New cycling road design danger

have come across a couple of these locally, but we dont even get the bike 'rat-run' 🙁

perhaps a extension-concrete barrier running parallel with curb, starting at last corner of said triangle that you pass (as you are leaving schicanery) and dividing you from swerving/chianing oncoming cars???

as per most raod things, they are designed by feckin fools in brown suits, sitting behind desks, inside offices.
As long as it looks good in powerpoint, an overhead view or on a aerial photograph, such ameliorating nonsense like a SIGHTVISIT™ should never be considered 🙄

sorry. bit grumpy

Be worth making a submission with photos, diagrams etc
make sure the pics clearly illustrate where/how cars are out of place or conflicting. It's hard to argue with a thousand words...

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<SNIP>

Quoted message said:

Be worth making a submission with photos, diagrams etc
make sure the pics clearly illustrate where/how cars are out of place
or conflicting. It's hard to argue with a thousand words...

Or video for that matter.

Have also noticed the ones locally have no rat run for cyclists.

On 2006-04-05, flyingdutch (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

perhaps a extension-concrete barrier running parallel with curb,
starting at last corner of said triangle that you pass (as you are
leaving schicanery) and dividing you from swerving/chianing oncoming
cars???

Something at least higher than a gutter such that someone coming in
way too hot won't mount it and collect the cyclist. Maybe, for
enonomic reasons, a metal handrail barrier type thing would have to
do.

Quoted message said:

as per most raod things, they are designed by feckin fools in brown
suits, sitting behind desks, inside offices.
As long as it looks good in powerpoint, an overhead view or on a aerial
photograph, such ameliorating nonsense like a SIGHTVISIT should never
be considered 🙄

You know you have been doing UNIX too long, when you look at
SIGHTVISIT, and try to work out what circumstance you would want to
send a HT VISIT signal. kill -1 -SIGBLAM!

--
TimC
All Tims are illusions, except for Lunch Tim, who is doubly so.
--screwtape on RHOD

DeF said:

Progress Drive in Perth (south of river, parallel
to North Lake Road, runs past Bibra Lake and southern
half is part of Bibra Lake TT circuit).

To discourage drivers using this road as a rat run,
new traffic calming devices have been added. Basically,
there are two right angle triangles (viewed from above)
about 3m long with their hypotenuse aligned with the
kerb. This renders the middle of the road wide enough
for one car that must drive through a small chicane.
One direction has priority with the other direction
seeing a give way sign. For cyclists, there is a
gutter run to the left of these obstacles. All well
and good so far.

Now the problem. If you arrive at one of these things
around the same time as a car (as has happened to me),
you go through the gutter run and the car goes through
the middle. The big problem occurs when cyclist and
car merge again: cyclist is going straight, car is
heading towards kerb whilst turning to be parallel to
the road again after passing through the chicane.
Cyclist looks right and sees grill of said car heading
towards them. This is somewhat unnerving.

Anyone else seen these things and/or like to comment?
I think a letter to someone is appropriate here before
some poor sod gets knocked off by an impatient driver
pushing the envelope of this "traffic calming" device.
Especially if it is a 4WD with [censored] cornering capabilities.

DeF.

Yes, there are quite a few of them in Melbourne, including several close
to where I live, I don't use those roads much. Chicanes designed by
engineers for cars are frequently death-traps and should be treated warily.

ray said:

Yes, there are quite a few of them in Melbourne, including several close
to where I live, I don't use those roads much. Chicanes designed by
engineers for cars are frequently death-traps and should be treated warily.

I don't find them to be a problem. Just like roundabouts, ride through
the middle just like a car. Then they have to give way to you. What's
the difference between this and any other chokepoint? I don't get it
....

Bleve's right. Common practice here (Brissie) is to put your right arm
out some distance before and move to the middle of the lane. Make the
frickin car wait while you go through. After all, they have to slow to
your speed anyway, if the chicanes are tight.

Donga

Simple and safer answer to this is not to use the 'rat run' and go through the squeeze point as you would if you were driving a car, take the lane and nobody can interfere with you.

CC

Bleve said:

I don't find them to be a problem. Just like roundabouts, ride through
the middle just like a car. Then they have to give way to you. What's
the difference between this and any other chokepoint? I don't get it
....

the problem is they put you in a position of playing 'chicken' with a car!
Drivers invariably do the ol 'idiot-math™' (ie me-car + them-bike = me_must_go_faster!) and try and beat you into the dang chicane, even if you are IN the damn thing!!!!
Cars travelling same direction are fine(ish), its the oncoming ones that are a problem. 'My' chicane is in backstreet just north of Kew Safeway/Junction area...

flyingdutch said:

Bleve said:

I don't find them to be a problem. Just like roundabouts, ride
through
the middle just like a car. Then they have to give way to you.
What's
the difference between this and any other chokepoint? I don't get it
....

the problem is they put you in a position of playing 'chicken' with a
car!
Drivers invariably do the ol 'idiot-math™' (ie me-car + them-bike =
me_must_go_faster!) and try and beat you into the dang chicane, even if
you are IN the damn thing!!!!

You can see them coming though. It's not like you're being sideswiped
or u-turned or lane-pressed. Try Rooks Rd (Mitcham) for that game 🙂

Quoted message said:

Cars travelling same direction are fine(ish), its the oncoming ones
that are a problem. 'My' chicane is in backstreet just north of Kew
Safeway/Junction area...

And the difference between that and a roundabout is? I'm sorry, I have
never found these chicanes to be a major problem - but I don't see
having to occasionally yield to a car in a tight spot as being a huge
drama. *shrug* I guess I'm just bothering to look ahead and not
expecting everyone else to do the Right Thing. 🙂

Where I live there's dozens of these things. There's fights worth
having, and then there's whinging about something that's just not a big
deal. Thse fit neatly into the "no big deal" basket, IMO. CF the
tramstops on Whitehorse Rd near Box Hill. Now *they* are something to
get upset about. The exit lane from the back path through the first
one (eastbound) drops a rider off at a blinded left hand corner with
the implication that the lane is safe to ride. *very* dangerous. BV I
think (before your time there Dutchy) did get some changes made - the
back lane at least now exists, but these are still a dangerous
chokepoint with a misleadingly dangerous path behind them (and metal
grates .. try them on a wet night :-/ )

Slighly OT, is BV (Dutchy 🙂 ) at all interested in a safe/defensive
riding guide or video? Has it been done already? I've a few ideas for
one if it hasn't.

Bleve said:

flyingdutch said:

Drivers invariably do the ol 'idiot-math (ie me-car + them-bike =
me_must_go_faster!) and try and beat you into the dang chicane, even if
you are IN the damn thing!!!!

You can see them coming though. It's not like you're being sideswiped
or u-turned or lane-pressed. Try Rooks Rd (Mitcham) for that game 🙂

*shudder* I'd rather not. I've driven up it a few times -- not often,
considering how close it is to my home, but enough to know that I'm
*never* taking my bike through there.

Fortunately, it's not really on any direct route that I'm likely to need
to take on the bike.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@ to usenet".

Stuart Lamble said:

Quoted message said:

You can see them coming though. It's not like you're being sideswiped
or u-turned or lane-pressed. Try Rooks Rd (Mitcham) for that game 🙂

*shudder* I'd rather not. I've driven up it a few times -- not often,
considering how close it is to my home, but enough to know that I'm
*never* taking my bike through there.

I ride it regularly. You just have to be assertive and alert to those
that might not want to play by the rules. Ie: where the road chokes
from 2 to 1 after the railway line (next to the panelbeaters .. now
there's a combo! light industry, busy chokepoint ... railway line
building impatience!) it's a very good idea to have a good look behind
to see if anyone's roaring up the road and act accordingly if they are
(ie: get out of their way!). Once you're in the narrow bit, it's not
too bad except when some tool overtakes between the "calming" devices
and suddenly finds they have to cut back quickly or go down the wrong
side of the road, into the path of a truck. Not a road for the faint
of heart or poor of hearing.

I'd love plod to put some fixed speed cameras on that road too ... I'm
a big fan of voluntary tax paying and that'd pay off a lot of state
debt 🙂

Bleve said:

And the difference between that and a roundabout is? I'm sorry, I have
never found these chicanes to be a major problem - but I don't see
having to occasionally yield to a car in a tight spot as being a huge
drama. *shrug* I guess I'm just bothering to look ahead and not
expecting everyone else to do the Right Thing. 🙂

Where I live there's dozens of these things. There's fights worth
having, and then there's whinging about something that's just not a big
deal. Thse fit neatly into the "no big deal" basket, IMO.

No, I'm talking aobut bing IN the chicane and oncoming cars stil lthinking they can bully you out of it. There is nowhere to go in this scenario, other than under the car... 🙁

Bleve said:

CF the tramstops on Whitehorse Rd near Box Hill. Now *they* are something to
get upset about. The exit lane from the back path through the first
one (eastbound) drops a rider off at a blinded left hand corner with
the implication that the lane is safe to ride. *very* dangerous. BV I
think (before your time there Dutchy) did get some changes made - the
back lane at least now exists, but these are still a dangerous
chokepoint with a misleadingly dangerous path behind them (and metal
grates .. try them on a wet night :-/ )

Dont worry. by all current accounts they are all (109 route) going to get replaced by central platforms and lots of ped crossings, with narrower lanes etc. Those Box Hill scenarios are idiotic. BV did nag vicroads/tramways about that and got minor concessions.
Dutch ones are far more commonsense/practical

Bleve said:

Slighly OT, is BV (Dutchy 🙂 ) at all interested in a safe/defensive
riding guide or video? Has it been done already? I've a few ideas for
one if it hasn't.

i think you meant 'totally' OT 😄
not sure.
They do a promo/safety/instructional DVD for all GVBR riders.
are looking into streaming components of this online so could end up being what you talk of.
Write em (specify the Board, not me) and suggest such an initiative.
Maybe even post it on their forum as they monitir that for feedback...

flyingdutch said:

Quoted message said:

Where I live there's dozens of these things. There's fights worth
having, and then there's whinging about something that's just not a
big
deal. Thse fit neatly into the "no big deal" basket, IMO.

No, I'm talking aobut bing IN the chicane and oncoming cars stil
lthinking they can bully you out of it. There is nowhere to go in this
scenario, other than under the car... 🙁

That's true, but isn't really the fault of the road design, save that
having roads means you have cars .. and cars means ...

Quoted message said:

Bleve said:

CF the tramstops on Whitehorse Rd near Box Hill. Now *they* are
something to
get upset about. The exit lane from the back path through the first
one (eastbound) drops a rider off at a blinded left hand corner with
the implication that the lane is safe to ride. *very* dangerous. BV
I
think (before your time there Dutchy) did get some changes made - the
back lane at least now exists, but these are still a dangerous
chokepoint with a misleadingly dangerous path behind them (and metal
grates .. try them on a wet night :-/ )

Dont worry. by all current accounts they are all (109 route) going to
get replaced by central platforms and lots of ped crossings, with
narrower lanes etc. Those Box Hill scenarios are idiotic. BV did nag
vicroads/tramways about that and got minor concessions.
Dutch ones are far more commonsense/practical

I hope so, they're bloody awful at the moment.

Quoted message said:

Bleve said:

Slighly OT, is BV (Dutchy 🙂 ) at all interested in a safe/defensive
riding guide or video? Has it been done already? I've a few ideas
for
one if it hasn't.

i think you meant 'totally' OT 😄

🙂

Quoted message said:

not sure.
They do a promo/safety/instructional DVD for all GVBR riders.
are looking into streaming components of this online so could end up
being what you talk of.
Write em (specify the Board, not me) and suggest such an initiative.
Maybe even post it on their forum as they monitir that for feedback...

Maybe I just make one .. one of my riders is a film maker ... I'm sure
we can do something and then donate it to BV etc. A bit of free time
in a studio to do the editing, and a couple of borrowed cameras ..
can't be that hard to do 🙂

Stuart Lamble said:

Bleve said:

flyingdutch said:

Drivers invariably do the ol 'idiot-math (ie me-car + them-bike =
me_must_go_faster!) and try and beat you into the dang chicane, even if
you are IN the damn thing!!!!

You can see them coming though. It's not like you're being sideswiped
or u-turned or lane-pressed. Try Rooks Rd (Mitcham) for that game 🙂

*shudder* I'd rather not. I've driven up it a few times -- not often,
considering how close it is to my home, but enough to know that I'm
*never* taking my bike through there.

Fortunately, it's not really on any direct route that I'm likely to need
to take on the bike.

Agreed.

Crossed it many times, but have always avoided riding along it.

Ted.
==============================================================
| Ted Linnell <[email hidden]> |
| |
| Nunawading, Victoria , Australia |
==============================================================