New Pro Teams, etc

I'd be happy to respond to your misconceptions if you were not posting anonymously.

"Canuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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If you knew me, you would know that "guys wanting to say they are pro"

was

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not a factor in our decision We look at this as one step toward

something

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bigger and we are working hard to take the program to the next level. Thanks.

If a team doesn't pay riders a living wage, they have to work to make ends meet and don't have the
time or energy to train more than they did the previous year, then how exactly is going D3 taking
it "to the next level"?

Is there something magical about having the word "pro" on a license that makes a rider better?

Ken Papai said:

"Daniel Connelly" <djconnel@[email hidden]...

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But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has more spectators than all
other NorCal road races combined, including Sea Otter. This one race alone can justify a sponsor's
investment.

Sea Otter is growing, however. This year's stage 1 will be a fantastic, brutal circuit through the
hills in and near Redwood City, with separate start/finish downtown. This sort of race is exactly
what's needed to

increase

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cycling's exposure.

Dan -- cool. I did not know that. But... Redwood City has hills?

The Emerald Hills west of the main city include areas of unincorporated San Mateo County. Jefferson
Road is the most popularly ridden of these roads, but Farm Hill to Canada College is also accessible
(in the 15% grade range), and the maze of roads through the hills provide plenty of options,
culminating in the promonent Christian cross at the top. See :

maps.yahoo.commaps.pyOpen ↗

Exactly. It is active participation of the sponsor that affects the ROI. Sure results count. There
is just more to it. Why worry about the sponsor? It is not a hustle. These sponsors should know what
it means to them more than you do. That was always my view.

"Daniel Connelly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I think the exposure is more than you think. Andy Ball takes clients out

to

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the Grand Prix where he can show them the Webcor team riding up Taylor and Filmore with the big
guns. This opportunity is available at very few races. If it generates just one contract, the
entire team budget can be justified.

Dan

Wade Summers said:

Daniel Connelly wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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But even one race can be sufficient motivation to register. SFGP has

more

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spectators than all other NorCal road races combined, including Sea

Otter.

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This one race alone can justify a sponsor's investment.

Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor? I'm not so

sure. A

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lot of people on the streets, but how much media coverage? Are the

riders on

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the new D3 teams gonna get their jerseys on the TV or in the paper?

Chances

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are no. Especially with the way that cycling is covered in the US.

Dionne

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won but the story in the main stream media was still about USPS and

Lance.

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Wade

The Pomeranian wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor?

So if the sponsor doesn't see an adequate return, they drop out. If the riders (team) don't get a
new sponsor, they are back to amatuer. That would apparently make you happy. What is the problem?

No problem. Just a disagreement. I don't think the exposure at SFGP alone, or should I say the
possibility of exposure at SFGP is enough to bring a sponsor on board to one of these new D3 teams.

I was also agreeing with Jason Waddel and expanding a little on what he said by saying that all of
these new D3 riders/teams will get the same exposure if they stay amateur and save the team's
budget that $10,500 hit. Those riders are going to get the same results in races whether they are
1/2s, or D3 pros.

Wade

Canuck said:

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Yes, I get it. I just don't understand why you care. Maybe you need to

think

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more about what "pro" means to you.

I enjoy pointing out poser-ism.

That's like Kunich complaining that the only reason a Cat 3 racer has a 12t cog on their bike is
because "they want to believe they are Mario Cippolini."

I don't think I do care about lables, or what you are calling "poser-ism". Not much anyway. It took
some guts and insight for you to understand your own motivations.

"Canuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Yes, I get it. I just don't understand why you care. Maybe you need to

think

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more about what "pro" means to you.

I enjoy pointing out poser-ism.

By the same token, why do you care about it?

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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I'd be happy to respond to your misconceptions if you were not posting anonymously.

I have my reasons for remaining anonymous.

As for 'misconceptions' - the riders I know who are on various D3 teams agree with the fundamental
reasoning: that there are ~50 riders who are capable of making a difference in an NRC race and the
others who are not at that level of ability need the freedom to up their level of training, ie.
getting paid a living wage.

have a nice day.

Wade Summers said:

The Pomeranian wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor?

So if the sponsor doesn't see an adequate return, they drop out. If the riders (team) don't get a
new sponsor, they are back to amatuer. That would apparently make you happy. What is the problem?

No problem. Just a disagreement. I don't think the exposure at SFGP alone, or should I say
the possibility of exposure at SFGP is enough to bring a sponsor on board to one of these new
D3 teams.

I thought you were worried about the sponsor leaving, not coming on board. Which is it and why does
it really matter?

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I was also agreeing with Jason Waddel and expanding a little on what he said by saying that all of
these new D3 riders/teams will get the same exposure if they stay amateur and save the team's
budget that $10,500 hit. Those riders are going to get the same results in races whether they are
1/2s, or D3 pros.

Let's take that $10k and spread it across 10 riders and across a season. That looks like chicken
change to me. Some folks even believe the sponsor isn't the one paying the $10k:

"How many first time sponsors will get burned by a bunch of [censored] who paid thier own dIII
registration fee? -- Sharon Peters

So if it was the rider's own money, why complain?

"The Pomeranian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Canuck said:

"Chris M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Yes, I get it. I just don't understand why you care. Maybe you need to

think

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more about what "pro" means to you.

I enjoy pointing out poser-ism.

That's like Kunich complaining that the only reason a Cat 3 racer has a 12t cog on their bike is
because "they want to believe they are Mario Cippolini."

What?

I just think that if a team wants to consider itself 'professional', it ought to be paying its
riders. The team manager that started this thread wrote of "taking it to the next level". How does
paying $10k to the UCI "take it to the next level"? The riders still have to work other jobs to
support themselves.

IMO, it's those teams that are posing. They can present itself as "professional" to sponsors, yet if
they don't pay the riders. They're no different than any other regional Cat 1 team.

If a racer is to compete reasonably with professional riders who train full-time, said racer needs
to be able to train full-time also.

Doesn't that make sense?

"The Pomeranian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Wade Summers said:

The Pomeranian wrote in message

<[email hidden]>...

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>
> Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor?

So if the sponsor doesn't see an adequate return, they drop out. If

the

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riders (team) don't get a new sponsor, they are back to amatuer. That would apparently make you
happy. What is the problem?

No problem. Just a disagreement. I don't think the exposure at SFGP

alone,

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or should I say the possibility of exposure at SFGP is enough to bring a sponsor on board to one
of these new D3 teams.

I thought you were worried about the sponsor leaving, not coming on board. Which is it and why
does it really matter?

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I was also agreeing with Jason Waddel and expanding a little on what he

said

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by saying that all of these new D3 riders/teams will get the same

exposure

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if they stay amateur and save the team's budget that $10,500 hit. Those riders are going to get
the same results in races whether they are 1/2s,

or

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D3 pros.

Let's take that $10k and spread it across 10 riders and across a season. That looks like chicken
change to me. Some folks even believe the sponsor isn't the one paying the $10k:

"How many first time sponsors will get burned by a bunch of [censored] who paid thier own dIII
registration fee? -- Sharon Peters

I haven't heard of that.

If that's the case, even more reason to make fun of it.

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So if it was the rider's own money, why complain?

Because people are free to express their opinion? Why not make fun?

The Pomeranian wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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Wade Summers said:

The Pomeranian wrote in message

<[email hidden]>...

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>
> Perhaps in the eyes of the rider or team, but a sponsor?

So if the sponsor doesn't see an adequate return, they drop out. If the riders (team) don't get
a new sponsor, they are back to amatuer. That would apparently make you happy. What is the
problem?

No problem. Just a disagreement. I don't think the exposure at SFGP

alone,

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or should I say the possibility of exposure at SFGP is enough to bring a sponsor on board to one
of these new D3 teams.

I thought you were worried about the sponsor leaving, not coming on board. Which is it and why does
it really matter?

Actually I didn't say anything about sponsors leaving. Maybe you have my post confused with another.
I'm not worried about anything. I said that I didn't think a sponsor would be swayed by one race -
even if it is the SFGP. Meaning that one of the only races a D3 team can do as opposed to an amateur
team would be the SFGP. Daniel Connelly suggested that the SFGP might be enough for a sponsor to
come on aboard to take an amateur team to D3.

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I was also agreeing with Jason Waddel and expanding a little on what he

said

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by saying that all of these new D3 riders/teams will get the same

exposure

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if they stay amateur and save the team's budget that $10,500 hit. Those riders are going to get
the same results in races whether they are 1/2s,

or

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D3 pros.

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Let's take that $10k and spread it across 10 riders and across a season. That looks like chicken
change to me. Some folks even believe the sponsor isn't the one paying the $10k:

It is $10,500. Well if it is chicken change - it is chicken change either way - D3 pro or elite
amateur. I would think the riders might want that chicken change rather than giving it to the UCI
given that their race schedule will be the same, sans the SFGP.

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"How many first time sponsors will get burned by a bunch of [censored] who paid thier own dIII
registration fee? -- Sharon Peters

So if it was the rider's own money, why complain?

Sounds like you are suggesting that the riders are paying their own way to be D3. That supports one
of my other statements. Some of these D3s are doing it just to say they are pro.

I don't think I'm complaining.

Wade

Wade Summers said:

The Pomeranian wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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I thought you were worried about the sponsor leaving, not coming on board. Which is it and why
does it really matter?

Actually I didn't say anything about sponsors leaving. Maybe you have my post confused with
another.

If the "pro" team doesn't get a sponsor in the first place, what does it matter? The $10k didn't
come out the pocket of anyone who didn't decide to pay it.

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I'm not worried about anything. I said that I didn't think a sponsor would be swayed by one race -
even if it is the SFGP. Meaning that one of the only races a D3 team can do as opposed to an
amateur team would be the SFGP. Daniel Connelly suggested that the SFGP might be enough for a
sponsor to come on aboard to take an amateur team to D3.

But again, what does it matter if the sponsor doesn't show up in the first place.

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Let's take that $10k and spread it across 10 riders and across a season. That looks like chicken
change to me. Some folks even believe the sponsor isn't the one paying the $10k:

It is $10,500. Well if it is chicken change - it is chicken change either way - D3 pro or elite
amateur.

True enough, so don't worry about it. Let the team worry about. They are the ones that care more
than anyone about how the few bucks they have are spent. They might be making a mistake, but as
investments go, a single $10k choice across 10 riders is pretty small. And it might, just might,
payoff. Investments are about taking some measure of chance for the _possibility_ of a nice payoff.

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I would think the riders might want that chicken change rather than giving it to the UCI given
that their race schedule will be the same, sans the SFGP.

No. You wrote "This rash of Div3 teams is a bunch of guys wanting to say they are pro." According to
you they want the pro status more than they want the money (those 10 team riders could stay amateurs
and pick that $1k/yr up off the table). You can't have it both ways. Which is it?

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"How many first time sponsors will get burned by a bunch of [censored] who paid thier own dIII
registration fee? -- Sharon Peters

So if it was the rider's own money, why complain?

Sounds like you are suggesting that the riders are paying their own way to be D3. That supports
one of my other statements. Some of these D3s are doing it just to say they are pro.

I don't think I'm complaining.

It appears to bother you, but why if the folks paying the bill decided of their own
volition to do so?

The Pomeranian wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

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If the "pro" team doesn't get a sponsor in the first place, what does it matter? The $10k didn't
come out the pocket of anyone who didn't decide to pay it.

I'll make the assumption that these new D3 pro teams have sponsors. They have a team name right?
Product names on their jerseys? Did they get all this stuff for free? Are they getting paid? Do they
get travel stipends? Maybe. Maybe not. But I bet when they have their team announces on cyclingnews,
they'll have a list of sponsors. How much money, product, or services they are getting - I don't
know. They are getting something. Perahps the riders have chipped into the budget themselves. Fine.
But in my opinion, their budget would be better spent as an amateur team.

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But again, what does it matter if the sponsor doesn't show up in the first place.

I guess it doesn't, but these teams have sponsors. They have told us as much.

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True enough, so don't worry about it. Let the team worry about. They are the ones that care more
than anyone about how the few bucks they have are spent. They might be making a mistake, but as
investments go, a single $10k choice across 10 riders is pretty small. And it might, just might,
payoff. Investments are about taking some measure of chance for the _possibility_ of a nice payoff.

Fair enough. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained. Again I'm not worried about
it. Have a blast. I just think they could have a blast as amateur squads, use the money differently
and still garnish the same exposure and experience.

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I would think the riders might want that chicken change rather than

giving

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it to the UCI given that their race schedule will be the same, sans the SFGP.

No. You wrote "This rash of Div3 teams is a bunch of guys wanting to say they are pro." According
to you they want the pro status more than they want the money (those 10 team riders could stay
amateurs and pick that $1k/yr up off the table). You can't have it both ways. Which is it?

I don't understand the having it both ways comment. I think I said that elite teams in the US can do
essentially the same race schedule as a D3 team and not give $ 10,500 to the UCI. I think that money
could be used differently for the betterment of that team, given that the race schedule and exposure
will be nearly the same.I feel this status change to D3 pro could just be an ego maneuver. I don't
think it is "taking it to the next level."

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It appears to bother you, but why if the folks paying the bill decided of their own volition
to do so?

I supposed in a way it does bother me a little. As someone who would like to see cycling grow in
the US, I just think there would be a better use of a sizeable chance of money. I don't feel
that kind of money is chicken change when it comes to US domestic racing. So we'll evaluate this
come September and we'll see what that D3 status did for these teams and riders. The best of
luck to them.

Wade

Waddell said:

Philly,SF,NYC,USPRO crit are the only races that Amateurs are not allowed to
do.

The Tour de Georgia will only allow pros.

Greg Miller

Waddell said:

They would be better off staying in the amateur ranks and getting some good experience and doing
some extended travel schedules.

So, what is your reaction to GoMart's Diii transition? They have won everything an amateur team can
win, and beaten many pro teams in the process. Do they "deserve" to make the switch? Greg

"Jason Waddell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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If you are not able to pay your riders and they still have to wrench at a

bike

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shop or sling coffee at Starsluts then how are they expected to do any

more

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than the past.

That is the question which none of the new non-salary paying D3 teams have an answer for.

thank you Mr. Waddell.

"Jason Waddell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Subject: Re: New Pro Teams, etc From: "Greg Avon" [email hidden] Date: 1/15/03
8:59 AM Central Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"Jason Waddell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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>Subject: Re: New Pro Teams, etc

. <snip> .

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I responded to this in the thread titled: Rank these US teams....with

my

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ranking projections. These new pro teams are just glorified sub-Elite

Am

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teams. No more, n less. Why not spend that $10,500 on travel to about

5

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NRC

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races or a couple of trips overseas??? $10,500 is alot of money for

people to

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able to say that they are "pro".

The fee is $5,500. The other $5k is a bank guarantee that you have to

lay

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out. In the past I have shared your opinion and spent that money on

sending

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the team to as many NRC races as we could. Spending the $5,500 has been

a

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gamble that has already paid off, returning more than that in additional sponsorship. A warning:
other amateur teams should not be lured into

going

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D3 unless you are prepared to do an incredible amount of work in order to

do

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it right.

Maybe I can just talk like a car salesman or results speak for themselves,

but

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I have NO PROBLEM getting sponsors for our Am team. We probably get more

free

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stuff than half of the D3 teams.

I was talking about financial sponsors. I should also clarify that the "incredible amount of work"
refers to putting together an organization and running the team, not just getting sponsorship

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If you are talking money terms, get all your sponsors and then subtract $10,500+ salary if any to
the riders.

Not sure exactly what you are trying to say here.

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I can't wait for the first race when these D3 [censored] realize that it

takes

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talent to win races, not a "pro" license.

We have been around a long time and realize talent and hard work win

races.

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Not to belittle your program, but other than NE races what have your guys

done?

I'm not going to give a team resume, but we have done very well, for an amateur team, outside of
the NE over the years (some years better than others). We do focus on the NE events, since most of
the quality races after May 1 are in the NE and they are more important to our sponsors. I should
also mention that Kissena's Peter Mazur did win the Junior World TT and the overall Junior World
Cup in 2000.

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If you are not able to pay your riders and they still have to wrench at a

bike

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shop or sling coffee at Starsluts then how are they expected to do any

more

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than the past.

You should not assume we will not be paying any of our riders. The team is almost entirely composed
of full time riders, so they won't be wearing paper hats when not on the bike. Adding a pro team
generates interest and should make it easier to recruit riders and we have a bigger budget as a
result of adding a pro team, both of which should help us "do more" in the long run.

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Question for you Greg: My point is that you can get first rate support

from an

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Elite Am team that is run right and develop riders, but you say that by spending the $10,500 to
turn pro and do 5 more races a year that you are

taking

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a step forward?

Also,our goal is to do an elite amateur team in addition to a pro team and move guys from the
amateur to the pro team when they are ready.

Unless you secure a few really good riders your current guys

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will continue to place the same and get dropped at the same times at the

races.

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All that these teams are doing is diluting the "pro" product by sending

a

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bunch

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of sub-standard Category 1/2 riders out into big races. They would be better off staying in the
amateur ranks and getting some good experience and

doing

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some extended travel schedules.

We have resisted turning pro for this reason. Give us the benefit of the doubt for a year or two
and then make your judgment as to whether we

merit

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being in the domestic pro peleton.

I give anyone the benfit of the doubt, but I will still question the

reasons

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behind the motive. I don't post anonymously so I stand behind my words.

I

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hope your team is successful, I really do, but I question your motives and methods that is all.

I have questioned the 'method' myself. I felt the same way you do in many respects. Spending the
extra $5,500 to race 5 more races did not make sense. However, that is an over-simplification.
Adding a pro team has generated much more than $5,500 from sponsors who were not interested in
supporting an amateur team. Equally as important, the pro thing has generated a lot of interest with
people surrounding the team, who now want to get involved and help out.

While I respect the fact that you are one of the only people using their name to post, "questioning
my motives" when you know nothing about me or our motives might prompt some people to question your
intelligence. My 'motive' has always been to give something back to the sport and in some small way
to continue the work of my mentor in cycling, the late Al Toefield. I owe an incredible debt to Al
and would not have been able to get into bike racing without his help. I am not sure what kind of
motives you might think I have, but I am definitely not looking for personal glorification (since I
would be happier if nobody knew who I am) or financial gain (I have always been the biggest sponsor
of the team).

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Philly,SF,NYC,USPRO crit are the only races that Amateurs are not

allowed

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to

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do. There is still alot of NRC racing to be had without "going pro"...

my 2 cents, jason

Thanks for your 2 cents.

Greg

your welcome, thanks for the response, jason

Some people act like we are trash talking and saying "we are pro and you are not" or something
similar (this is not directed toward you, Jason). Having a pro license alone means nothing.

Most people are taking this way too seriously. We're only talking about domestic pro racing here. As
my friend Alex Lavallee would say in a French Canadian accent "the real pros, they are in Europe".

Greg

"Greg Avon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Jason Waddell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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Not to belittle your program, but other than NE races what have your

guys

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done?

I'm not going to give a team resume, but we have done very well, for an amateur team, outside of
the NE over the years (some years better than others). We do focus on the NE events, since most of
the quality races after May 1 are in the NE and they are more important to our sponsors. I should
also mention that Kissena's Peter Mazur did win the Junior World TT and the overall Junior World
Cup in 2000.

Dude, you're getting way ahead of yourself. Getting results at 'quality races in the NE' doesn't
mean squat - brag about your team at the end of the coming season with regards to the NRC point
standings if they do in fact perform.

OTOH, it's kind of fun when a manager comes out and puts his team behind the 8-ball before the
season starts by talking too much smack. It's happened before and it really is good entertainment,
watching a team get stuffed all year long because of their manager.

"Canuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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OTOH, it's kind of fun when a manager comes out and puts his team behind the 8-ball before the
season starts by talking too much smack.

What smack has Avon been talking? Is the act of forming a pro team "talking smack"?

The Kissena elite amateur program has been good for years and taking a step up is admirable.

JT

--
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Visit jt10000.comjt10000.comOpen ↗
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"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Canuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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OTOH, it's kind of fun when a manager comes out and puts his team behind the 8-ball before the
season starts by talking too much smack.

What smack has Avon been talking? Is the act of forming a pro team "talking smack"?

He didn't yet, but I sensed it could happen.

"quality races in the NE"?

Hence, the cautionary anecdote.