New touring wheels.

"The Pomeranian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Wayne T said:

"David Ornee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Dura-Ace is lighter, but will it be better for your application? What is the rear drop out
spacing?

Having it spread out from 125 to 135.

If you are going to 135 mm just forget the road hubs and buy MTB hubs since they are "ready" for
135 mm right off the shelf and have little rubber booties built in. XTR is great quality and XT or
LX are nice enough and will probably pass just fine for touring duty too.

Since this is currently my only bike, would the MTB hubs be suited for fast club rides. Are would
the DA's be better all round for both fast rides and touring?

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Will you really be "loaded touring" with these wheels? (Mavic Open Pro may be too light)

Yes, will be doing some loaded touring. My wife only weights 107. Her Mavic's will be 36 hole
with X-tra lite double butted stainless spokes.

I

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weigh 177 but I just checked and I am getting a Mavic 520 touring rim 36 hole and regular double
butted spokes.

520's should be fine. Don't worry about weight for a touring bike. Get something you think will be
reliable. You don't want to mess with the bike when you are trying to breathe the air and see the
sites. Personally, I wouldn't feel bad or worry about LX quality when it comes to reliability. But
if you have the cash, there's not much reason to hold back from buying top-of-the-line.

Bontrager Fairlanes are available @ 36h/700c (from Rivendell),

Are these faster lighter wheels? I take it since they are 36h, that they are appropriate for
heavy touring.

but have

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only single eyelets, IIRC. The rear Fairlane is OCR, which I think is an idea that makes sense if
it can be well implemented. The Fairlane's single eyelets probably isn't a huge deal in practice
because they have a lot of aluminum. The 520 rear is not OCR and I think it is anodized; anodizing
is a dubious concept -- Mavic claims it prevents corrosion, but I think it probably causes at
least as many problems as it allegedly solves (Al forms a thin protective oxide layer all by
itself anyway). I do believe the 520 has double eyelets, which is good. Maybe you can find the 519
rim (for some reason I feel like I remember that the 519 was not anodized).

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Please describe more of your intended use. What is your shifting requirements? (number of
speeds, shifters, deraileurs)

Triple crank, perhaps a 44-32-22. 9 speed rear 12-34.

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What width tires will you be using?

700X32c

Sounds fine. The Pasela is available in 35c too, I think.

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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> "Wayne T" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> > As I mentioned earlier, I am having my wife's and my bike

converted

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from
> > freewheel to cassette. Also, I am converting my wife's 27"

wheels

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to 700c.
> > On the back, I can't use her current Phil Wood hub because it

wont

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work with
> > a cassette, so I am buying a Dura Ace.
>
> Going from a Phil hub to a Dura Ace cassette is a _big_ step down

in

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> quality and longevity. It also imposes bearing adjustments that

need

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> not be performed on the Phil hub. Bad idea.
>
> It's like getting rid of your wife's Bentley in favor of an Acura because you like the idea
> of front wheel drive.

Have you had bad experience with DA? Longevity is such a hard thing

to

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judge with changing axle widths and the forced retirement of

equipment,

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but I have gotten good service out of DA/Ultegra hubs and Phil hubs. With the introduction of
field serviceable bearings, some of the

burdens

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of owning Phil hubs are now gone. Back in the day, I found that the labyrinth seal on Shimano
hubs sealed much better than the rubber

wiper

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on the old Phil hubs -- so the Phils stopped being my first choice

for

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riding in the rain.

Then you are saying that you prefer Dura Ace hubs for riding in the

rain

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over the Phil hubs? Sounds like you don't buy the statement that

trading in

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a phil hubed wheel for a Dura Ace is a big mistake. Anyone else have

any

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feelings on this?

I think Phil still uses the same cartridge bearings with the same wiper seals. 30 years ago, these
were way better than Campy NR, which had dust caps that were useless against water. The Phil hubs
also had stronger axles and more configurations (flange heighth, hole count, etc.) than Campy --
and they were cheaper than Campy. With the advent of the cassette hub, however, bent axles became
less of a problem, and the seals on the Shimano hubs solved a lot of he water intrusion problems,
and Shimano hubs were inexpensive. Phil hubs are still great hubs: you do not have to adjust them;
they are beautiful and you never have to worry about destroying a bearing race or cone because you
can just pop in a new cartridge bearing. If you are a person who destroys bearing races and needs
a really strong axle, you should consider the Phil. This may explain why Bluto likes them so much
(he is a big rider). Most people, however, would be fine with Ultegra or Dura Ace hubs. As far as
trading in, I would not buy the Phil cassette hub unless I was feeling particularly rich.

What about the front wheel that I want converted from 27" to 700c? It has a 25 year old Phil Wood
hub. Would you rebuild it or trade it in for a new wheel with a DA hub. The cost is the same. My
builder's reasoning is that the DA is lighter.

I would not scew around with freewheels. I am

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through with freewheels. -- Jay Beattie.

Wayne T said:

Since this is currently my only bike, would the MTB hubs be suited for fast club rides.

Yes, they would, although some cyclists may look down their noses at you. Ignore them.

The weight difference and rolling resistance, if any, are so small that they are lost in the noise
of air resistance. Lighter is better, all other considerations being equal, but they rarely are. MTB
hubs are generally tougher and are better sealed.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

But, the 700x35 measures 700x31 and the 700x32 is 700x28.

The Pomeranian said:

Sounds fine. The Pasela is available in 35c too, I think.

Wayne T said:

Since this is currently my only bike, would the MTB hubs be suited for fast club rides. Are would
the DA's be better all round for both fast rides and touring?

The MTB hubs are fine for any style of riding -- the important difference is simply the over-locknut
dimension and maybe the booties. XTR is the DuraAce equivalent in MTB hubs; they are very nice.

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Bontrager Fairlanes are available @ 36h/700c (from Rivendell),

Are these faster lighter wheels? I take it since they are 36h, that they are appropriate for heavy
touring.

These are touring rims -- over 500g if I remember correctly. Because you are going with 135 mm hubs,
the OCR feature is less important.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Wayne T said:

Since this is currently my only bike, would the MTB hubs be suited for

fast

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club rides.

Yes, they would, although some cyclists may look down their noses at you. Ignore them.

The weight difference and rolling resistance, if any, are so small that they are lost in the noise
of air resistance. Lighter is better, all other considerations being equal, but they rarely are.
MTB hubs are generally tougher and are better sealed.

Which is a benefit when you are touring in the rain.

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--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

"The Pomeranian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Wayne T said:

Since this is currently my only bike, would the MTB hubs be suited for

fast

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club rides. Are would the DA's be better all round for both fast rides

and

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touring?

The MTB hubs are fine for any style of riding -- the important difference is simply the
over-locknut dimension and maybe the booties. XTR is the DuraAce equivalent in MTB hubs; they are
very nice.

OK, thanks, I will check them out with builder.

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Bontrager Fairlanes are available @ 36h/700c (from Rivendell),

Are these faster lighter wheels? I take it since they are 36h, that

they

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are appropriate for heavy touring.

These are touring rims -- over 500g if I remember correctly. Because you are going with 135 mm
hubs, the OCR feature is less important.

Thanks. Will have to check these wheels out as well.

Wayne T said:

"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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Going from a Phil hub to a Dura Ace cassette is a _big_ step down in quality and longevity. It
also imposes bearing adjustments that need not be performed on the Phil hub. Bad idea.

Do you still think this even thought the Phil hub is 23 years old?

Yes. The only thing that may need servicing is the bearing cartridges-- replace them, and the hub is
as good as new.

Chalo

Jay Beattie said:

Most people, however, would be fine with Ultegra or Dura Ace hubs. As far as trading in, I would
not buy the Phil cassette hub unless I was feeling particularly rich. I would not scew around with
freewheels. I am through with freewheels.

You may be through with them, but the rest of the world isn't. If you need help from Joe Bob's
Lawnmower and Bicycle Service in East Doodlebug, you'll have better luck getting a new
freewheel than a
9/10sp cassette to put you back on the road. And if you're in Guanajuato or Ouagadougou or
Thiruvananthapuram, needing a cassette or freehub body-- any kind-- means that you're most likely
out of luck. Not so with a freewheel.

For best parts support, I'd use a Phil or Bullseye freewheel hub with friction-option or
friction-only shifting. That way I could use 5, 6, or 7 speed freewheels with any cog spacing. No
need to get to the next town with a bike shop to get rolling again-- freewheels can be scavenged if
necessary, compatible chains can be had at Wal-mart, and replacement bearings are available at a
bearing supply or at various machine repair businesses.

In the touring context, cassette hubs add nothing in the way of function to offset the shortcomings
they impose in compatibility, when compared to an oversize-axle threaded hub.

Chalo Colina

Chalo Colina

"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Wayne T said:

"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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Going from a Phil hub to a Dura Ace cassette is a _big_ step down in quality and longevity. It
also imposes bearing adjustments that need not be performed on the Phil hub. Bad idea.

Do you still think this even thought the Phil hub is 23 years old?

Yes. The only thing that may need servicing is the bearing cartridges-- replace them, and the hub
is as good as new.

OK, I certainly will take that into consideration. Thanks.

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Chalo

"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Jay Beattie said:

Most people, however, would be fine with Ultegra or Dura Ace hubs. As far as trading in, I would
not buy the Phil cassette hub unless I was feeling particularly rich. I would not scew around
with freewheels. I am through with freewheels.

You may be through with them, but the rest of the world isn't. If you need help from Joe Bob's
Lawnmower and Bicycle Service in East Doodlebug, you'll have better luck getting a new
freewheel than a
9/10sp cassette to put you back on the road.

Funny thing. I'm finding the opposite is true. Free wheel are a lot harder to come by than
cassettes. Also, I get the feeling cassettes hold up better. Also, freewheels are a royal pain in
the neck to change if you don't have a bench with a vice.

And if you're in

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Guanajuato or Ouagadougou or Thiruvananthapuram, needing a cassette or freehub body-- any kind--
means that you're most likely out of luck. Not so with a freewheel.

I submit to you that if you are in some small back woods country that they probably have only single
spead bikes and, therefore, you would be out of luck whether you had a freewheel or a cassette.

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For best parts support, I'd use a Phil or Bullseye freewheel hub with friction-option or
friction-only shifting. That way I could use 5, 6, or 7 speed freewheels with any cog spacing. No
need to get to the next town with a bike shop to get rolling again-- freewheels can be scavenged
if necessary, compatible chains can be had at Wal-mart,

Now, here you probably have a point. I have a feeling that 7/8 speed chains might be more available
than 9 speed ones. But, it appears that 9 speed is becoming the standard, so that might not be true,
or at least not in the near future. Also, you with a chain tool, you can fix a broken chain. I've
done it a couple of times recently on the same chain. You have to be carefull not to put the bike in
the largest front and rear gear at the same time. After the 2nd time, I carried a spare chain.
Should have just changed it but I was too lazy and didn't really want to take the time because I was
planning to convert to 9 speed cassette anyway.

and

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replacement bearings are available at a bearing supply or at various machine repair businesses.

In the touring context, cassette hubs add nothing in the way of function to offset the
shortcomings they impose in compatibility, when compared to an oversize-axle threaded hub.

Chalo Colina

Chalo Colina

Wayne T said:

"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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And if you're in Guanajuato or Ouagadougou or Thiruvananthapuram, needing a cassette or freehub
body-- any kind-- means that you're most likely out of luck. Not so with a freewheel.

I submit to you that if you are in some small back woods country that they probably have only
single spead bikes and, therefore, you would be out of luck whether you had a freewheel or a
cassette.

China and India (and hence lots of smaller countries round about there, and hence also much of the
world's population) make a million squillion freewheels a year.

There are certainly parts of the world where I would follow the advice given and mount a freewheel
rather than a cassette hub.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Wayne T said:

"Bluto" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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And if you're in Guanajuato or Ouagadougou or Thiruvananthapuram, needing a cassette or freehub
body-- any kind-- means that you're most likely out of luck. Not so with a freewheel.

I submit to you that if you are in some small back woods country that they probably have only
single spead bikes and, therefore, you would be out of luck whether you had a freewheel or a
cassette.

Looks like you may be forgetting that threaded hubs accept single freewheels too-- and fixed track
cogs-- as well as all of the various spacings of 5, 6, 7, and 8 speed clusters. All on the same hub,
on the same wheel.

Chalo Colina

David Damerell said:

China and India (and hence lots of smaller countries round about there, and hence also much of the
world's population) make a million squillion freewheels a year.

There are certainly parts of the world where I would follow the advice given and mount a freewheel
rather than a cassette hub.

Well, then certainly the touring bike of choice in those places would be the Flying Pigeon or
Shanghai Forever. These bikes will be very easy to get parts for.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery LaSalle, IL 815-223-1776
heronbicycles.comheronbicycles.comOpen ↗ tullios.comtullios.comOpen ↗

Todd Kuzma said:

David Damerell said:

There are certainly parts of the world where I would follow the advice given and mount a freewheel
rather than a cassette hub.

Well, then certainly the touring bike of choice in those places would be the Flying Pigeon or
Shanghai Forever. These bikes will be very easy to get parts for.

Ummm. I think there may be room for some compromise between repairability and riding one's own
machine...
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?