the nose of the saddle. That gets your naughty
    bits off the saddle slightly. Put the bike on level ground and use a
    long carpenter's level to set the angle.

    Ride the bike. You'll probably feel like you're sliding downhill
    towards the handlebars. It'll take some getting used to, but your brain
    will learn to keep you positioned by using your legs. You will need to
    gently tweak the angle of the saddle and the fore-aft position to
    maximize your comfort. It'll take a few weeks, probably to get it
    dialed in. And it'll take a couple weeks to break the saddle in. B.17s
    break in quickly (for me, they are comfortable out of the box).

    Now, as to saddle model. This page lists the lengths and widths of the
    various Brooks saddles:

    http://www.wallbike.com/brooks/standardsaddles.html

    If you sit fairly upright, the B.17 or one of the "S" models might suit
    you best. The "S" stands for "short" and are usually considered
    "women's" saddles. There is no reason that men can't use them and I
    have known men who do, quite comfortably. However, it is possible that
    the short nose may not offer enough support for your boys and may leave
    'em hanging, if you know what I mean. If you have lower bars and lean
    forward quite a bit, then the B.17 or even a Pro might be a better
    choice. If you buy your saddle from Wallingford Bikes (wallbike.com),
    talk to them. They help people pick saddles a lot and have gotten quite
    good at it, by reputation.

    My favorite saddle is the Brooks Pro. I find the B.17 a smidge too
    wide. But the B.17 is by far the most popular Brooks saddle.

    Hope this helps!

  18. Hi Michael,

    You are right, some tweaking will be required. I am prepared to do
    this. My reward will be a handsome leather saddle (appreciated by those
    in the know), and a comfortable ride for many years to come.

    - Jay

    Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Mark Heiple said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted post said:

    I am anxiously awaiting delivery of a Brooks B17 CS
    http://www.wallbike.com/b17cscopper.html . My stock OEM Velo seat is
    not terribly uncomfortable for rides less than 30 minutes, but any
    longer than that, I suspect I am sitting on a piece of junk. I am not
    in terrible pain at that point, but there is some discomfort. I am
    6'4", 225lbs. I use this bike mainly to commute on city streets, 5
    miles twice daily.

    I am trying to get a feel for how many people have trouble adjusting to
    new Brooks saddles. There are certainly many previous threads in RBT
    about Brooks saddles. Some people report they can use these saddles
    with little or no break-in. Others report that no matter what they do,
    they can't get used to the saddle, despite their best efforts at
    conditioning the leather.

    Sheldon Browne suggests the fastest way to break in a new leather
    saddle is to *soak* it in neatsfoot oil
    http://www.sheldonbrown.com/leather.html . I already ordered the
    Proofide, so I could do that as an alternative.

    When I get new stuff, I like to use it without unnecessary delay. Is
    there a consensus on the best method to condition a new Brooks B17?
    Hopefully overnight will be long enough. (I know there will be ongoing
    maintenance and rain-awareness.)

    I am really excited about this new bike enhancement. I'm not sure I
    will *ever* get this Pocket Tourist exactly right...

    TIA - Jay

    My first Brooks was a B17N a few years ago. It broke in fairly quickly,
    I was comfortable on it within 100 miles or so. It took considerably
    longer for the leather to become soft, but it didn't take too long for
    the saddle to shape itself to me.

    I just recent got a Brooks Professional, which is proving to be a bit
    tougher. I've had it for 200 to 300 miles now, and it is still feels
    hard.

    I've only used proofhide on them.

    Position is important. Find a place to ride where you can
    devote most of your attention to sensing you riding
    position. Put your ischeal tuberosities in the sweet spot
    of the saddle. Adjust the saddle as necessary.

    The saddle should not feel soft to the hand. It is there
    to support a goodly fraction of your body weight over a
    small fraction of your body. The pressures are large, and
    the saddle is designed to flex and deform under these
    pressures.

    --
    Michael Press

  19. Per Tim McNamara:

    Quoted message said:

    My next saddle of choice is the Lepper Voyageur, which is very similar
    in construction, but with hollow steel rails and frame.

    Does measure any wider than a B-17?
    --
    PeteCresswell

  20. Quoted message said:

    Thanks for the detailed reply, Tim!

    (Hopefully you can just cut-and-paste for the next guy with a similar
    question.)

    I think this discussion has definitively answered the question of why
    the industry has migrated from proper leather saddles to (whatever
    composite / gel /etc.) SEATS.

    No, if it is one of the roughly wedge shaped things on an upright
    bicycle, it is a SADDLE.

    This is a proper SEAT:
    <http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df9.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/&h=600&w=800&sz=118&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=hKubCMOgJWf6ZM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddragonflyer%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff>.

    Quoted message said:

    ...
    I have a farm/ranch background, and as far as I know, saddles for
    horses are still exclusively made of leather....

    The last time I checked, horses are exclusively covered in leather. 😉

    --
    Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain

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