Not Recommending Frame Builders

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Bob Downie

('BobMail@downie-geo#n0spam#.co.uk') said:

Quoted message said:

Don't let nostalgia fool you. Most Raleighs weren't even good compared
to other contemporary bikes. I bought a Raleigh Special Products frame
because I couldn't afford a Alan Dent frame, not because I thought it
would be anything like as good as an Alan Dent frame.

Err, hold on a minute. I am a very happy owner of a Raleigh Royale
purchased from new in 1989. It has been exceptionally reliable and the
frame has been a pleasure to ride.

I too have a Royale in the household (my partner's, previously my
sister's, bought new at my recommendation 21 years ago). It's a nice
bike. But when we're comparing it to the Roberts and the Argos and
Hewitts of this world, it's not in the same class - and nor was it, when
new, in the same class as the good artisan bikes of the day. And the
Royale was about the best thing Raleigh then produced. 95% of their
production - or more - was decidedly inferior.

I'm not saying everything Raleigh ever produced was rubbish. As I say
I've had four myself, and still ride one. What I was taking issue with
was the absurd claim that they'd set a standard for the artisans to
follow.

Well,since the Raleigh company pre-dates all these venerable bike
makers then its not unreasonable to assume that they would have
aspired to meet,and exceed,the Raleigh standard when they started.

And since the quality of Raleigh bikes may have declined in the 1980's
it can not negate the quality of earlier products.

And anyway,if them bikes are so good, why hasn't anyone won a TdF on
them ?

"How d'ya like them apples !"

On 22 Sep 2005 05:50:21 -0700, "The Luggage" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The Nottingham Duck wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

You know of one now...
I had 3 Raleigh road bike frames crack or break in 5 years in the 90's,
and a front fork collapse under me as well. I now own a Giant.
The Luggage

Dare I suggest that your weight may be an issue here ?

I've been riding them for 27 years(onwed 15 in all),and the only
faults were with freewheels and brake-levers (not Raleigh products).

Unless you ride the Belgian pave every week I can't see how you could
possibly abuse your bikes in that way.

My girlfriend has 'totalled' 2 Saabs.Does that make them [censored] cars ?

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, The Nottingham

Duck (') said:

Ian Blake said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts
do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and
Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Quoted message said:

Whilst Raleigh were/are by no means a small framemaker one should
acknowledge that they are responsible for setting the standard which
British small framemakers maintain.

Whoops! No sir. I've had a number of Raleigh frames over the years,
including one custom made for me by Special Products Division. Most
(including the fifteen year old Record Sprint I still have) have been
pretty cruddy.

In what ways were they defective ?

Quoted message said:

Even the best of the Raleigh frames were never in the
same class as the good artisan builders; their advantage was that they
were cheaper and I could afford them.

And I suppose you'd have got that pro-contract if it wasn't for that
pesky Raleigh !

Quoted message said:

Raleigh used to be a maker of fairly honest, reasonable quality, mass
market bikes. Special Products Division were better than that.

So you admit that a standard existed at one point which other
bike-makers had to meet or exceed in order to sell bikes.

Quoted message said:

But
Raleigh were never makers of really good bikes

More TdF's were won on them than any other British maker.

Quoted message said:

and nowadays they're
merely vendors of really bad ones.

Quoted message said:

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

...and the poor quality brazing, and the bad alignment, and the poor
finish, and the brakes which never worked, and...

If they were that bad then you wouldn't have been able to ride
them,yet you were still able to.So they couldn't have been so rubbish
after all.

Quoted message said:

Don't let nostalgia fool you. Most Raleighs weren't even good compared to
other contemporary bikes. I bought a Raleigh Special Products frame
because I couldn't afford a Alan Dent frame, not because I thought it
would be anything like as good as an Alan Dent frame.

Pah, Raleigh-bashing seems to be a regular pastime in this group.

Its basicly just cycle snobbery.Raleigh bikes are what the plebs
ride,not us serious cyclists.

Its like the whole h*lmet debate - 'We don't think we should have to
wear one,therefore no one should.'

"The Nottingham Duck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Its basicly just cycle snobbery.Raleigh bikes are what the plebs
ride,not us serious cyclists.

Well that's me out then.... says she who has rather nice Raleigh Pioneer
Trail in garage. Was relatively expensive when new, and has lasted
remarkably well thanks to my personal bike mechanic. Lovely paint jobbie on
it too. Mind you it isn't as good as say my Bianchis, and having seen new
Raleighs out and about, I'd say that yes, Raleigh quality is not what it
used to be.

Cheers, helen s

wafflycat said:

"The Nottingham Duck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Its basicly just cycle snobbery.Raleigh bikes are what the plebs
ride,not us serious cyclists.

Well that's me out then.... says she who has rather nice Raleigh Pioneer
Trail in garage. Was relatively expensive when new, and has lasted
remarkably well thanks to my personal bike mechanic. Lovely paint jobbie on
it too. Mind you it isn't as good as say my Bianchis, and having seen new
Raleighs out and about, I'd say that yes, Raleigh quality is not what it
used to be.

And I have bought two Raleighs new. Excellent value for money and still
going strong. They were the Kobo 16 and the Max 16 (or somesuch) for
the kids. The Kobo has been passed on to my neice.

I also have a Raleigh Highlander, or what is left of it, doing great
service as part of the trailer.

...d

Quoted message said:

Its like the whole h*lmet debate - 'We don't think we should have to
wear one,therefore no one should.'

It's:
"We don't think we should be _forced_ to wear one, therefore don't force
us".

Don't forget that some of the most voval people in the anti-compulsion
wossnames often wear helmets themselves.

(written for the benefit of lurkers, rather than N.D., who was just
trolling again)

Quoted message said:

And anyway,if them bikes are so good, why hasn't anyone won a TdF on
them ?

A spurious claim. The same reason you do not see TV adverts for them.
They are small scale specialist manufacturers. Adverstising on a
Europewide event does not make sense.

Until Lance won Shimano had never supplied gears to the winning rider.
This does not imply Durace was a poor gear system before that.

In the period of TI Raleigh (Some people think of it as the best ever
pro team) the big riders would often ride a frame from their favoured
frame builder painted to look like a team bike.

Before the mountain bike revolution the American bicycle industry was
a mess. I believe Argos supplied the American Olympic team.

Quoted message said:

it too. Mind you it isn't as good as say my Bianchis, and having seen new
Raleighs out and about, I'd say that yes, Raleigh quality is not what it
used to be.

Cheers, helen s

Thats what this section of this thread is about.

Bianchi used to aspire to be Raleigh. They occupy the same position
in the Italian bike industry as Raleigh used to in ours. Every thing
from gas pipe specials to lust after race bikes.

It is a shame Raleigh did not remain a company to look up to.

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Its like the whole h*lmet debate - 'We don't think we should have to
wear one,therefore no one should.'

It's:
"We don't think we should be _forced_ to wear one, therefore don't force
us".

Don't forget that some of the most voval people in the anti-compulsion
wossnames often wear helmets themselves.

Yes, damn irritating that - they go around advertising that cycling is
dangerous, whilst pronouncing otherwise :-(

There is a word that comes to mind. <ducks>

John B

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark

Thompson (') said:

(written for the benefit of lurkers, rather than N.D., who was just
trolling again)

If you don't like trolls, don't feed trolls. I wouldn't even know he was
still here if you didn't follow up to him.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Wannabe a Web designer?
<URL:http://userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/97dec/19971206.html>

The Nottingham Duck said:

On 22 Sep 2005 05:50:21 -0700, "The Luggage" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The Nottingham Duck wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I don't know of any riders who've had complaints with Raleigh frames.
The only complaint seems to be their weight.

You know of one now...
I had 3 Raleigh road bike frames crack or break in 5 years in the 90's,
and a front fork collapse under me as well. I now own a Giant.

Dare I suggest that your weight may be an issue here ?

I was under 9 1/2 stone at the time!

Quoted message said:

I've been riding them for 27 years(onwed 15 in all),and the only
faults were with freewheels and brake-levers (not Raleigh products).

The particular faults were all design or manufacture related:
1. broken plate in rear triangle where wheel attaches - subsequent
frames had this plate twice as thick, so they knew this was a problem
2. Front forks broke at crown. Reason unidentified. Raleigh refused to
authorise a replacement frame. Orignal frame replaced 3 months later
due to crack propagation.
3. Large crack in diagonal tube, near to gear lever fitting, probably
due to tube damage when drilling.

Quoted message said:

Unless you ride the Belgian pave every week I can't see how you could
possibly abuse your bikes in that way.

I did about 80 miles a week, pushing hard, on the badly maintained
roads n Cambridge

Quoted message said:

My girlfriend has 'totalled' 2 Saabs.Does that make them [censored] cars ?

No. See above

The Luggage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(written for the benefit of lurkers, rather than N.D., who was just
trolling again)

If you don't like trolls, don't feed trolls. I wouldn't even know he was
still here if you didn't follow up to him.

Great, and now everyone who has both me and ND in their killfile knows
we're here.

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

Its like the whole h*lmet debate - 'We don't think we should have to
wear one,therefore no one should.'

It's:
"We don't think we should be _forced_ to wear one, therefore don't force
us".
Don't forget that some of the most voval people in the anti-compulsion
wossnames often wear helmets themselves

Quoted message said:

(written for the benefit of lurkers, rather than N.D., who was just
trolling again)

Ha Ha, its old 'capa'* Thompson throwing the 't' word about,except
this time he's managed to string a few sentences together which almost
make sense.
Well done,my boy.My time here isn't being wasted !

* Can't Argue,Post Abuse

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark

Thompson (') said:

(written for the benefit of lurkers, rather than N.D., who was just
trolling again)

If you don't like trolls, don't feed trolls. I wouldn't even know he was
still here if you didn't follow up to him.

Then why bother posting this.
Is that what motivates you tr*lls ,seeing your names 'up in lights' ?

Your like the tools who proclaim that they're about to killfile you
after losing an argument.
Why broadcast it ? Just do it and try to rebuild your shattered lives.

By the way,could you point out the relevance of the above lines to the
o.p. ?

No , thought you couldn't. TR*LL !!!

I submit that on or about Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:16:04 +0100, the person
known to the court as The Nottingham Duck
<[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle)
to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

if them bikes are so good, why hasn't anyone won a TdF on
them ?

The same could be said of recumbents, mountain bikes, BMXs, monocoque
bikes, compact frames and certain Cannondale road bikes.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

I submit that on or about Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:50:05 +0100, the person
known to the court as The Nottingham Duck
<[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle)
to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Its like the whole h*lmet debate - 'We don't think we should have to
wear one,therefore no one should.'

I think you will find that it is the pro-helmet lobby, not the
sceptics, who seek to force their decision on others, including by
advocating legislation.

Do feel free to cite any people on this newsgroup who have advocated a
law banning helmet use.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

In message <[email hidden]>, The
Luggage <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

The Nottingham Duck wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dare I suggest that your weight may be an issue here ?

I was under 9 1/2 stone at the time!

Too light - the bike was obviously having trouble maintaining contact
with the road. It's a wonder it didn't float away.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

In message <[email hidden]>, JohnB <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Ian Blake said:

There is a thread a little earlier advocating the excellent job Roberts do.

I have a couple of Argos bikes I think are great.
My friend has a Dave Yates which he loves.
Another had a Nelson which he said was is best bike.
Numerous people are delighted with their Longstaff tourers and Tricycles.

Is there any small British framemaker making rubbish?

Possibly not.
There are several like those above who make superb machines.

Then there's Roberts ;-)

Who are currently considered to make the best touring frames? I fancy a
new bike and someone at work thought my FW Evans (hand built in 1986)
looked 'very old fashioned'. I want cutting edge.

--
congokid
Good restaurants in London? Number one on Google
http://congokid.com

congokid said:

Who are currently considered to make the best touring frames? I fancy a
new bike and someone at work thought my FW Evans (hand built in 1986)
looked 'very old fashioned'. I want cutting edge.

I'm very content with my Raven Tour.

in message <[email hidden]>, Just zis Guy,

you know? (') said:

I submit that on or about Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:16:04 +0100, the person
known to the court as The Nottingham Duck
<[email hidden]> made a statement
(<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle)
to the following effect:

Quoted message said:

if them bikes are so good, why hasn't anyone won a TdF on
them ?

The same could be said of recumbents, mountain bikes, BMXs, monocoque
bikes, compact frames and certain Cannondale road bikes.

Speaking as a Cannondale owner and self-confessed Cannondale fan, this is
pure marketing [censored]. Yes, you can build up a Cannondale frame into a
complete bike that will tip the scales under the UCI weight limit. But,
guess what? You can build up any of the other good racing frame-makers
frames to come under the UCI weight limit, too. Indeed if you were
sufficiently picky with modern components you could probably build up a
thirty-year-old Raleigh frame to come under the UCI limit.

The Cannondale gimmick was simply to be the first to offer such a build
as a standard catalogue item on sale to the public. This year's
Cannondale frames are not lighter than this year's Looks, for at least
one example.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; This email may contain confidential or otherwise privileged
;; information, though, quite frankly, if you're not the intended
;; recipient and you've got nothing better to do than read other
;; folks' emails then I'm glad to have brightened up your sad little
;; life a tiny bit.