New Uni Event...

johnfoss said:

*I did not read all the above so excuse me if I'm repeating something
that was already suggested.

I don't like the 3-hops idea because then you are very close to
regular Trials. Call it Rolling Trials and then allowing sets of 3
hops kind of defeats the purpose.
*

The idea of allowing -sets- of 3-hops was dropped. The most recent ideas
regarding hops (prior to the idea of treating them like dabs) are as
follows:

- All rolling hops are allowable.
- Regarding static (stationary) hops: a maximum of 3-hops per Section
is allowed.

The dab idea is interesting, but I was thinking of a simple way to limit
hops and prevent them from becoming the dominant method of completing a
Section (which I don't think would be even possible for most Coker-class
Ridable Trials courses... but like I've said previously, I'd like the
rules to work equally well for all wheel size classes). As long as
rolling is the predominant method for completing a Section, I personally
wouldn't mind seeing riders use a hop or two (or three, which would be
the maximum per Section) for balance or whatever (without penalty). It
could make the event more competitive and would still ensure that
rolling was the primary and dominant method. On the other hand, if more
people like the dab idea (for static hops only) for the sake of
consistency with unlimited Trials, or for whatever reason, then I
wouldn't mind that being the rule, either. Please voice your opinions. A
running tab would be great. Vote for either:

3-hops Maximum Allowed per Section

- OR -

Dab rule

Thanks for your help,
HCR

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GILD said:

*as far as my (mainly TV originated) knowledge of trials go, 'DABS'
describes the act of taking your foot briefly off the pedals to
restore balance by 'dabbing' it on the ground
since this isn't quite in the spirit of the endeavour, they are
counted and used (against u) in the scoring system*

True, but I think with uni trials (at least) the "dab" has evolved a bit
to not just be foot-related. For example, if you're on an outdoor trials
course in Moab which has you hopping up a very steep rock face, and you
extend your hand onto that rock face to keep your balance, you've
dabbed.

But for this discussion, I think the point is that treating a hop as a
dab equals a "penalty point reduction" versus a full DQ. He who gets
through a section with the least dabs wins.

Experts correct me...I might be wrong. Most of my dabs tend to be with
my face, not feet or hands. 🙂

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I like the 3-hop max/Section rule better because it allows for an
accidental hop or a balance hop/correction hop without penalty, but
effectively prevents hopping from being the primary method for
completing a Section because no single Section can be completed in 3
hops. The concern that I am anticipating from some forum members,
however, is:

What if a rider rolls the majority of the obstacle and then uses his/her
3 hops to clear the most difficult part of the Section?

My answer to that question is:

I don't think that is too likely based on properly designing the Rolling
Trials course, but that concern could be addressed by extending the
3-hop max/Section rule such that...

The 3 allowable hops can NOT be used for the express purpose of
progressing through the course... in other words, 3 linear hops in the
direction toward the "exit line" is prohibited.

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markf said:

*not that you could trials style hop on a coker anyway*

ha ha ha

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HardcoreCokerRider said:

*The 3 allowable hops can NOT be used for the express purpose of
progressing through the course... in other words, 3 linear hops in the
direction toward the "exit line" is prohibited. *

I would also add that a hop can NOT be used specifically to clear part
of a Section that consists of an obstacle, such as a log pile or
something that is intended to be rolled. Thus you would be DQed for
attempting to hop over (or even on to) a log pile, rather than roll over
it. Basically the 3-Hops/Section rule is there just to allow for an
occasional (less than 3 per Section, obviously) balance hop or
correction hop, without penalty.

If we can get some rules finalized, we may be able to hold the first
annual Rolling Trials competition the day of Brian's release/ride party
at Rays ... so let me know your thoughts.

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HardcoreCokerRider said:

* ... so let me know your thoughts.
*

I think that there are too many stipulations about what constitutes
hops, and how many hops, etc...

I would suggest: Rolling hops are permitted. (as they also take
careful planning, not just hopping around until you are ready to go, the
part of trials that takes the most away from the actual trials event)

Especially on a course such as this, you would need to use skill and
calculation to include hops into your line (we all know how easy it is
to not hop in time and just smash into something!)

And that's all there should be about hops. IMHO

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HardcoreCokerRider said:

*I would also add that a hop can NOT be used specifically to clear
part of a Section that consists of an obstacle, such as a log pile or
something that is intended to be rolled.... Basically the
3-Hops/Section rule is there just to allow for an occasional (less
than 3 per Section, obviously) balance hop or correction hop, without
penalty. *

Now you're making it much more complicated. Call me a purist, but if
you really want rolling trials, it should be primarily rolling that gets
you through it. With the above you are allowing three static hops, plus
an unlimited amount of rolling hops. A careful rider can probably turn
most needed hops into rolling hops, so he gets all he needs. I still
think all hops should be dabs.

But perhaps it should depend on the nature of the course, or line. Some
will undoubtedly be much easier to roll than others. Though it will keep
things complicated, you could put a sign at the beginning of each line
listing the number of hops (of any kind) allowed.

There will still be some difficulty in the hop-detection department. Did
the rider hop, or did he just un-weight the cycle to get over that big
bump? It could be hard to tell.

Quoted message said:

*If we can get some rules finalized, we may be able to hold the first
annual Rolling Trials competition the day of Brian's release/ride
party at Rays. *

Don't worry about finalizing the rules. The best way to develop your
rules is to try them out and then be willing to make changes. Go for it!
Wish I could be there.

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If you allowed rollling hops, and included a penalty for time, perhaps
either based on a agreed upon time for that obstacle, or maybe even
based on the fastest rider of that obstacle.

That way, rolling hops could get you past an obstacle, but speed would
be your true ally

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Forgive me for being stupid,but: it sounds just like muni except with
no hopping aloud. 😕

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forrestunifreak said:

*Forgive me for being stupid,but: it sounds just like muni except
with no hopping aloud. 😕 *

Kinda like how a trials event is like hopping outside without the angry
pedestrians?

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Quoted message said:

-Originally posted by GILD-
*is it feasible to treat hops in the same way 'dabs' are treated in
other trials events? *

It seems like this might be a very good idea, GILD. I'd love to hear
more details about how this works... is it simply that a specified
number of points are subtracted each time a hand or foot touches the
ground, a wall, or other surface? How many points are subtracted? Thank
you very much for bringing up this excellent idea.

Quoted message said:

-Originally posted by johnfoss-
*Now you're making it much more complicated. Call me a purist, but if
you really want rolling trials, it should be primarily rolling that
gets you through it. With the above you are allowing three static
hops, plus an unlimited amount of rolling hops. A careful rider can
probably turn most needed hops into rolling hops, so he gets all the
hops he needs. *

I think you're right... for the most part. I agree that the 3-hop rule
is getting too complicated. I don't see how any rider could "turn needed
hops into rolling hops" in any useful way at all, though... especially
if a rolling hop requires a full pedal revolution in between hops and
can not be initiated from a stationary position (which I imagine would
be the basic requirement for a hop to be considered a "rolling hop"😉.
Thus in my opinion, rolling hops should be allowable (which would also
make incidental air derived from jumps, steep ramps, log piles, or other
obstacles a non-factor) and static hops should be treated using the dab
system. I really think this seems to make the most sense. Let me know
what you guys think:

* Rolling hops allowed
* Static hops treated using the dab system

The only caveat I would add to that is, a rider can NOT attempt to
complete the majority of a Section by hopping and accepting the dab
penalty... OR... the dab penalty must to be structured so that if a
rider did complete the Section by hopping, the penalty would be equal to
or greater than the points for completing that Section, thus no rider
would ever attempt to complete a Section by hopping.

Quoted message said:

-Originally posted by johnfoss-
*Don't worry about finalizing the rules. The best way to develop your
rules is to try them out and then be willing to make changes. Go for
it! Wish I could be there.*

That's good advice, John (regarding the rules)... I just want to have a
decent foundation. I wish you could be there, too... that would have
been awesome, but I'm sure there will be more events to follow.

Quoted message said:

-Originally posted by Brian MacKenzie-
*If you allowed rollling hops, and included a penalty for time,
perhaps either based on a agreed upon time for that obstacle, or maybe
even based on the fastest rider of that obstacle.

That way, rolling hops could get you past an obstacle, but speed would
be your true ally.*

That's an interesting idea, but I think adding speed changes the event
too much. Just completing the obstacle will be extremely difficult (for
many Sections) and I want that to remain the sole challenge. Your idea
reminds me of a comparison, though. I saw a show on speed rock climbing,
so to me your idea is to Rolling Trials like Speed Rock Climbing is to
regular rock climbing. Your idea could definitely be another event. At
this point, I want to concentrate on further developing Rolling Trials
before moving on to other types of events, though.

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HardcoreCokerRider said:

*I'd love to hear more details about how this works... is it simply
that a specified number of points are subtracted each time a hand or
foot touches the ground, a wall, or other surface? How many points are
subtracted?
*

this is where people with more information and experience of the trials
scene needs to step up as i'm afraid i quite simply do not know the
finer, technical details
as i understand the system, it 'allows' dabs to add to the general flow
of the event but penalises it sufficiently to ensure that no rider can
afford to 'plan' on 'using' a dabHardcoreCokerRider wrote:*I saw a show on speed rock

Quoted message said:

climbing *

which, while great fun to do, is simmilarly entertaining as
speed-ballet

or a good derailing...

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HardcoreCokerRider said:

*It seems like this might be a very good idea, GILD. I'd love to hear
more details about how this works... is it simply that a specified
number of points are subtracted each time a hand or foot touches the
ground, a wall, or other surface? How many points are subtracted?*

In regular bike trials (old unicycle trials), points for dabs are
*added*. The goal is toe end up with the lowest score possible. This
assumes you attempt all sections, and accept the maximum of 5 points for
the ones you couldn't complete, or on which you get too many dabs.
Maximum score per section is 5.

But the newer form of Unicycle Trials dosn't use dabs. Each section has
a point value, and you either get the points or you don't, after as many
tries as it takes you to make it through. This method is more popular
becuse it's much less complicated to judge. The main work (other than
setting up the course and marking all the sections) is determining the
score value of each section.

Quoted message said:

*I don't see how any rider could "turn needed hops into rolling hops"
in any useful way at all, though... especially if a rolling hop
requires a full pedal revolution in between hops and can not be
initiated from a stationary position (which I imagine would be the
basic requirement for a hop to be considered a "rolling hop"😉.
*

All this stuff on conditional types of hops will require a trained judge
on every section, to determine what types of hops were done. If rolling
hops are allowed, but a section is build in such a way where you need to
hop twice with less than a Coker wheel's circumference between them
(this is over 10', you can't rolling-hop both of them.

So what defines a rolling hop? You have to have a real specific
definition to be able to make a distinction in competition. My approach
is that it's hard enough to judge a hop vs. a not-hop, so all hops
should be treated alike.

Riding off a ramp or jump is not a hop. Including such shapes will
require further definition of what constitutes a hop, in that you can
ride over the jump and get minimal air, or you can push yourself at it
harder and launch, and get much bigger air. But to keep it simple, I'll
suggest anything where the wheel can get air from its own momentum would
not carry a hop penalty, as long as the rider rolls it.

Your best bet is to go out and experiement with a group of riders and a
set of obstacles. See all the different ways "rolling hop," "static hop"
and other things you might have to judge can be interpreted by various
riders, depending on the problem they're trying to solve.

You remember the evolutionary process of developing our sumo rules? Same
thing. You play the game, and modify the rules as you go to keep the
game working the way you want it.

For those of you that don't know, the rules we have used at the informal
Unicycle Sumo competitions at Unicons IX, X and XI were developed with
Andy's help. This process took place in the late 1980s at an elementary
school near Andy's house on Long Island. Bradley Bradley and I came to
him, because he was not yet old enough to drive.

So Sumo rules like not pulling on clothes, and staying on for 3 seconds,
developed from actual game experience, torn clothes, and arguments about
who stayed on.

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johnfoss said:

*But the newer form of Unicycle Trials dosn't use dabs. Each section
has a point value, and you either get the points or you don't, after
as many tries as it takes you to make it through. This method is more
popular becuse it's much less complicated to judge. The main work
(other than setting up the course and marking all the sections) is
determining the score value of each section.*

In the newer form of Unicycle Trials, what happens if a rider touches a
surface with their hand or foot? No penalty? Is it cause for DQ? It
wouldn't make much sense if one rider could touch their hand or foot on
the surface and score just as well as the rider who doesn't! Also, how
is the score value of each section determined?

Quoted message said:

-Originally posted by johnfoss-*
But to keep it simple, I'll suggest anything where the wheel can get
air from its own momentum would not carry a hop penalty, as long as
the rider rolls it.*

I agree with that 100%. Now we're getting somewhere! This is what I
think works best so far:

- 3 attempts to complete a Section
- All hops (rolling or static) are treated the same - as dabs
- Anything where the wheel can get air from its own momentum would not
carry a hop penalty

Thank you very much John... You have been instrumental in the
development of the rules for this new sport (and you came up with the
name, too)!

johnfoss said:

*Your best bet is to go out and experiement with a group of riders and
a set of obstacles. See all the different ways "rolling hop," "static
hop" and other things you might have to judge can be interpreted by
various riders, depending on the problem they're trying to solve.

You remember the evolutionary process of developing our sumo rules?
Same thing. You play the game, and modify the rules as you go to keep
the game working the way you want it.

For those of you that don't know, the rules we have used at the
informal Unicycle Sumo competitions at Unicons IX, X and XI were
developed with Andy's help. This process took place in the late 1980s
at an elementary school near Andy's house on Long Island. Bradley
Bradley and I came to him, because he was not yet old enough to
drive.

So Sumo rules like not pulling on clothes, and staying on for 3
seconds, developed from actual game experience, torn clothes, and
arguments about who stayed on.*

Thanks for some more good advice... that is exactly what I intend to do.
I remember the Sumo days at the elementary school fondly... that was a
lot of fun 😄 and now that you mention it... you are exactly right about
how we developed the rules! I suppose that experience gave me somewhat
of a foundation to use in trying to develop this new sport. Then and
now, I couldn't do it nearly as well without your insightful input.
Thanks, again.

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GILD said:

* to ensure that no rider can afford to 'plan' on 'using' a dab

*

you forget about strato-dabs.

the dab system is used in order to allow for more difficult lines and
for more accurately testing a rider's skill. why should a rider who
could potentially clear a line with a few dabs be given the same score
as a rider who could never complete it with unlimited dabs? the sport
would not be very accessible if new riders were unable to accumulate any
points in a competition.

in my opinion the dab system is vastly inferior to the u-system.

except for hops (which someone mentioned earlier) i cant see any need to
have dabs set up in the rules. with the lines that you propose, i cant
see a situation where someone could step off and remount.

furthermore, since hopping is more difficult and less useful on a coker
(than a 20"😉 i dont see why they should be penalized.

my concern with this competition is that i imagine that many riders
would successfully clear everything. since you dont allow hopping, it
seems that many, more challenging lines are ommitted.

edit: my favorite sumo rule is that an athlete is disqualified if his
diaper thingy is pulled off.

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Hi,

Having a form of rolling trials as an event could be a really fun thing
to consider- definately a fun thing to experiment with at a MUni
weekend.

A lot of the ideas that are mentioned in this thread are very similar to
the ideas that got tossed around when the original unitrials rules were
being developed. The first events counted the number of falls,
subsequent events adopted the biketrials format of counting dabs, and
since then it's evolved to it's present format.

Personally I think that the best rules for an event are the simplest
rules that require the least number of judgement calls and the least
amount of training required for judges (because sometimes judges can be
non-riders).

This is the beauty of the current unitrials format, which was inspired
by bouldering competition rules and is increasingly being referred to as
"freetrials" by the cycling community at large.

In the current rules, the approach is really simple. The organizers
set out a collection of sections (obstacles), collectively referred to
as the course. The rules are:
1) you're allowed unlimited attemps
2) there's no restriction on techniques
3) you make it with no dabs and you get a point;
5) if you don't make it you don't get a point.
6) the person who rides the most sections (gets the most points) wins.

That's it. All of these rules are objective, simple and easy to to
enforce. I think that's the key to success with rules.

The unitrials rules formerly included the requirment to assign point
values to each section corresponding to their difficulty, with reference
to the U-system for rating difficulty in trials. However, the problem
with this is that it's subjective, it adds a level of complexity, and it
requires experience by the course setter to ensure it's done well.
Additionally, as long as everyone has plenty of time to attempt all
sections, it doesn't matter what the difficulty ratings were- the person
who rides the most sections still wins! In other words, as long as
there aren't too many sections, difficulty ratings are completely
irrelevant for ranking competitors.

Secondly, counting hops, or dabs, sounds simple until you actually try
to do it in the chaos of a competition where you have 25 sections and
there are people running all over the place and far too few judges. It
can be done but it's confusing and errors inevitably happen.

Regarding hopping in trials:

While much of trials requires hopping techniques, you can't say that
trials is dominantly any kind of technique. In fact, the sign of a
well-designed trials course is that the course designer designs section
requiring all types of techniques, including both rolling and hopping.
If trials courses are dominated by hopping, it's just because this type
of section is a lot easier to make.

So in sum I think rolling trials could be a great idea but I think you
could organize it with exactly the same rules as conventional unitrials,
and just add the one technique restriction of no hopping allowed. In
other words, hopping constitutes a dab. Since no dabs are allowed, you
would just have to try again.

Kris

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danger_uni said:

The rules are:
1) you're allowed unlimited attemps
2) there's no restriction on techniques
3) you make it with no dabs and you get a point;
5) if you don't make it you don't get a point.
6) the person who rides the most sections (gets the most points) wins.

Is there a rule #4 about what happens when you do make dabs?

Klaas Bil - Newsgroup Addict
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what is a dab?

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TheoELind said:

*what is a dab? *

The rules I summarized were really simplified. The complete rules are
at www.krisholm.com/freetrials.

"Dab" is a term to describe when any part of your body touches the
ground, such as falling off (obviously), putting one foot down, putting
a hand down for balance, leaning against something with your leg, etc.
Basically only your pedal, bearing housing, cranks and tire are allowed
to touch the ground- everything else constitutes a dab.

In unitrials, if you dab, your turn is over. You have to try again.
This actually is really non-stressful because there's no limit to the
number of attempts allowed. If you screw up there's no consequence
except that you didn't get it. It's a lot more nervewracking if
someone is counting the number of times you screw up.

Kris

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danger_uni said:

*Having a form of rolling trials as an event could be a really fun
thing to consider- definately a fun thing to experiment with at a MUni
weekend.*

Thanks a lot, Kris… I’m psyched that the founding pioneer and foremost
authority on unitrials likes the idea of rolling trials! I believe a
place like Rays and various skateparks are also excellent (existing)
venues to host this type of event.

danger_uni said:

*Personally I think that the best rules for an event are the simplest
rules that require the least number of judgement calls and the least
amount of training required for judges (because sometimes judges can
be non-riders).

This is the beauty of the current unitrials format, which was inspired
by bouldering competition rules and is increasingly being referred to
as "freetrials" by the cycling community at large.

In the current rules, the approach is really simple. The organizers
set out a collection of sections (obstacles), collectively referred to
as the course. The rules are:

1) you're allowed unlimited attemps
2) there's no restriction on techniques
3) you make it with no dabs and you get a point;
5) if you don't make it you don't get a point.
6) the person who rides the most sections (gets the most points) wins.

That's it. All of these rules are objective, simple and easy to to
enforce. I think that's the key to success with rules.

So in sum I think rolling trials could be a great idea but I think you
could organize it with exactly the same rules as conventional
unitrials, and just add the one technique restriction of no hopping
allowed. In other words, hopping constitutes a dab. Since no dabs are
allowed, you would just have to try again.*

Having given your opinion much thought and read your complete rules, I
am in complete agreement with everything you’ve mentioned in the post
above for organized rolling trials competitions… except I do believe
that your complete rules would need a very minor bit of adaptation
beyond constituting a hop as a dab. The primary modification that I
believe is needed is the definition of classes based on wheel size,
although an unlimited class allowing any wheel size (or combination of
wheel sizes) would certainly be an excellent class to include. In my
opinion, the minimum wheel size class should be 26” in order to
intentionally make the handling characteristics more difficult than
smaller wheels and because of the speed advantage over smaller wheels.

Also, I have an idea for another form of competition for rolling trials.
I’ll be posting more info to the forum about this idea (which I’ll call
the “Database Competition” for now, for lack of a better term), but
essentially it is a worldwide, independent competition that enables
riders to submit proposed Sections to the “Database” (an Internet-based
database that stores info and photos of Sections worldwide, as well as
videos of riders that have attempted and cleaned approved Sections),
which keeps a running tab on how many riders have attempted the Section,
cleaned the Section (and if cleaned, in how many attempts), and the
rating of the riders that successfully cleaned the Sections. This
database will store all relevant information about the Section (where
it’s located, its current difficulty rating, etc.), the riders that
cleaned it (their age, rating, location, etc.) and will establish the
worldwide “Database” champion. It is possible that the Rolling Trials
champion (points leader) for organized competitions is the same as the
worldwide Database champion, but it isn’t necessarily the case. I’ll
post a lot more detailed info about my ideas for the Database
Competition in future posts.

Thanks so much for your insight, Kris… having the benefit of your
knowledge and experience is invaluable!
Andrew (HCR)

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