'No blame' over cyclists' deaths

"B.G. Finlay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A cyclist who survived a car crash in north Wales in which four members
of a cycling club died has said it is wrong to blame anyone for what
happened.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4601294.stm

Blair

I couldn't agree more this is not an argument over cagers v cyclists.In
tragic accidents even when blame is found it doesn't make anyone winners.

I agree that Helen's comments about the speed of the police comments were
quick but they were made at the scene and with understanding of what gone
on.
Ten seconds either way and we would have nothing to talk about.
The enormity of this tragedy for all those caught up in it should not be
forgotten or trivialised into them and us arguments.
Love John

B.G. Finlay said:

A cyclist who survived a car crash in north Wales in which four members
of a cycling club died has said it is wrong to blame anyone for what
happened.

And I agree with him, although obviously my point of view is less
prominent than his.

Freak ice patches on bends will catch anyone out. The driver could have
been travelling at 20mph and still ended up in the same position. Yes,
of course it is his responsibility to conduct his metal box around
safely, but there's no such thing as a risk-free existence. There's
always a line to draw, and this time, he got caught out.

Maybe the council were a bit lax in not gritting quickly enough, but the
gritters aren't exactly set up as an emergency service.

The bikes could have hit ice themselves and gone down - it's not
inconceivable that injury or death could result from that, either. In
fact, the mere fact that there were riders out on road bikes suggests
that the general conditions were not icy.

It was a tragic accident. It's rare that genuine (i.e. non-attributable)
accidents of this magnitude occur; this seems to have been one of the few.

Let's drop the blaming, let the affected get on with their grieving and
then their lives; and let's hope that this tragedy re-emphasizes the
potential destruction cars can cause, and makes people think about their
driving. Maybe other lives will be saved as a result.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/

Mark Tranchant said:

Freak ice patches on bends will catch anyone out. The driver could have
been travelling at 20mph and still ended up in the same position.

However, it is far less likely that the cyclists would have died if they
were hit at 20 mph.

I *have* lost control on ice, driving a car. However, as I knew there
might be ice on the road, I drove at an appropriate speed to minimise
the risk to anyone else if I lost control. I did lose control, and
slide very *slowly* and gracefully into the verge and no harm was done.
Had there been a pedestrian or cyclist there, I doubt they would have
died. It was still entirely my fault, though.

R.

Quoted message said:

A cyclist who survived a car crash in north Wales in which four members
of a cycling club died has said it is wrong to blame anyone for what
happened.

He was also interviewed on ITN News last night (Tues 10/1/06) - must have
taken huge courage for him to agree to this interview so soon after the
incident.

He pointed out that the driver of the car was understandably in a terrible
state at the scene and he hoped that he would get counselling for the trauma
he will have to live with for the rest of his life. Even if the police did
prosecute (which looks unlikely), I am guessing the driver is already
suffering a far higher penalty than anything the courts could offer.

Of course the family and friends of those killed are also going through hell
(and my thoughts are with them at the moment), but at least they won't have
to ask themselves the question "What if I was driving a bit slower?".

I would hope that if any good could come of such a terrible tragedy, this
incident will remind all drivers how vulnerable cyclists are while they are
out on the roads pursuing their sport, and to treat them with the due care
and respect they deserve.

Ta
Richard

Richard said:

Mark Tranchant said:

Freak ice patches on bends will catch anyone out. The driver could have
been travelling at 20mph and still ended up in the same position.

However, it is far less likely that the cyclists would have died if they
were hit at 20 mph.

I *have* lost control on ice, driving a car. However, as I knew there
might be ice on the road, I drove at an appropriate speed to minimise
the risk to anyone else if I lost control.

Given that there was an accident an hour before at the same place
perhaps some blame is to be laid with the police. It is all well and
good asking for the local authority to re-grit the road but why didn't
they put up one of their SLOW signs in the meantime?
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Bronzie said:

He pointed out that the driver of the car was understandably in a
terrible state at the scene and he hoped that he would get
counselling for the trauma he will have to live with for the rest of
his life. Even if the police did prosecute (which looks unlikely), I
am guessing the driver is already suffering a far higher penalty than
anything the courts could offer.

It is possible that the act of being prosecuted and having a court hearing
would be a very cathartic and helpful experience for the driver as he'd know
exactly how much to blame himself. I agree that it's unlikely he'd be even
banned for the driving error he made. However, I think it would be
symbolically very important if he were tried, as in the case of the Selby
car/train crash, where the car driver was prosecuted for falling asleep at
the wheel, which has made it less acceptable for people to drive whilst
tired. In my view.

--
Ambrose

Phil Cook said:

Given that there was an accident an hour before at the same place
perhaps some blame is to be laid with the police. It is all well and
good asking for the local authority to re-grit the road but why didn't
they put up one of their SLOW signs in the meantime?

I also wonder about the people living nearby who commented to the press
about all the cars they heard skidding about on that section of road for
some time before the incident happened. Did it not occur to any of them
that there might be a serious accident sooner or later, or was it just
Somebody Else's Problem?

d.

Quoted message said:

I also wonder about the people living nearby who commented to the press
about all the cars they heard skidding about on that section of road for
some time before the incident happened. Did it not occur to any of them
that there might be a serious accident sooner or later, or was it just
Somebody Else's Problem?

d.

But what practically could they do? The police were already aware of the
road conditions, as were the local council gritting depot. If I were in
their position, I can't imagine being able help alleviate the conditions.

I agree that a "POLICE SLOW" sign being left on the approach to the bend
would have been the most helpful thing until the gritting lorry could
return - can't imagine why this was not done unless the police car attending
the first incident didn't have one on board.

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Bronzie said:

He pointed out that the driver of the car was understandably in a
terrible state at the scene and he hoped that he would get
counselling for the trauma he will have to live with for the rest of
his life. Even if the police did prosecute (which looks unlikely), I
am guessing the driver is already suffering a far higher penalty than
anything the courts could offer.

It is possible that the act of being prosecuted and having a court hearing
would be a very cathartic and helpful experience for the driver as he'd know
exactly how much to blame himself. I agree that it's unlikely he'd be even
banned for the driving error he made. However, I think it would be
symbolically very important if he were tried, as in the case of the Selby
car/train crash, where the car driver was prosecuted for falling asleep at
the wheel, which has made it less acceptable for people to drive whilst
tired. In my view.

I agree. Maybe that will come out in the enquiry rather than having a
trial. I suppose a trial in this case would be in the public interest
becasue it would focus attention on prevention of future incidents and
provide a sense of closure on both sides.

DWDCA and a 150 quid fine could be thought of as providing the right
balance between 'it was a forseeable and hence preventable incident'
and 'pure bad luck' but such a pre-judgement is not appropriate to make
before all the facts are out.

Trying to unjerk my knee here, I am reluctant to accept that nothing
should be done. I also cannot subscribe to the POV that there was
wanton disregard for the safety and wellbeing of others. It was a minor
error of judgement that had extremely serious consequences. Whichever
person it was who said "it's not about taking a few big risks, but
about taking little risks a lot" (paraphrase) had it spot on. The other
driver that morning made the same mistake and effectively got away with
it. The liability issue is more clear, for whatever recompense that can
ever be made for such a loss.

...d

"B.G. Finlay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A cyclist who survived a car crash in north Wales in which four members
of a cycling club died has said it is wrong to blame anyone for what
happened.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4601294.stm

TBH I think a lot of the comments on here along the lines of "How can one
car kill so many people" were ridiculous. It's not hard to work out that if
you've got people riding in a close pack and a sideways car, it's going to
be a big accident. I wasn't there, and I'm not an expert accident
investigator, so I'm not going to comment on the actions of the driver or
riders.

David Martin said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Bronzie said:

He pointed out that the driver of the car was understandably in a
terrible state at the scene and he hoped that he would get
counselling for the trauma he will have to live with for the rest of
his life. Even if the police did prosecute (which looks unlikely), I
am guessing the driver is already suffering a far higher penalty than
anything the courts could offer.

It is possible that the act of being prosecuted and having a court hearing
would be a very cathartic and helpful experience for the driver as he'd know
exactly how much to blame himself. I agree that it's unlikely he'd be even
banned for the driving error he made. However, I think it would be
symbolically very important if he were tried, as in the case of the Selby
car/train crash, where the car driver was prosecuted for falling asleep at
the wheel, which has made it less acceptable for people to drive whilst
tired. In my view.

I agree. Maybe that will come out in the enquiry rather than having a
trial. I suppose a trial in this case would be in the public interest
becasue it would focus attention on prevention of future incidents and
provide a sense of closure on both sides.

DWDCA and a 150 quid fine could be thought of as providing the right
balance between 'it was a forseeable and hence preventable incident'
and 'pure bad luck' but such a pre-judgement is not appropriate to make
before all the facts are out.

Trying to unjerk my knee here, I am reluctant to accept that nothing
should be done. I also cannot subscribe to the POV that there was
wanton disregard for the safety and wellbeing of others. It was a minor
error of judgement that had extremely serious consequences. Whichever
person it was who said "it's not about taking a few big risks, but
about taking little risks a lot" (paraphrase) had it spot on. The other
driver that morning made the same mistake and effectively got away with
it. The liability issue is more clear, for whatever recompense that can
ever be made for such a loss.

..d

I agree with you David. It was an error of judgement, that millions of
us probably make everyday and get away with. Non the less that
particular driver did make the error.

Bronzie said:

But what practically could they do? The police were already aware of the
road conditions, as were the local council gritting depot. If I were in
their position, I can't imagine being able help alleviate the conditions.

I live by a bend on a fast rural road. I keep a large bag of grit in the
garage for my driveway, which is prone to ice. I know what I would have
done.

We have to take responsibility for these situations as a society, not
just leave it all to "the authorities". But like I said, there's the
Somebody Else's Problem phenomenon to overcome.

I'm not blaming them for what happened, of course - just suggesting they
use a bit more initiative in future.

d.

"Bronzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in > I would hope
that if any good could come of such a terrible tragedy, this

Quoted message said:

incident will remind all drivers how vulnerable cyclists are while they
are out on the roads pursuing their sport, and to treat them with the due
care and respect they deserve.

Ta
Richard

Yes, agree entirely.

Problem is, while many of us on here have considered all the angles and
possibilities here, some of us at great length.

In truth the nation, the public woke up this Monday morning having largely
forgotten the event.
For example it only made page 14 of Mondays Independent newspaper.

The only possible way we will obtain our due respect is from public
education and legal protection - along the existing Dutch and Danish
example. Sadly unlikely in our jealous, selfish society.

John Clayton

in message <[email hidden]>, David

Martin (') said:

I agree. Maybe that will come out in the enquiry rather than having a
trial.

One problem with an enquiry - which we must be ready for and respond to -
is that people like BHIT and the motoring lobby will be there in force,
saying that the roads are too dangerous for cyclists and we should all
be banned.

I suppose this may be when I should finally get round to joining the
CTC...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Error 1109: There is no message for this error

"B.G. Finlay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A cyclist who survived a car crash in north Wales in which four members
of a cycling club died has said it is wrong to blame anyone for what
happened.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4601294.stm

Blair

I can't say I agree with him the driver is 100% to blame.
It was his car, he was driving it and he lost control
of it at high speed. There was no mechanical failure so the
blame squarely on his shoulders.
OK so he hit a patch of ice, what else did he expect to find
on the roads on a cold winters morning? Strawberry jam?

The fact that this cyclist also has a very poor expectation
of driving standards has no bearing on the mattter in my
opinion.

"davek" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Phil Cook said:

Given that there was an accident an hour before at the same place
perhaps some blame is to be laid with the police. It is all well and
good asking for the local authority to re-grit the road but why didn't
they put up one of their SLOW signs in the meantime?

I also wonder about the people living nearby who commented to the press
about all the cars they heard skidding about on that section of road for
some time before the incident happened.

You see this is the problem, the *majority* of road users drive like
idiots, but thats OK "because everybody else does it" this is stupid
way most people think.

Quoted message said:

Did it not occur to any of them
that there might be a serious accident sooner or later, or was it just
Somebody Else's Problem?

d.

"Bronzie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also wonder about the people living nearby who commented to the press
about all the cars they heard skidding about on that section of road for
some time before the incident happened. Did it not occur to any of them
that there might be a serious accident sooner or later, or was it just
Somebody Else's Problem?

d.

But what practically could they do? The police were already aware of the
road conditions, as were the local council gritting depot. If I were in
their position, I can't imagine being able help alleviate the conditions.

I agree that a "POLICE SLOW" sign being left on the approach to the bend
would have been the most helpful thing until the gritting lorry could
return - can't imagine why this was not done unless the police car

attending

Quoted message said:

the first incident didn't have one on board.

They could have closed the road.
A big "Road closed due to idiots" sign.

Quoted message said:

Richard said:

Mark Tranchant wrote:

Quoted message said:

I *have* lost control on ice, driving a car. However, as I knew there
might be ice on the road, I drove at an appropriate speed to minimise
the risk to anyone else if I lost control. I did lose control, and
slide very *slowly* and gracefully into the verge and no harm was done.
Had there been a pedestrian or cyclist there, I doubt they would have
died. It was still entirely my fault, though.

How right you are. One cannot blame it on the ice. At my age, I was
brought up to learn how to drive on ice. There were no gritters then.
Like you, I have had minor collisions on ice, but they were all
recoverable. You just drove according to the conditions.

Drivers expect roads to be gritted as a matter of course these days and
have little experience of icy conditions.

Emperor's New Widescreen said:

I can't say I agree with him the driver is 100% to blame.
It was his car, he was driving it and he lost control
of it at high speed.

Sorry, I migjht be missing something, but where does it say anywhere
vin the BBClink you appear to be relying on that the car driver was
driving at high speed or even speed unsuitable for the road conditions

Quoted message said:

There was no mechanical failure so the
blame squarely on his shoulders.

Got it now car driver = bad, cyclist = good. Never been out on a
frosty pavemetn and slipped as a pedestrian, even when you are aware
of the conditions.

Quoted message said:

OK so he hit a patch of ice, what else did he expect to find
on the roads on a cold winters morning? Strawberry jam?

I don't know I'm not that driver but more to the point neither are you
(unless there is something you arent telling us) For all yuo or I
know this person may have been taking extra caution but wa still
caught out.

Quoted message said:

The fact that this cyclist also has a very poor expectation
of driving standards has no bearing on the mattter in my
opinion.

Were you there, I'd be inclined to have more belief in the opinion of
an eye witness than someone who is just reading a press report.

Nigel

PS Emporer NW at least I'm I'm not afraid to reveal me email address
replace SPAMHATER with n and t*sc*li with totalise