NICE evidence for cycling and helmets

drd said:

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has just
published an evidence briefing that suggests that there is good
evidence to support the use of helmets, amongst other things.

Very interesting, they say hlmet wearing can prevent facial injuries -
have I been wearing mine wrong?

drd wrote on 26/07/2006 08:24 +0100:

Quoted message said:

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has just
published an evidence briefing that suggests that there is good
evidence to support the use of helmets, amongst other things.

Get the briefing here: http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=346196

On the front page it says:

This publication was commissioned by the Health
Development Agency (HDA) but published after the HDA’s
functions were transferred to NICE on 1 April 2005. This
publication does not represent NICE guidance.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Response to :

Quoted message said:

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has just
published an evidence briefing that suggests that there is good
evidence to support the use of helmets, amongst other things.

Get the briefing here: http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=346196

Attewell et al. 2001, and Towner et al. 2002 - which should save some
people the trouble of downloading and reading the entire report. ;-)

--
Mark, UK
"We never do anything well until we cease to think about the manner of
doing it."

sothach said the following on 26/07/2006 08:38:

Quoted message said:

Very interesting, they say hlmet wearing can prevent facial injuries -
have I been wearing mine wrong?

Yes. Those slots are to see through and breathe through, not to
ventilate the top of your head :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain... it would have been nice not to have gone through all that pain
for the sake of spending £40..

i wear one as a matter of course now.

Paul Boyd said:

sothach said the following on 26/07/2006 08:38:

Quoted message said:

Very interesting, they say hlmet wearing can prevent facial injuries -
have I been wearing mine wrong?

Yes. Those slots are to see through and breathe through, not to
ventilate the top of your head :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Following on from Dan Cave's message. . .

Quoted message said:

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain... it would have been nice not to have gone through all that pain
for the sake of spending £40..

Proof that if only the Titanic had had 3/4 inch of polystyrene round it
then it would be afloat today.

Umm... You haven't been keeping up have you.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the porcelain business went down the pan
[email hidden]
2 Tees Close, Witham, Essex.
Gravity beer in Essex <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk>

Dan Cave said:

i wear one as a matter of course now.

Fair enough. Your choice - let's keep it that way. There are
undoubtedly many other cyclists who could claim the same, but even more
pedestrians (although I doubt that it would even cross their minds).

The report you posted is mostly OK, but very little new in it and not
particularly well formulated. If they took reducing injuries to
cyclists seriously, they would have made a recommendation to avoid
cyclepaths - for which there is stronger than 'review-level' evidence
available.

- Roy
(usually helmet wearing, but in this weather the risk of frying my
brain is far greater)

Dan Cave said:

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain... it would have been nice not to have gone through all that pain
for the sake of spending £40..

i wear one as a matter of course now.

What is the absolute best case that you think a helmet could have done
for you? Remember, it takes around 800J to fracture a skull and a
helmet would absorb 80J in ideal conditions. Depending on speeds, it's
quite possible that the helmet would have added 80J+ to the energy
needing dissipating in the first place.

In the best case a helmet would have turned your crash from very
serious, potentially life threatening, to very serious, potentially
life threatening.

In the worst case the extra size of your skull plus helmet would have
twisted your head around your neck and shaken your brain like a
blancmange. Tetraplegic, "vegetable" or dead?

Tim.

Dan Cave said the following on 26/07/2006 11:27:

Quoted message said:

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain... it would have been nice not to have gone through all that pain
for the sake of spending £40..

If you were hit hard enough to fracture your skull, I doubt that a
helmet would have made an awful lot of difference to you. I'm also not
sure (but may be wrong) that a fractured skull is a cause of migraines.
Severe headaches, yes, but a migraine is a nervous and/or chemical
disorder, to simplify it somewhat. It's a bit like saying you've got
flu, when you mean a cold. I do suffer from migraine, and it is a
different animal to a severe headache - I can't see, for a start.

Quoted message said:

i wear one as a matter of course now.

Good. I'm never sure why some people are quite so anti-helmet. I am
definitely anti-making-it-compulsory, but it is currently up to each
individual as to whether or not they wear one. I choose not to wear one
most of the time, but I will wear one if I'm doing technical off-road
riding. Not to stop me from being severely injured if I fall off, but
to protect against bumps and scrapes if (when!!) I fall off.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Dan Cave wrote on 26/07/2006 11:27 +0100:

Quoted message said:

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain... it would have been nice not to have gone through all that pain
for the sake of spending £40..

Your choice but have you repeated the accident with a helmet to know
that it would have saved you a lot of pain? Only the energy required
to fracture your skull comes in at around 700-1000 Joules. A cycling
helmet is designed to cope with around 90-100 Joules. So if you
fractured your skull, its highly unlikely that the helmet would have
made any difference.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

in message <[email hidden]>, Dan

Cave (') said:

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain...

Would it? The manufacturers don't think so, and don't claim so. Read the
disclaimers which came with your helmet. If you're hit by a car, a
helmet isn't going to help, and none of the manufacturers claims that it
will.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

:: Wisdom is better than weapons of war ::
:: Ecclesiastes 9:18 ::

Following on from Paul Boyd's message. . .

Quoted message said:

Good. I'm never sure why some people are quite so anti-helmet. I am
definitely anti-making-it-compulsory, but it is currently up to each
individual as to whether or not they wear one. I choose not to wear one
most of the time, but I will wear one if I'm doing technical off-road
riding. Not to stop me from being severely injured if I fall off, but
to protect against bumps and scrapes if (when!!) I fall off.

Because the meme 'a helmet is a necessary accessory' is evil.

a) I have a helmet /which will protect me/ if I'm in an accident
b) You can't cycle to school because you don't have a helmet
c) _You_ can't be a safe cyclist without a helmet
d) Cycling is dangerous

So the meme (a) gives false assurance, (b) prevents people going about
their everyday lives, (c) spreads and (d) fuels paranoia.

Pound for pound investing in training is at least *50 times* more
effective than polystyrene.

Fair enough if you want to push the envelope over tree roots and rocks,
or take risks in race - then you'll go prepared for all sorts of
troubles.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the deckchair business folded
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

In article <[email hidden]>

Dan Cave said:

from my personal perspecitive, I was hit by a car when i was 17, and
having not had a helmet on, i suffered a fractured scull, received 19
stitches and migranes for nearly 9 months afterwards...

Had I had the foresight to buy a helmet it would have saved me alot of
pain...

You have no way of knowing that a flimsy bit of plastic would have made
any significant difference to the injuries you received. It may have
reduced the stitch count, but beyond that ...
It's even possible that you'd have ended up with a broken neck rather
than a fractured skull.

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul

Boyd (') said:

Quoted message said:

i wear one as a matter of course now.

Good.  I'm never sure why some people are quite so anti-helmet.

Is /anyone/ anti-helmet? I'm certainly against people making unfounded
claims about the effectiveness of helmets, and I'm certainly against
people trying to enforce their superstitions on the rest of us, but I
have a helmet - in fact I have two - and I wear them when I think it's
appropriate to do so.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
;; doing it for money, stop now.
;; Rainer Deyke

"Paul Boyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i wear one as a matter of course now.

Good. I'm never sure why some people are quite so anti-helmet. I am
definitely anti-making-it-compulsory, but it is currently up to each
individual as to whether or not they wear one.

Cue the quote from Hansard...when helmet wearing reaches a certain
threshold, the gov't intends to introduce an MHL.

Dr. Vecht?

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:07:04 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Your choice but have you repeated the accident with a helmet to know
that it would have saved you a lot of pain? Only the energy required
to fracture your skull comes in at around 700-1000 Joules. A cycling
helmet is designed to cope with around 90-100 Joules

Got any references for those figures Tony? They sound like a useful
tool to drag out against well meaning but slightly clueless people.

Tim

drd said:

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has just
published an evidence briefing that suggests that there is good
evidence to support the use of helmets, amongst other things.

Get the briefing here: http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=346196

Titled "Transport interventions promoting safe cycling and walking". No
mention of effectiveness of helmets for pedestrians.

What a narrow, isolated world these folks live in.

Simon Brooke said the following on 26/07/2006 14:16:

Quoted message said:

Is /anyone/ anti-helmet?

Just the impression I get here.

Quoted message said:

in fact I have two - and I wear them when I think it's
appropriate to do so.

Both at the same time???? Actually, you could use one to protect your
face :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Paul Boyd said:

Simon Brooke said the following on 26/07/2006 14:16:

Quoted message said:

Is /anyone/ anti-helmet?

Just the impression I get here.

Quoted message said:

in fact I have two - and I wear them when I think it's
appropriate to do so.

Both at the same time???? Actually, you could use one to protect your
face :-)

I was thinking about getting one of them hockey goalie masks, it'd go
with the skelington gloves and shirt. Kewl!