No need for farm animals.

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

You'd have mass malnutrition and at least some starvation.

-Rubystars

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

yes, we could feed people on the sad individuals who insist on massive cross posting

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

Try living in a Northern climate without farm animals or meat. Fact: Eskimos who cannot procure
themselves with meat starve to death. Cour de bois (sp?) ( French fur traders) starved to death in
Canada's wilderness despite the fact that they ate rabbits. The rabbits did not provide enougn fat
to allow the traders to fight the cold. Siberian dwellers on a recent Discovery channel show dealing
with extreme climates laughed in the face of the host when he asked them if they would become
vegans. They pointed out that veganism wouldn't be too healthy if it killed them from failure to
provide fat.

Quoted message said:

From: Jonathan Ball [email hidden] Newsgroups: alt.philosophy, talk.philosophy.misc,
talk.politics.animals, misc.rural, uk.business.agriculture, alt.food.vegan

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

Have you had your flu shot?

Did you know it was made from an egg?

Properly cooked, beef tastes just like tofu.

😉

caveat lector

Halcitron misc.survivalism Check your six and know when to duck. NRA Member since 2002 The Law of
the Land, is the weapon in your hand.

Smith & Wesson starts where the Bill of Rights stop.

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

They could figure it out. The point is, farm animals aren't necessary to feed people.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 02:00:44 GMT, "Rubystars" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

You'd have mass malnutrition and at least some starvation.

-Rubystars

HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER

The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989

The Hunger Argument

Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million.

Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake
of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million

Human beings in America: 243 million

Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion

Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20

Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80

Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95

Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99

How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds

Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20.OOO

Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165

Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56

Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16

The Environmental Argument

Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect

Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels.

Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more

Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75

Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85

Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million

Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama:
200 million pounds

Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less
than eaten by average U.S. housecat.

Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55 sq.ft.

Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and
other uses: 1.000 per year

The Cancer Argument

Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a
week: 4 times

For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times

Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than
once a week: 3 times

Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at
all: 3.6 times

The Natural Resources Argument

Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock portion.

Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer.

Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25

Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500

Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35
dollars a pound

Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: 89 dollars

Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13

Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260

Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million

Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5

Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8

Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33

The Cholesterol Argument

Number of U.S. medical schools: 125

Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30

Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours

Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack

How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds

Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc.

Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc.

Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: normal

Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is ?normal?:
over 50 perc.

The Antibiotic Argument

Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55

Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1960: 13

Percentage resistant in 1988: 91

Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban

Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock:
full and complete support

The Pesticide Argument

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy products: 23

Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55

Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non meat-eating: 35 times higher

What USDA tells us: meat is inspected

Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin chemicals including dioxin and
DDT: less than 0.00004

The Ethical Argument

Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000

Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker

Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
U.S:slaughterhouse worker

Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before slaughter.: 1 cent

Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive

The Survival Argument

Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner) Food choices of Dave
Scott: Vegetarian

Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex

Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.

Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
-------------------------------
Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting

'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.' --William Shakespeare "Twelfth
Night," Act I, Scene 3

www.krishna.com www.iskcon.org

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

If Mindspring / Earthlink don't give a [censored] what you write, then doubt very much if they mind
what DH does.

Though [censored] ~~jonnie~~ LOL.

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

It's easy to tell your posts from theirs.

-Rubystars

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

They could figure it out. The point is, farm animals aren't necessary to feed people.

At the population we have now, I think they are.

If there was a smaller population broken up into villages, etc. then sure, we wouldn't need farm
animals, but we do right now.

-Rubystars

"Jahnu" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

You'd have mass malnutrition and at least some starvation.

-Rubystars

HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER

===============
Your 'argument' is lost from the beginning, loser...

Quoted message said:

The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989

The Hunger Argument

Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million.

Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their
intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million

==================
Nope. There is already more than enough food produced to feed the world. that there are tin-horn
dictators that want to keep their people starving doesn't mean that even more food will alleviate
their problems.

snip of rest of strawmen...

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jahnu said:

Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million.

Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their
intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million

The world needs more people to die of starvation, that is why I went to the Adkins diet to
eat more meat

Quoted message said:

How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds

Not fast enough, the world is still overpopulated. Famine, war or pestilence will solve the problem,
which would you prefer? The laws of nature are not subject to repeal.

Quoted message said:

Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels.

Wrong. Primary cause is water vapor from oceans, CO2 from volcanos is 2nd.

--
free men own guns - slaves don't www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/

Jonathan Ball said:

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

They could figure it out. The point is, farm animals aren't necessary to feed people.

Necessary and desireable are two different things. Your right, more food value would be available if
we took our field crops and placed them directly on our tables, rather than converting grains into
meat. But I, for one, am not willing to give up my steaks (or chops, or ham, etc...)

--
For good laugh at computer security, go to vseasy.comSecurity Humor.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million.

Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their
intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million

*** A total lie. There is not shortage of food for every person in the world yet people starve. If
people are starving now with the huge food surpluses they would continue to starve with even larger
food surpluses.

Quoted message said:

Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75

Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85

*** Another lie. Without livestock topsoils losses would be even worse than they are now. You should
be careful posting things like this. There are well meaning but uninformed and ignorant people who
will read it and think that it's true.

Kala Thompson Farmer Richland Center, Wi USA

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- newsfeeds.comnewsfeeds.comOpen ↗ - The #1
Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Zakhar said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

Quoted message said:

If Mindspring / Earthlink don't give a [censored] what you write, then doubt very much if they mind what
DH does.

They do care about forgeries and misuse of domain names.

"Jahnu" <[email hidden]> wrote in message <snip>

Look Jahnu, I'm not saying there wouldn't be more *food* but forcing people to go on a vegan diet
who don't know how to do so would cause malnutrition and at least some deaths from starvation.

-Rubystars

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

Quoted message said:

It's easy to tell your posts from theirs.

I did make, and to post them as separate posts, under my name. It is irrelevant that I made the
comments in

is prohibited by Mindspring's terms-of-use agreement.

*I* know they're forgeries because they began new threads, which I almost never do, and because I
looked at the message headers. In both cases, they came from

giveaway that I won't reveal, but which is conclusive evidence to the abuse team at Mindspring.

warning from Mindspring to stop doing it. If he does it after his warning, his account will be
terminated.

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do
so properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

They could figure it out. The point is, farm animals aren't necessary to feed people.

At the population we have now, I think they are.

If there was a smaller population broken up into villages, etc. then sure, we wouldn't need farm
animals, but we do right now.

-Rubystars

It's just customary. Pre WWII folks in the US ate less than half as much meat per capita. A
political candidate ran on the platform of 'a chicken in every pot'. Even meat on sundays was a
luxury for many (bacon possibly excepted).

Now we have an obesity-diabetes problem that's becoming epidemic. There's an indian tribe split by
the mexican border. Those on the US side are nearly 100% obese and diabetic. Those on the mexican
side kept their traditional diet and don't even have those problems.

There's also the problem with the stink and pollution of factory farming and the increased
likelyhood (near certainty) of epidemic e coli and salmonella infections. I don't mention the
morality of killing animals. Animals kill animals even if we don't. All life feeds on other life.
Those poor birds, mice, snakes and bugs in the fields are eating one another. But if I had to kill
animals to eat myself, I would only do it in times of direst emergency.

It takes about nine pounds of feed to make a pound of beef, not counting quite a bit of water both
for cows and feed. (You have to feed a cow for years. That feed is gone away.) Purely grass fed beef
would be economical, but feeding them is wasteful. Chickens, turkeys and fish have a 2-3 pound feed
to one pound of meat ratio. Eggs are even more efficient. (Unfortunately, livestock is chock full of
added hormones and antibiotics. That can't be good in the long run.)

Most of the US grain goes into feed, with excesses exported to feed livestock in other countries. If
we ate plants directly we'd have a huge surplus (which would be a bit of an economic problem since
grain is already grown at a loss, requiring subsidies).

Most other countries don't eat as much meat as we do. Devout hindus and buddhists eat no meat. Our
diet is too cheap and calorie rich for our own good. A mosty vegetarian diet can be nutritionally
balanced and quite delicious. It's just not in our western culture these days to even think about
it. I love meat - fatty meat - myself, and eat it often. But cuban rice and beans is delicious.
South Indian cooking is outstanding. Chinese vegetable stews (sometimes flavored with a bit of meat)
are my specialty. And we often have meat-free pasta meals around here. Meat is like candy. You can
get too much for your own good.

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Rubystars said:

"Jonathan Ball" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>OF COURSE "this country" could be fed without raising any farm animals.

That would force a lot of people to go on vegan diets though and most wouldn't know how to do so
properly, even some who do know how to do the right things have to stop.

They could figure it out. The point is, farm animals aren't necessary to feed people.

At the population we have now, I think they are.

No, absolutely not. Farm animals consume more calories than they yield in food value. More
agriculture is devoted to feeding animals than to feeding humans.

Remember: this isn't the point. People want meat, and there's nothing wrong with expending resources
to produce it. But if the goal is the most calories from the smallest possible input of resources,
meat is absolutely unnecessary.

Quoted message said:

If there was a smaller population broken up into villages, etc. then sure, we wouldn't need farm
animals, but we do right now.

Population density doesn't have a thing to do with it.