Nicole & the comic

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

The comic does not do Nicole justice IMO, in terms of lack of front page
coverage of her achievements. So, go on... email the comic and suggest, nay
*demand* that she have the entire front cover to herself this week. Go on...
it's cyclingATipcmediaDOTcom

What are these achievements this year?
Until she rode the nationals she had hardly competed.
Women's racing in this country is hardly competitive although it's great
that Nicole is raising the profile of women's cycling.
There was plenty about Nicole in recent issues - she even made a main
part of the editorial - although with my cynic's hat on, what she is
saying is just what everyone always says.

Now, put her on a trike and she should have a full issue to herself ;-)

John B
(who no longer buys CW due to its rip off price increases and
inconsistent and unbalanced news coverage)

Quoted message said:

What are these achievements this year?
Until she rode the nationals she had hardly competed.

Injury. On her first outing back after injury, she wins the nationals. Then
soon after, on her first attempt at the Giro Donne, she wins it. If that isn't
a stunning achievement, I don't know what is.

Quoted message said:

Women's racing in this country is hardly competitive although it's great
that Nicole is raising the profile of women's cycling.

I wonder why...

Quoted message said:

There was plenty about Nicole in recent issues - she even made a main
part of the editorial - although with my cynic's hat on, what she is
saying is just what everyone always says.

I'm glad I'm not as cynical as you appear to be, life *that* cynical sounds
awfully sad.

Quoted message said:

Now, put her on a trike and she should have a full issue to herself ;-)

She deserves a full issue anyhow ;-)

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wonder why...

Easy.

Yes, my question was rhetorical.

Quoted message said:

Few competitors which makes it not worthwhile to put on women only events.

Chicken & egg situation

Quoted message said:

Were you taken in by Millar then? I was.

yes, I was. But that doesn't mean I'll assume that because Millar cheated that
Nicole does.

Quoted message said:

I was wrong, as were many
others including the WCPP which he could have completely destroyed.
Cycle racing has lost its way.

I honestly don't think the drugs issue in cycling is any worse then in any
other major sport. I do, however, think that it gets more publicity in cycling
than in other sports. This is not condoning the drugs taking - I *loathe* it -
it is cheating. But look at it now coming out of the woodwork as regards
top-level athletics. We hear about footballers taking "recreational" drugs, yet
they aren't banned from playing football it seems. Ullrich got done for taking
"recreational" stuff. Athletes Marion Davies & her husband are under
investigation for alleged doping irregularities and over the weekend, they
still compete (if cyclists they wouldn't have been allowed to start in the Tour
if under formal investigation).

Quoted message said:

There are parents pulling their kids out
of the sport due to the drugs issue.

Entirely possible, but if they are, then I think they are being *over* cynical,
as we aren't seeing massive loss of support for drug-riddled athletics or
football. The papers are full of stories about various football stars in
drug-induced hazes, and getting involved in all sorts of unsavoury behaviour,
yet this is somehow glorified by the media and we still have football pitches
full of kids with parents screaming alongside for their offspring to play.

Quoted message said:

It seems so endemic that it can now be argued that to be cynical is
responsible.

I think it's defeatist. Drug-taking has been around in top-level sport for a
very, very long time - not just cycling. It needs to be exposed in all sports.
Cycling gets a lot more publicity on this issue than many other sports - There
was an article in the Observer over the weekend about top level athletes
seeking gene therapies to boost performance see

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1258659,00.html

which includes, "Sweeney, a professor of physiology at Pennsylvania University
School of Medicine, has refused to name them, but has admitted some coaches had
also offered their runners as guinea pigs for his experiments, even though his
research has so far only involved mice. One coach even offered his entire
high-school football team."

I'm not exactly certain why so much focus is given on the issue of drug-taking
in cycling, as I think it's pretty clear clear it goes on in top-level *sport*
and I'm sure the lower ranks of *sport* trying to emulate their heroes and
heroines will have people who cheat too.

But what I won't do is be as cynical about *all* top-level cyclists as you
appear to be and I'm not going to be more cynical about cycling than any other
sport.

Quoted message said:

Maybe. She is a good rider.

She's a stunningly brilliant rider never mind a good rider.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

What are these achievements this year?
Until she rode the nationals she had hardly competed.

Injury. On her first outing back after injury, she wins the nationals. Then
soon after, on her first attempt at the Giro Donne, she wins it. If that isn't
a stunning achievement, I don't know what is.

I agree.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Women's racing in this country is hardly competitive although it's great
that Nicole is raising the profile of women's cycling.

I wonder why...

Easy. Few competitors which makes it not worthwhile to put on women only events.
Those that do try can be put off by having to ride with the men, where
speeds and distances are can be too high.
Surrey League is leading the way with their promotions but it needs to
happen throughout the country.
Unfortunately (for women) it is very much a male dominated sport.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There was plenty about Nicole in recent issues - she even made a main
part of the editorial - although with my cynic's hat on, what she is
saying is just what everyone always says.

I'm glad I'm not as cynical as you appear to be, life *that* cynical sounds
awfully sad.

I'm cynical about the cleanliness of cycle racing.
Please don't make assumptions about the rest of my life just because I'm
cynical about what top riders say.

Were you taken in by Millar then? I was. I was wrong, as were many
others including the WCPP which he could have completely destroyed.
Cycle racing has lost its way. There are parents pulling their kids out
of the sport due to the drugs issue.
It seems so endemic that it can now be argued that to be cynical is responsible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, put her on a trike and she should have a full issue to herself ;-)

She deserves a full issue anyhow ;-)

Maybe. She is a good rider. I'd like to see women's racing given more
coverage, but not out of proportion to the amount that takes place.

John B

Quoted message said:

Do you have a suggestion?

Yes, but probably not for print.

Quoted message said:

No-one is saying that

Really? Your quote of "although with my cynic's hat on, what she is saying is
just what everyone always says." is pretty clear in its meaning.

Quoted message said:

It is hardly surprising that cycling racing has the reputation it has.

I'm not saying that cheats should be let off, nor am I saying that it's not as
bad as other sports, what I am saying as I don't think other sports are any
more clean. As far as I am concerned, Millar and any other cheat should be
barred for life and have their earnings from cheating confiscated. I also think
the people who encouraged, supplied and supported drug-taking within a team or
to any individual sports' person should have similar sanction against them. I
see no difference between the drug-pusher on the street corner and the
drug-pusher in the peloton, in the gym, changing room, pitch, track or field.
This should be the same for *any* sport. What I find surprising is the apparent
lack of the same level of interest in exposing drugs in other sports as there
is in exposing drugs in cycling. This does *not* mean that I think any cycling
cheat should be let off or treated lightly.

Quoted message said:

Indeed the introduction of such claims emphasises the perception that
excuses are being made rather than taking the actions required.

Wrong, see above. What I won't do, however, is single out cycling as being
*the* sport to be abhorred for having a drug-problem.

Quoted message said:

Of course. But i'd like to see cycling stop trying to play the problem
down by saying other sports are worse.

I don't think it is generally. What I do think is other sports perhaps being
more successful at hiding it than cycling combined with a media interested in
putting cycling in a negative light much more than a positive one.

Quoted message said:

Having had a friend (and a promising young international) die when
having gone to race in Holland, and been involved in most levels of
cycle racing for a long time I cannot see that improvements will be made
without drastic measures.
I'd like to see far more draconian penalties, including the greater
introduction of the sporting fraud charges against the cheats.
And far far too many have lied through their teeth in their attempts to
claim they are 'Clean"
Not to be cynical in the face of such a background smells of pushing
issue under the carpet.

I agree with all of that, all I am saying is don't be so cynical as to think
the issue is only *that* bad in cycling nor to suggest heavily that Nicole
Cooke is a drug-taker too.

I have a family member who was heavily into drugs, and paid a heavy price, but
what I won't do is having seen his example then assume everyone else is the
same. Cynicism of that high a level is downright destructive and achieves
naught.

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Cynicism of that high a level is downright destructive and achieves
naught.

Cycling of that high a level is downright destructive and achieves naught?

Just a thought :-)

(I don't mean to single out NC by that, obviously her achievements are
little short of astonishing - but as for pro cycling in general...)

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Few competitors which makes it not worthwhile to put on women only events.

Chicken & egg situation

Do you have a suggestion?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Were you taken in by Millar then? I was.

yes, I was. But that doesn't mean I'll assume that because Millar cheated that
Nicole does.

No-one is saying that. But so many top cyclists have said they are
'clean' only to be found out later. worse, many are still riding having
received little more than a slapped wrist. The punishments dished out
seem more for having teh stupdity of being caught rather that for
actually taking the drugs.
It is hardly surprising that cycling racing has the reputation it has.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was wrong, as were many
others including the WCPP which he could have completely destroyed.
Cycle racing has lost its way.

I honestly don't think the drugs issue in cycling is any worse then in any
other major sport.

I don't know. but in any case I find the allegations often bandied about
that athletes and footballers may be far worse completely irrelevant.
Indeed the introduction of such claims emphasises the perception that
excuses are being made rather than taking the actions required.

Quoted message said:

But look at it now coming out of the woodwork as regards
top-level athletics. We hear about footballers taking "recreational" drugs, yet
they aren't banned from playing football it seems.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are parents pulling their kids out
of the sport due to the drugs issue.

Entirely possible, but if they are,

No *if*. They are.

Quoted message said:

then I think they are being *over* cynical,

Sorry, but when they see young riders dying then I wouldn't call that
being *over* cynical.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems so endemic that it can now be argued that to be cynical is
responsible.

I think it's defeatist.

I'd call it realistic.

Drug-taking has been around in top-level sport for a

Quoted message said:

very, very long time - not just cycling.

That comes across as an excuse again. let's give life bans to all those caught.
Let's see the cheats thrown out of the sport for good as soon as they
test positive.
Let's not keep accepting excuses like "it was really for my
mother-in-law's dog".

Quoted message said:

It needs to be exposed in all sports.

Of course. But i'd like to see cycling stop trying to play the problem
down by saying other sports are worse.

Quoted message said:

I'm not exactly certain why so much focus is given on the issue of drug-taking
in cycling, as I think it's pretty clear clear it goes on in top-level *sport*
and I'm sure the lower ranks of *sport* trying to emulate their heroes and
heroines will have people who cheat too.

Unfortunately true.

Quoted message said:

But what I won't do is be as cynical about *all* top-level cyclists as you
appear to be

Having had a friend (and a promising young international) die when
having gone to race in Holland, and been involved in most levels of
cycle racing for a long time I cannot see that improvements will be made
without drastic measures.
I'd like to see far more draconian penalties, including the greater
introduction of the sporting fraud charges against the cheats.
And far far too many have lied through their teeth in their attempts to
claim they are 'Clean"
Not to be cynical in the face of such a background smells of pushing
issue under the carpet.

Quoted message said:

She's a stunningly brilliant rider never mind a good rider.

Agreed.

John B

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:49:20 GMT, in <[email hidden]>,

JohnB said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have a suggestion?

Yes, but probably not for print.

This was a serious question.
What do you think would encourage more girls and women into cycle racing?

John B

And the non-serious answer is "Remove the saddles"

--
DISCLAIMER: My email box is private property.Email which
appears in my inbox is mine to do what I like with.
Anything which is sent to me (whether intended or not)
may, if I so desire, form a legal and binding contract.

in message <[email hidden]>,

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers (') said:

I honestly don't think the drugs issue in cycling is any worse then in
any other major sport. I do, however, think that it gets more
publicity in cycling than in other sports. This is not condoning the
drugs taking - I loathe it - it is cheating

I confess to being not terribly interested in cycle racing, but as a not
terribly interested member of the public the strong impression I've got
is that taking drugs (or 'dietary supplements' of dodgy provenance) is
more or less universal at the top level of the sport. I don't have the
same impression of any other sport. Now that may be because as an
uninformed member of the public I'm just wrong, but it remains the case
that professional cyclists sustain substantially greater power outputs
over substantially longer periods than any other human athletes, so
either Lance Armstrong could make a clean sweep of all the gold medals
in all disciplines at this year's Olympics, or there's something else
going on.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have a suggestion?

Yes, but probably not for print.

Quoted message said:

No-one is saying that

Really? Your quote of "although with my cynic's hat on, what she is saying is
just what everyone always says." is pretty clear in its meaning.

The meaning is that it is the same as what Millar and all the others
have said.
No more no less.
The liars have dragged teh innocent fair-playing riders into the mess
with them.
As so many who expressed innocence have subsequently proved to have been
cheating it affects the perception of the whole peloton.
When I now see a professional race i now no longer can be sure if any of
them are cheating or not and i'm not alone. that is a sad reflection on
how deep rooted the problem now is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is hardly surprising that cycling racing has the reputation it has.

I'm not saying that cheats should be let off, nor am I saying that it's not as
bad as other sports, what I am saying as I don't think other sports are any
more clean. As far as I am concerned, Millar and any other cheat should be
barred for life and have their earnings from cheating confiscated. I also think
the people who encouraged, supplied and supported drug-taking within a team or
to any individual sports' person should have similar sanction against them. I
see no difference between the drug-pusher on the street corner and the
drug-pusher in the peloton, in the gym, changing room, pitch, track or field.
This should be the same for *any* sport. What I find surprising is the apparent
lack of the same level of interest in exposing drugs in other sports as there
is in exposing drugs in cycling. This does *not* mean that I think any cycling
cheat should be let off or treated lightly.

Quoted message said:

Indeed the introduction of such claims emphasises the perception that
excuses are being made rather than taking the actions required.

Wrong

Then we will have to agree to disagree.

Quoted message said:

, see above. What I won't do, however, is single out cycling as being
*the* sport to be abhorred for having a drug-problem.

But cycling is the activity I am passionate about and wish to see
develop and grow whereas TBH I couldn't care less about weight-lifting,
football or hitting coloured balls down pockets, all of which are known
to have drug problems. Those sports (and others) should clean themselves
up too.
I make no apologies for singling cycling out, because I know little
about the other sports and can have some, albeit limited, influence in
cycling circles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course. But i'd like to see cycling stop trying to play the problem
down by saying other sports are worse.

I don't think it is generally. What I do think is other sports perhaps being
more successful at hiding it than cycling combined with a media interested in
putting cycling in a negative light much more than a positive one.

Quite possibly. Perhaps many in the media see cyclists as being a good
group to have an occasional pop at.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Having had a friend (and a promising young international) die when
having gone to race in Holland, and been involved in most levels of
cycle racing for a long time I cannot see that improvements will be made
without drastic measures.

I agree with all of that, all I am saying is don't be so cynical as to think
the issue is only *that* bad in cycling

? But I don't.

Quoted message said:

nor to suggest heavily that Nicole
Cooke is a drug-taker too.

That is a completely unfounded comment.

John B

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

Do you have a suggestion?

Yes, but probably not for print.

This was a serious question.
What do you think would encourage more girls and women into cycle racing?

John B

[email hidden] (dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I honestly don't think the drugs issue in cycling is any worse then in
any other major sport. I do, however, think that it gets more publicity
in cycling than in other sports. This is not condoning the drugs taking
- I *loathe* it - it is cheating.

It's not just cheating, it's damaging or completely destroying the
health of athletes.

Quoted message said:

But look at it now coming out of the woodwork as regards top-level
athletics. We hear about footballers taking "recreational" drugs, yet
they aren't banned from playing football it seems. Ullrich got done for
taking "recreational" stuff.

Recreational drug taking is a completely separate issue AFAIAC.
Testing for performance enhancing drugs simply makes it more likely to
be detected.

--
Dave...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This was a serious question.
What do you think would encourage more girls and women into cycle racing?

John B

And the non-serious answer is "Remove the saddles"

ROFL!

Whatever, lets just get more... fit women in lycra are hot, full stop.
I still regularly look at the pics I took of La Grande Boucle Feminine
in France 2 years ago :-)

2nd down, 2nd in is still my fav!
http://www.msa.fotopic.net/c9043.html

I'll put my PC hat back on now, sorry :-)

--
Mark (MSA)
This post is packaged by intellectual weight, not volume. Some settling
of contents may have occurred during transmission

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:35:03 GMT someone who may be Simon Brooke
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

it remains the case
that professional cyclists sustain substantially greater power outputs
over substantially longer periods than any other human athletes, so
either Lance Armstrong could make a clean sweep of all the gold medals
in all disciplines at this year's Olympics, or there's something else
going on.

One of the things that is going on is that these athletes are using
a machine that is three times as efficient as walking (and I assume
running). The cyclists' feats of athleticism don't surprise me,
especially as I have seen people who run in competitions amazed at
how far and fast they can go on a bike.

Personally I have little interest in cycle racing, though I do
appreciate the hard work that goes into it in much the same way as I
understand the hard work that goes into rowing races. I suspect that
we will soon see them pedalling exercise bikes the way "safety" is
going. As someone with little interest I am concerned if people harm
themselves in "going for gold". However, harming oneself need not be
by taking (some) drugs, there are a number of other ways of harming
oneself and I'm not convinced that (some) drugs are the worst way of
harming oneself while competing in athletics.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

"Dave Kahn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers) wrote in

message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But look at it now coming out of the woodwork as regards top-level
athletics. We hear about footballers taking "recreational" drugs, yet
they aren't banned from playing football it seems. Ullrich got done for
taking "recreational" stuff.

Recreational drug taking is a completely separate issue AFAIAC.
Testing for performance enhancing drugs simply makes it more likely to
be detected.

Yes. The idea that, for example, a footballer might be trying to improve his
performance by smoking dope is strange. He may be accused of all sorts of
things but I don't think cheating is one of them.

tony R.

tony R [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Yes. The idea that, for example, a footballer might be trying to improve his
performance by smoking dope is strange. He may be accused of all sorts of
things but I don't think cheating is one of them.

The only reason I could ever think of for dope being a "banned
substance" in sport was that it might increase the pain threshold. This
effect would probably be more than mitigated by the fact that the
athlete would be unlikely to make it more than a few yards before
collapsing on the floor and giggling, especially in a sport like cycling
where the contestants often look even more ridiculous than other sports.

Jon

John B wondered:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you think would encourage more girls and women into cycle racing?

and Richard Bates suggested:

Quoted message said:

And the non-serious answer is "Remove the saddles"

Or maybe just route as much of the ride as possible over pavé :-)

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

MSA said:

Whatever, lets just get more... fit women in lycra are hot, full stop.
I still regularly look at the pics I took of La Grande Boucle Feminine
in France 2 years ago :-)

2nd down, 2nd in is still my fav!
http://www.msa.fotopic.net/c9043.html

Someone gets to massage those legs after the race.

Sorry

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

James Annan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Cynicism of that high a level is downright destructive and achieves
naught.

Cycling of that high a level is downright destructive and achieves naught?

Just a thought :-)

When you consider the undisputed health benefits of utility cycling
you have to wonder by just how much the problems we're seeing now can
be simply the result of over-training and too much hard racing.

--
Dave...

Achilles only had an Achilles heel. I have an entire Achilles body. -
Woody Allen