Number unobtainable

[Simon Brooke]

T-Mobile has pulled out of cycle sponsorship, citing doping scandals:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/nov07/nov28news

"We arrived at this decision to separate our brand from further exposure
from doping in sport and cycling specifically."

This is extremely serious for professional cycle racing, as they have been
the single most generous sponsor of the sport for the past decade.
Furthermore, this will cause other sponsors to consider their position.

I suppose it may be a good thing in the long term, if it leads to a real
clean out. Unfortunately, a real clean out is going to hit some people I
respect (e.g. Riis), whom I believe are no longer part of the problem. But
the current network of administrators, sports physicians and directeurs
sportif probably does need to be cleared away en masse, because the sport
is currently broken.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

<p>Schroedinger's cat is <blink><strong>NOT</strong></blink> dead.</p>

 

[[email protected]]

In message <[email protected]>
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

> a real clean out

Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.

 

[Tony Raven]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> But
> the current network of administrators, sports physicians and directeurs
> sportif probably does need to be cleared away en masse, because the sport
> is currently broken.
>

Not forgetting the mafia of supervisory bodies and testing laboratories
that are just as much a part of the problem and need to get their acts
cleaned up too.

--
Tony

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has
taken place"
George Bernard Shaw

 

[tam]

> Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
> quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.
>
Do nt think the upwrong manufacturers are going to allow that
enlightened view to prevail.
Tam

 

[Rob Morley]

In article <[email protected]>, tam
[email protected] says...
>
> > Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
> > quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.
> >
> Do nt think the upwrong manufacturers are going to allow that
> enlightened view to prevail.
>
Why not? They don't care what sort of bikes they sell as long as they
sell bikes.

 

[Dave Larrington]

In news:[email protected],
[email protected]m <[email protected]> tweaked the
Babbage-Engine to tell us:
> In message <[email protected]>
> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> a real clean out
>
> Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
> quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.

Oink and, moreover, flap...

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
God was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had
to eat Him.

 

[tam]

">>
>> Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
>> quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.
>
> Oink and, moreover, flap...
>
As an innocent of upwrong politics- the machaevalian hostility of upwrong
manufacturers
towards all things recumbent mystyfies me.
I suppose the economic theories of conjecture explain it all.
Or perhaps its the fact that recumbents are faster.
Imagine a car industry sticking to the push rod engine----ooops---the
British car industry.
Tam

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 29, 12:33 pm, "tam" <[email protected]> wrote:
> ">>>> Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
> >> quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.
>
> > Oink and, moreover, flap...
>
> As an innocent of upwrong politics- the machaevalian hostility of upwrong
> manufacturers
> towards all things recumbent mystyfies me.
> I suppose the economic theories of conjecture explain it all.
> Or perhaps its the fact that recumbents are faster.
> Imagine a car industry sticking to the push rod engine----ooops---the
> British car industry.
> Tam

I don't think you can blame the manufacturers. If there was a market
for mass-produced £300 bents they'd be making them. It's got more to
do with the governing bodies, who after all are the ones who banned
bents from their races, and condemed them to the niche market that
they are.

Dave

 

[Peter Clinch]

tam wrote:

> As an innocent of upwrong politics- the machaevalian hostility of upwrong
> manufacturers towards all things recumbent mystyfies me.

I don't sense any such thing. if there's "Machiavellian hostility" it's
from the UCI, not the manufacturers.

> I suppose the economic theories of conjecture explain it all.

It's pretty easy to see there isn't a mass market for them: people
seeing one being pedalled and steered ask how I manage to pedal it and
steer it, it's an Unknown Country and there is deep suspicion of such
things. Until there is a mass market there will be no economies of
scale, until there are economies of scale 'bents will cost more, and
people won't pay more for an unknown rather than pay less for something
they know from personal experience will do the job they want done.
Cannondale and Trek have both built recumbents, Giant make a
semi-recumbent, none of them have done too well in the mass market, and
ultimately they're all in business to do business.

> Or perhaps its the fact that recumbents are faster.

For some values of "faster"... Yes, a Varna Diabolo will pooh on any
upright (with the same power input, of course) from a great height if
the task in hand is 200m along a flat straight road from a flying start
or an hour round a velodrome, and a fully-faired Windcheetah holds the
LEJOG record, but OTOH I know for a fact that an HPVel Streetmachine up
Balmerino Hill is *not* quicker than an EBC Country with the same rider,
and to suggest that recumbents in a general sense are faster than
uprights in a general sense is tosh.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[tam]

> and to suggest that recumbents in a general sense are faster than
> uprights in a general sense is tosh.

8 years ago I was 11/2 stone overweight-I am now a bit more than that.
The cycle path 17th June in Berlin is about 3 miles long-flat-tarmac
covered.
In 5 weeks cycling on that street no one beat me end to end against my 20
kilo recumbent trike.
It does have 63 ratio s to chose from tho---.
Did nt race a two wheeled recumbent.

I remember reading in the BHPV newsletter of at least two long races in
Europe where the recumbents
beat the upwrongs by a pretty massive margin and were subsequently relegated
to their own category for "safety" reasons.
Tam

 

[Clive George]

"tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>> and to suggest that recumbents in a general sense are faster than
>> uprights in a general sense is tosh.
>
> 8 years ago I was 11/2 stone overweight-I am now a bit more than that.
> The cycle path 17th June in Berlin is about 3 miles long-flat-tarmac
> covered.
> In 5 weeks cycling on that street no one beat me end to end against my 20
> kilo recumbent trike.

Could that be as per previous discussion, the fast riders are using the
roads instead?

cheers,
clive

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, tam
('[email protected]') wrote:

>
> ">>
>>> Might include introduction of classes, allowing say recumbents and
>>> quads and trike to compete with traditional diamond bikes.
>>
>> Oink and, moreover, flap...
>>
> As an innocent of upwrong politics- the machaevalian hostility of upwrong
> manufacturers
> towards all things recumbent mystyfies me.

I don't think it's the upwrong manufacturers. They just want to sell bikes
and if the market shifted to demanding different shaped bikes they'd
supply that demand.

The problem is the UCI.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

-- mens vacua in medio vacuo --

 

[Don Whybrow]

tam wrote:
>
> 8 years ago I was 11/2 stone overweight-I am now a bit more than that.
> The cycle path 17th June in Berlin is about 3 miles long-flat-tarmac
> covered.
> In 5 weeks cycling on that street no one beat me end to end against my 20
> kilo recumbent trike.
> It does have 63 ratio s to chose from tho---.
> Did nt race a two wheeled recumbent.

OK so you are fast on the flat. How well do you think you would do
against me on my 8kg fixie going up Liberton Brae? Oh, I am about 4
stone overweight.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"This is all very interesting, and I daresay you already see me
frothing at the mouth in a fit; but no, I am not; I am just
winking happy thoughts into a little tiddle cup." (Nabokov,
Lolita)

 

[tam]

"Don Whybrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> tam wrote:
>>
>> 8 years ago I was 11/2 stone overweight-I am now a bit more than that.
>> The cycle path 17th June in Berlin is about 3 miles long-flat-tarmac
>> covered.
>> In 5 weeks cycling on that street no one beat me end to end against my 20
>> kilo recumbent trike.
>> It does have 63 ratio s to chose from tho---.
>> Did nt race a two wheeled recumbent.
>
> OK so you are fast on the flat. How well do you think you would do against
> me on my 8kg fixie going up Liberton Brae? Oh, I am about 4 stone
> overweight.
>
I think you will find if you read the BHPV archives that this topic of which
is the fasted over distance has been well and truly covered and the
recumbent is the overall winner every time.
To the unintiated this problem of winching up hill seems
insurmountable-but-as you know if you climb-eventually you
must descend.
Far cleverer punters than me have worked this out long ago-about 10 years I
think.
Tam

 

[Don Whybrow]

tam wrote:
> "Don Whybrow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> tam wrote:
>>> 8 years ago I was 11/2 stone overweight-I am now a bit more than that.
>>> The cycle path 17th June in Berlin is about 3 miles long-flat-tarmac
>>> covered.
>>> In 5 weeks cycling on that street no one beat me end to end against my 20
>>> kilo recumbent trike.
>>> It does have 63 ratio s to chose from tho---.
>>> Did nt race a two wheeled recumbent.
>> OK so you are fast on the flat. How well do you think you would do against
>> me on my 8kg fixie going up Liberton Brae? Oh, I am about 4 stone
>> overweight.
>>
> I think you will find if you read the BHPV archives that this topic of which
> is the fasted over distance has been well and truly covered and the
> recumbent is the overall winner every time.

But only on the flat. Put in a bit of scenery and rolling terrain and it
is a different matter. This summer the PBP took place and Mr Larrington
of this parish took part on a 'bent. I seem to recall he commented that
the rolling countryside put him at a distinct disadvantage.

> To the unintiated this problem of winching up hill seems
> insurmountable-but-as you know if you climb-eventually you
> must descend.

That very much depends on the route.

<http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.cycling/browse_thread/thread/5c892f0bcf2aa32d/980595a4f7c84886?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=hill+climb#980595a4f7c84886>

> Far cleverer punters than me have worked this out long ago-about 10 years I
> think.

For a well defined set of conditions.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"Lord, please make me the kind of person my dog thinks I am."

 

[tam]

>>>
>> I think you will find if you read the BHPV archives that this topic of
>> which is the fasted over distance has been well and truly covered and the
>> recumbent is the overall winner every time.
>
> But only on the flat. Put in a bit of scenery and rolling terrain and it
> is a different matter. This summer the PBP took place and Mr Larrington of
> this parish took part on a 'bent. I seem to recall he commented that the
> rolling countryside put him at a distinct disadvantage.
>
>> To the unintiated this problem of winching up hill seems
>> insurmountable-but-as you know if you climb-eventually you
>> must descend.
>
> That very much depends on the route.
>
> <http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.cycling/browse_thread/thread/5c892f0bcf2aa32d/980595a4f7c84886?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=hill+climb#980595a4f7c84886>
>
>> Far cleverer punters than me have worked this out long ago-about 10 years
>> I think.
>
> For a well defined set of conditions.

Depends what you mean.

A bike race of about 20 miles plus not chosen for its topography I seem to
remember.
The recumbents just turned up and raced-and-won.

Hopefully the BHPV members will read this thread and give chapter and verse.

I think it boils down to race organisers wo nt allow upwrongs and recumbents
to compete
in the one race so info is sketchy.

One thing is absolutely not in doubt.
I am pretty unfit-but-tomorrow I can get on my trike-cycle for 31/2 hours
non stop and
not have a numb bum.
This will not apply to the upwrong rider.
However I have given up being an evangalist for recumbent suspended folding
trikes.
Certainly I do nt think my tourer is the best speed machine.
This arguement against the bents speed sounds a bit like the RAF faced with
Whittles
jet--I ttl never work its not a proper engine-where s the propellor.
Tam

 

[Pete Biggs]

tam wrote:
> One thing is absolutely not in doubt.
> I am pretty unfit-but-tomorrow I can get on my trike-cycle for 31/2
> hours non stop and not have a numb bum.
> This will not apply to the upwrong rider.

I'm not super fit and do not have NB after cycling for 3 1/2 hours on my
upright bike.

You should remember that it's not just about fashion and money. Not
everyone has the space, or wants to make the space, to park a bent at home.
And not everyone wants to have to climb hills at lower speed.

~PB

 

[[email protected]]

tam wrote:
> To the unintiated this problem of winching up hill seems
> insurmountable-but-as you know if you climb-eventually you
> must descend.

Even supposing perfect grip and no need ever to touch the brakes,
you never make up on the downhills what you lose on the uphills.
Railway and motorway constructors worked this out a long time ago, hence
the viaduct and the cutting.


-dan

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>tam wrote:
>> To the unintiated this problem of winching up hill seems
>> insurmountable-but-as you know if you climb-eventually you
>> must descend.
>
>Even supposing perfect grip and no need ever to touch the brakes,
>you never make up on the downhills what you lose on the uphills.
>Railway and motorway constructors worked this out a long time ago, hence
>the viaduct and the cutting.

True, but I think you'll find the limited grip of steel wheels on steel
rails has more do to with the railway case.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, [email protected] ('
[email protected]') wrote:

> tam wrote:
>> To the unintiated this problem of winching up hill seems
>> insurmountable-but-as you know if you climb-eventually you
>> must descend.
>
> Even supposing perfect grip and no need ever to touch the brakes,
> you never make up on the downhills what you lose on the uphills.
> Railway and motorway constructors worked this out a long time ago, hence
> the viaduct and the cutting.

But vs another cyclist on the same road on a different kind of bike, you
may. If, for example, you were 10% slower uphill but 50% faster down, you
might well be (depending on climbing and descending speeds of both types,
of course)

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
[ Disclaimer: This is a work displacement exercise. Please feel free ]
[ to reply either on or off group. Expect lengthy replies until the ]
[ deadline has passed. Thank-you for your cooperation. ]