New Pro Teams, etc

Glad somebody noticed that. I was feeling like a teacher with nobody paying attention in class.

Greg

"ronde champ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I liked how Greg Avon posted his message and then said he would answer non-anonymous
posters...then like 10 anonymous posters started posting

[censored].

Quoted message said:

(I think Waddell was the only 'real' person to post anything.).

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not surprised there has been some criticism surrounding the

formation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of new DIII Pro teams this season. Actually, I expected many more

negative

Quoted message said:

comments (maybe you guys are riding your bikes instead of sitting in

front

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the computer all day?).

Yes, we are adding a DIII team to be announced in a few days and hope to grow our program in the
coming years. I hope most of you are smart

enough

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to realize we are just trying to do something good for the sport and

create

Quoted message said:

an opportuntiy for a few more riders to develop.

I would be happy to address any question or criticism as long as you do

not

Quoted message said:

hide behind an anonymous post.

Flame away,

Greg

www.KissenaSports.com

"Jason Waddell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: New Pro Teams, etc

. <snip> .

Quoted message said:

I responded to this in the thread titled: Rank these US teams....with my ranking projections.
These new pro teams are just glorified sub-Elite Am teams. No more, n less. Why not spend that
$10,500 on travel to about 5

NRC

Quoted message said:

races or a couple of trips overseas??? $10,500 is alot of money for

people to

Quoted message said:

able to say that they are "pro".

The fee is $5,500. The other $5k is a bank guarantee that you have to lay out. In the past I have
shared your opinion and spent that money on sending the team to as many NRC races as we could.
Spending the $5,500 has been a gamble that has already paid off, returning more than that in
addiitonal sponsorship. A warning: other amateur teams should not be lured into going D3 unless you
are prepared to do an incredible amount of work in order to do it right.

Quoted message said:

I can't wait for the first race when these D3 [censored] realize that it

takes

Quoted message said:

talent to win races, not a "pro" license.

We have been around a long time and realize talent and hard work win races.

Quoted message said:

All that these teams are doing is diluting the "pro" product by sending a

bunch

Quoted message said:

of sub-standard Category 1/2 riders out into big races. They would be better off staying in the
amateur ranks and getting some good experience and

doing

Quoted message said:

some extended travel schedules.

We have resisted turning pro for this reason. Give us the benefit of the doubt for a year or two and
then make your judgement as to whether we merit being in the domestic pro peleton.

Quoted message said:

Philly,SF,NYC,USPRO crit are the only races that Amateurs are not allowed

to

Quoted message said:

do. There is still alot of NRC racing to be had without "going pro"...

my 2 cents, jason

Thanks for your 2 cents.

Greg

This comment is equivalent to saying you want central planning, like a communist system to
run a sport.

What do you expect? People pitch the ideas (new teams), they happen in parallel. Acknowledge the
peaks and troughs of any sport, or you will always be worried about growing fast enough, too much,
etc. I hear this at some level in every sport. Sport is very democratic, and that is the only way
that it should be viewed like entertainment. If you get the funding, you hit the road. It is just
that simple. Nothing ever wrong with that. I hate the American style "franchises" and all of the
behind the scenes manipulation and corruption.

"Canuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am not surprised there has been some criticism surrounding the

formation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of new DIII Pro teams this season. Actually, I expected many more

negative

Quoted message said:

comments (maybe you guys are riding your bikes instead of sitting in

front

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the computer all day?).

Yes, we are adding a DIII team to be announced in a few days and hope to grow our program in the
coming years. I hope most of you are smart

enough

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to realize we are just trying to do something good for the sport and

create

Quoted message said:

an opportuntiy for a few more riders to develop.

I would be happy to address any question or criticism as long as you do

not

Quoted message said:

hide behind an anonymous post.

Flame away,

Greg

www.KissenaSports.com

IMO, the formation of so many new teams is out of whack with the number of reasonable riders that
are available.

There are only 40 or 50 riders who are capable of influencing the outcome

of

Quoted message said:

an NRC race.

Having more teams doesn't change that, especially since the riders on

those

Quoted message said:

new teams don't get paid, therefore those riders cannot train any more

than

Quoted message said:

previous seasons.

Thus, the new teams are nothing more than regional Cat 1 teams with a new "Pro" wrapper.

"The Pomeranian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is the funniest post of the week.

He must have kill-filed me.

Thanks, Ronde Champ

Say what? Can you tell me what you're talking about? Sea Otter outside of Laguna Seca? Better yet,
can you start a whole new thread on it? Even better, go local so that we don't have it screwed up
with Runt Chump and Sharing Peters.

"Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sharon Peters said:

Dude- Somerville hasn't been a big race in five years. It's a living example

of the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

death of American bicycle racing. -Dude

Somerville's a boring crit. Crit's getting replaced in the cycling

hierarchy isn't

Quoted message said:

a sign of death, it's a sign of improvement.

Stage 1 Sea Otter Classic Stage Race is going to be an epic circuit

through the

Quoted message said:

hills around Redwood City, CA, starting and finishing downtown. I was at

the

Quoted message said:

City Council meeting where it received 7-0 support. This is racing. Not a crit.

Dan

But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has more spectators than all other
NorCal road races combined, including Sea Otter. This one race alone can justify a sponsor's
investment.

Sea Otter is growing, however. This year's stage 1 will be a fantastic, brutal circuit through the
hills in and near Redwood City, with separate start/finish downtown. This sort of race is exactly
what's needed to increase cycling's exposure.

Dan

Wade Summers said:

Jason Waddell wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Philly,SF,NYC,USPRO crit are the only races that Amateurs are not allowed

Quoted message said:

And to add to your point Jason, if I may. Both the NYC event and USPRO crit weekend have races for
just the elite riders or P1/2 events, most notably the Elite (Cat 1) Criterium Championships. So
even those events offer a forum for elite amateurs to show their stuff. This rash of Div3 teams is
a bunch of guys wanting to say they are pro.

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Peters" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: New Pro Teams, etc From: "Greg Avon"

Quoted message said:

I hope most of you are smart enough to realize we are just trying to do something good for the
sport and

create

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an opportuntiy for a few more riders to develop.

Making more "pro" riders isn't good for the sport.

That alone is not good for the sport. I should have been more specific

and

Quoted message said:

said that taking another step toward our eventual goal of providing a

clear

Quoted message said:

development structure for young riders from Junior to Elite Amateur to Pro is good for the sport.

Quoted message said:

How much does it cost your
team to register as a DIII?

$5,500 is the fee (plus you are required to post a bank guarantee of at least $5,000)

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't that money be better spent on your riders? Either in wages or using that money to go
races in Europe or

Canada or

Quoted message said:

Central America?

$5500 is not enough money for a supported team trip to Europe, we already

go

Quoted message said:

to Canada when appropriate and we're not interested in sending the team to Central America.

Quoted message said:

And don't tell me it makes it easier to get sponsorship dollars, cause that's total [censored].

It definitely has made it easier to find sponsorship, although it still requires an incredible
amount of work.

Quoted message said:

It might be worth it if there were pro only races that were worth doing

for a

Quoted message said:

DIII team. But honestly, what is getting last at Beauce going to do for

your

Quoted message said:

riders development?

Our amateur team competed at Beauce a number of times finishing higher

than

Quoted message said:

some of the pro teams. Doing tougher races (like Beauce) is an important part of
developing riders.

Greg,

I thought you said you weren't going to respond to anonymous posters?

Thanks, Ronde Champ

"Wade Summers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jason Waddell wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

All that these teams are doing is diluting the "pro" product by sending a

bunch

Quoted message said:

of sub-standard Category 1/2 riders out into big races. They would be

better

Quoted message said:

off staying in the amateur ranks and getting some good experience and

doing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some extended travel schedules. Philly,SF,NYC,USPRO crit are the only races that Amateurs are not
allowed

to

Quoted message said:

do. There is still alot of NRC racing to be had without "going pro"...

my 2 cents, jason

And to add to your point Jason, if I may. Both the NYC event and USPRO

crit

Quoted message said:

weekend have races for just the elite riders or P1/2 events, most notably the Elite (Cat 1)
Criterium Championships. So even those events offer a forum for elite amateurs to show their
stuff. This rash of Div3 teams is

a

Quoted message said:

bunch of guys wanting to say they are pro.

Wade

Wade:

If you knew me, you would know that "guys wanting to say they are pro" was not a factor in our
decision We look at this as one step toward something bigger and we are working hard to take the
program to the next level. Thanks.

Greg

Dan, do you think this is a perception unique to the East Coast ("the death of Somerville..."😉? It
does seem like the West Coast (along with other diverse regions) is doing better than the East. For
me this makes sense, but this is a big country. Is the criticism in part because of the shifts in
where the racing is growing versus declining?

"Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sharon Peters said:

Dude- Somerville hasn't been a big race in five years. It's a living example

of the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

death of American bicycle racing. -Dude

Somerville's a boring crit. Crit's getting replaced in the cycling

hierarchy isn't

Quoted message said:

a sign of death, it's a sign of improvement.

Stage 1 Sea Otter Classic Stage Race is going to be an epic circuit

through the

Quoted message said:

hills around Redwood City, CA, starting and finishing downtown. I was at

the

Quoted message said:

City Council meeting where it received 7-0 support. This is racing. Not a crit.

Dan

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This comment is equivalent to saying you want central planning, like a communist system to run
a sport.

What do you expect? People pitch the ideas (new teams), they happen in parallel. Acknowledge the
peaks and troughs of any sport, or you will

always

Quoted message said:

be worried about growing fast enough, too much, etc. I hear this at some level in every sport.
Sport is very democratic, and that is the only way that it should be viewed like entertainment. If
you get the funding, you

hit

Quoted message said:

the road. It is just that simple. Nothing ever wrong with that. I hate the American style
"franchises" and all of the behind the scenes manipulation and corruption.

What?

I'm saying that if the D3 teams don't pay the riders a living wage, allowing them to train full
time, then there is no difference between a D3 team and a Cat 1 team, except the D3 team gets to pay
a big UCI fee and the former Cat 1s get to brag about the pro license.

The newer D3 teams aren't paying. Get it?

Having a pro license doesn't take a rider "to the next level" (gag). Being able to train full
time might.

Daniel Connelly wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has more spectators than all other
NorCal road races combined, including Sea Otter. This one race alone can justify a sponsor's
investment.

Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor? I'm not so sure. A lot of people on the
streets, but how much media coverage? Are the riders on the new D3 teams gonna get their jerseys on
the TV or in the paper? Chances are no. Especially with the way that cycling is covered in the US.
Dionne won but the story in the main stream media was still about USPS and Lance.

Wade

I guess I'll have to make a conscious exception to respond to you.

While I assumed "Sharon" was a guy who is afraid to open himself up to criticism (either that or a
woman with serious anger management issues), I do not follow RBR closely enough to keep track of all
the pseudonyms. Maybe there is a list in the FAQ?

Greg

"ronde champ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Peters" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Subject: New Pro Teams, etc From: "Greg Avon"

> I hope most of you are smart enough to realize we are just trying to do something good for
> the sport and

create

Quoted message said:

>an opportuntiy for a few more riders to develop.

Making more "pro" riders isn't good for the sport.

That alone is not good for the sport. I should have been more specific

and

Quoted message said:

said that taking another step toward our eventual goal of providing a

clear

Quoted message said:

development structure for young riders from Junior to Elite Amateur to

Pro

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is good for the sport.

Quoted message said:

How much does it cost your
team to register as a DIII?

$5,500 is the fee (plus you are required to post a bank guarantee of at least $5,000)

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't that money be better spent on your riders? Either in wages or using that money to go
races in Europe or

Canada or

Quoted message said:

Central America?

$5500 is not enough money for a supported team trip to Europe, we

already

Quoted message said:

go

Quoted message said:

to Canada when appropriate and we're not interested in sending the team

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Central America.

Quoted message said:

And don't tell me it makes it easier to get sponsorship dollars, cause that's total [censored].

It definitely has made it easier to find sponsorship, although it still requires an incredible
amount of work.

Quoted message said:

It might be worth it if there were pro only races that were worth

doing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for a

Quoted message said:

DIII team. But honestly, what is getting last at Beauce going to do

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your

Quoted message said:

riders development?

Our amateur team competed at Beauce a number of times finishing higher

than

Quoted message said:

some of the pro teams. Doing tougher races (like Beauce) is an

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

part of developing riders.

Greg,

I thought you said you weren't going to respond to anonymous posters?

Thanks, Ronde Champ

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you knew me, you would know that "guys wanting to say they are pro" was not a factor in our
decision We look at this as one step toward something bigger and we are working hard to take the
program to the next level. Thanks.

If a team doesn't pay riders a living wage, they have to work to make ends meet and don't have the
time or energy to train more than they did the previous year, then how exactly is going D3 taking it
"to the next level"?

Is there something magical about having the word "pro" on a license that makes a rider better?

"Daniel Connelly" <djconnel@[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has more spectators than all
other NorCal road races combined, including Sea Otter. This one race alone can justify a sponsor's
investment.

Sea Otter is growing, however. This year's stage 1 will be a fantastic, brutal circuit through the
hills in and near Redwood City, with separate start/finish downtown. This sort of race is exactly
what's needed to

increase

Quoted message said:

cycling's exposure.

Dan -- cool. I did not know that. But... Redwood City has hills?

Quoted message said:

Wade Summers said:

Jason Waddell wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Philly,SF,NYC,USPRO crit are the only races that Amateurs are not

allowed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And to add to your point Jason, if I may. Both the NYC event and USPRO

crit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

weekend have races for just the elite riders or P1/2 events, most

notably

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Elite (Cat 1) Criterium Championships. So even those events offer a forum for elite amateurs
to show their stuff. This rash of Div3 teams

is a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bunch of guys wanting to say they are pro.

Yes, I get it. I just don't understand why you care. Maybe you need to think more about what "pro"
means to you.

"Canuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This comment is equivalent to saying you want central planning, like a communist system to run a
sport.

What do you expect? People pitch the ideas (new teams), they happen in parallel. Acknowledge the
peaks and troughs of any sport, or you will

always

Quoted message said:

be worried about growing fast enough, too much, etc. I hear this at some level in every sport.
Sport is very democratic, and that is the only way that it should be viewed like entertainment.
If you get the funding, you

hit

Quoted message said:

the road. It is just that simple. Nothing ever wrong with that. I hate

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

American style "franchises" and all of the behind the scenes

manipulation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and corruption.

What?

I'm saying that if the D3 teams don't pay the riders a living wage,

allowing

Quoted message said:

them to train full time, then there is no difference between a D3 team and

a

Quoted message said:

Cat 1 team, except the D3 team gets to pay a big UCI fee and the former

Cat

Quoted message said:

1s get to brag about the pro license.

The newer D3 teams aren't paying. Get it?

Having a pro license doesn't take a rider "to the next level" (gag). Being able to train full
time might.

I think the exposure is more than you think. Andy Ball takes clients out to the Grand Prix where he
can show them the Webcor team riding up Taylor and Filmore with the big guns. This opportunity is
available at very few races. If it generates just one contract, the entire team budget can be
justified.

Dan

Wade Summers said:

Daniel Connelly wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has more spectators than all
other NorCal road races combined, including Sea Otter. This one race alone can justify a sponsor's
investment.

Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor? I'm not so sure. A lot of people on the
streets, but how much media coverage? Are the riders on the new D3 teams gonna get their jerseys
on the TV or in the paper? Chances are no. Especially with the way that cycling is covered in the
US. Dionne won but the story in the main stream media was still about USPS and Lance.

Wade

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I guess I'll have to make a conscious exception to respond to you.

While I assumed "Sharon" was a guy who is afraid to open himself up to criticism (either that or a
woman with serious anger management issues),

Funny. A new thread?

I

Quoted message said:

do not follow RBR closely enough to keep track of all the pseudonyms.

Maybe

Quoted message said:

there is a list in the FAQ?

Greg

"ronde champ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sharon Peters" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> >Subject: New Pro Teams, etc From: "Greg Avon"
>
> > I hope most of you are smart enough to realize we are just trying to do something good for
> > the sport

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

create
> >an opportuntiy for a few more riders to develop.
>
> Making more "pro" riders isn't good for the sport.

That alone is not good for the sport. I should have been more

specific

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

said that taking another step toward our eventual goal of providing a

clear

Quoted message said:

development structure for young riders from Junior to Elite Amateur to

Pro

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is good for the sport.

> How much does it cost your
> team to register as a DIII?

$5,500 is the fee (plus you are required to post a bank guarantee of

at

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

least $5,000)

>Wouldn't that money be better spent on your riders? Either in wages or using that money to go
>races in Europe

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Canada or
> Central America?

$5500 is not enough money for a supported team trip to Europe, we

already

Quoted message said:

go

Quoted message said:

to Canada when appropriate and we're not interested in sending the

team

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Central America.

>And don't tell me it makes it easier to get sponsorship dollars, cause that's total [censored].

It definitely has made it easier to find sponsorship, although it

still

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

requires an incredible amount of work.

> It might be worth it if there were pro only races that were worth

doing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for a
> DIII team. But honestly, what is getting last at Beauce going to do

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your
> riders development?

Our amateur team competed at Beauce a number of times finishing higher

than

Quoted message said:

some of the pro teams. Doing tougher races (like Beauce) is an

important

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

part of developing riders.

Greg,

I thought you said you weren't going to respond to anonymous posters?

Thanks, Ronde Champ

Greg Avon said:

I guess I'll have to make a conscious exception to respond to you.

While I assumed "Sharon" was a guy who is afraid to open himself up to criticism

What?!? I guess when I finally meet the love of my life I'm going to have to turn gay!

Greg
--
"Destroy your safe and happy lives before it is too late, the battles we fought were long and hard,
just not to be consumed by rock n' roll..." - The Mekons

Wade Summers said:

Daniel Connelly wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has more spectators than all
other NorCal road races combined, including Sea Otter. This one race alone can justify a
sponsor's investment.

Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor?

So if the sponsor doesn't see an adequate return, they drop out. If the riders (team) don't get a
new sponsor, they are back to amatuer. That would apparently make you happy. What is the problem?

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, I get it. I just don't understand why you care. Maybe you need to

think

Quoted message said:

more about what "pro" means to you.

I enjoy pointing out poser-ism.

By the same token, why do you care about it?