o-ring chain

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

since we seem to be in "product testing" mode, has anyone heard of o-ring chain for bicycles?

they're used for off-road motorcycles with great success in reducing chain wear, so it would be
logical for that to extend to human powered machines. anyone know if that's happened yet, and is
so, do you have a source?

jb

I think O-ring chains, as practiced on motorcycles, wouldn't benefit bicycles for the following
reasons: too expensive for what is returned in the way of minimized chain wear and, more
importantly, much greater friction losses in the chain.

jim beam may have said:

since we seem to be in "product testing" mode, has anyone heard of o-ring chain for bicycles?

they're used for off-road motorcycles with great success in reducing chain wear, so it would be
logical for that to extend to human powered machines. anyone know if that's happened yet, and is
so, do you have a source?

Where would you remove material from existing chain designs to insert a durable and sufficiently
elastic set of O-rings? The side plates are too thin, the roller is too narrow, and the chain must
have more lateral flexibility than could be sealed by any o-ring that would be possible to include.
There's just no place to put a pair (or quartet) of o-rings that would be able to seal the roller
and the pin of a bicycle chain.

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Quoted message said:

Where would you remove material from existing chain designs to insert a durable and sufficiently
elastic set of O-rings? The side plates are too thin, the roller is too narrow, and the chain must
have more lateral flexibility than could be sealed by any o-ring that would be possible to
include. There's just no place to put a pair (or quartet) of o-rings that would be able to seal
the roller and the pin of a bicycle chain.

hmm, interesting points, but i think they are surmountable - it's just a question of scale - the
technology would be the same as motorcycle chain. and regarding friction as mentioned by dave, i
think this would be a small price to pay for a chain that does not self destruct in mud.

i had a couple of rides last winter where both i and my bike were completely caked. the grinding
from the chain in the last few miles was hideous, and it was starting to regularly foul itself
because the rollers were starting to stick. i'm sure there are people out there like myself that
would pay a little extra for reliability.

jb

In article said:

since we seem to be in "product testing" mode, has anyone heard of o-ring chain for bicycles?

they're used for off-road motorcycles with great success in reducing chain wear, so it would be
logical for that to extend to human powered machines. anyone know if that's happened yet, and is
so, do you have a source?

I don't think it'll happen soon. Besides having noticeably greater friction, at least when cold,
they are also significantly wider than standard non-O-ring chains.

Most enduro riders (think century/long road race) use 0-ring chains, moto-cross (criterium) racers
and trials (trials!) riders use non O-ring chains.

Eric

jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where would you remove material from existing chain designs to insert a durable and sufficiently
elastic set of O-rings? The side plates are too thin, the roller is too narrow, and the chain
must have more lateral flexibility than could be sealed by any o-ring that would be possible to
include. There's just no place to put a pair (or quartet) of o-rings that would be able to seal
the roller and the pin of a bicycle chain.

hmm, interesting points, but i think they are surmountable - it's just a question of scale - the
technology would be the same as motorcycle chain. and regarding friction as mentioned by dave, i
think this would be a small price to pay for a chain that does not self destruct in mud.

i had a couple of rides last winter where both i and my bike were completely caked. the grinding
from the chain in the last few miles was hideous, and it was starting to regularly foul itself
because the rollers were starting to stick. i'm sure there are people out there like myself that
would pay a little extra for reliability.

jb

Dear Jim,

I think that Werehatrack's point, however, is that it isn't entirely a question of scale.

Motorcycle chains have a wonderful straight chainline from a single front countershaft sprocket to a
single rear drive sprocket. The idea of a chain mis-aligned to one side is as difficult for a
motorcyclist to conceive as . . . see ludicrously irrelevant quote from the Devil's Dictionary.

Anyway, bicycle chains lash from side to side like alligator tails, criss-crossing between various
front and rear gears. This extra sideways or lateral bending would tend to open things up beyond the
closing ability of motorcycle-style O-rings, letting in all the mud that annoys the off-road bicycle
in the first place.

In any case, the market for such expensively miniaturized chains is likely to be so small that it
would not be the small price that you hope to pay.

Carl Fogel

A mis-aligned chain is as difficult for motorcyclists to conceive as . . .

TIGHTS, n. An habiliment of the stage designed to reinforce the general acclamation of the press
agent with a particular publicity. Public attention was once somewhat diverted from this garment to
Miss Lillian Russell's refusal to wear it, and many were the conjectures as to her motive, the guess
of Miss Pauline Hall showing a high order of ingenuity and sustained reflection. It was Miss Hall's
belief that nature had not endowed Miss Russell with beautiful legs. This theory was impossible of
acceptance by the male understanding, but the conception of a faulty female leg was of so prodigious
originality as to rank among the most brilliant feats of philosophical speculation!

"Eric M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think it'll happen soon. Besides having noticeably greater friction, at least when cold,
they are also significantly wider than standard non-O-ring chains.

Most enduro riders (think century/long road race) use 0-ring chains, moto-cross (criterium) racers
and trials (trials!) riders use non O-ring chains.

Eric

And most road race guys convert from a 530 O-ring chain to a 520 non-O-ring for less friction and
weight. A 520 chain is about 3/4 the width of a 530. Every little bit helps I suppose.

Cheers,

Scott..

26 Nov 2003 01:54:20 GMT jim beam said:

since we seem to be in "product testing" mode, has anyone heard of o-ring chain for bicycles?

I don't think the manufacturers think it's practical for drive chain as small as that used on
bicycles. It's only offered in the larger sizes of drive chain.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave Thompson said:

I think O-ring chains, as practiced on motorcycles, wouldn't benefit bicycles for the following
reasons: too expensive for what is returned in the way of minimized chain wear and, more
importantly, much greater friction losses in the chain.

Well, I would disagree with that. The chain is the highest maintenance item on a bicycle (other than
having to air up tires, that is). I would be nice not having to clean and lube the thing so often.

Since no one has come up with an o-ring sealed chain for a bike, I don't think you can claim that it
has much greater friction losses - especially when compared with a dirty chain.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email hidden]> (Remove the REMOVE_THIS from my email address
to reply.)

Jim Adney may have said:

26 Nov 2003 01:54:20 GMT jim beam said:

since we seem to be in "product testing" mode, has anyone heard of o-ring chain for bicycles?

I don't think the manufacturers think it's practical for drive chain as small as that used on
bicycles. It's only offered in the larger sizes of drive chain.

Correct.

A bike chain's links must accomodate flex. This flexure is only possible to achieve by permitting
the links to have some inherent slop in them that allows the pins to run at an angle. To seal
something with an o-ring, the ring must be under compression against the inner and outer surfaces of
contact. In a bike chain, then, to remain sealed when the pin deflects, the ring would have to be
precompressed by an amount greater than the radial relaxation caused when the deflection is in the
direction of opening the joint, and would have to have sufficient remaining compressibility to allow
the ring to crush on the opposite side at the same time, and would have to do this without
measurably changing the deflection force characteristics of the chain. Realistically, there is no
o-ring material which has any chance whatever of meeting this requirement.

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Quoted message said:

Realistically, there is no o-ring material which has any chance whatever of meeting this
requirement.

not trying to be rude, but that sounds very negative. there are all kinds of bearing seals that
accomodate varying degrees of movement.

maybe "o-ring" is a misleading. let's try "sealed" instead. i can't see that it would be difficult.

jb

jim beam may have said:

Quoted message said:

Realistically, there is no o-ring material which has any
chance whatever of meeting this requirement.

not trying to be rude, but that sounds very negative. there are all kinds of bearing seals that
accomodate varying degrees of movement.

Yes. I've used many of them, and have had to locate substitute seals for items that were obsolete on
a number of occasions; most shaft seals are designed to operate in a situation where the motions do
not include any significant radial component. When there is such motion present, it's generally due
to the shaft being so heavily loaded that it's flexing, and it still amounts to just a small
fraction of the seal's cross-section. The normal running alignment variation in a bike chain is very
large by comparison.

Quoted message said:

maybe "o-ring" is a misleading. let's try "sealed" instead. i can't see that it would be difficult.

O-rings or X-rings (or variations on that theme) are what's used in existing sealed chains, with
good reason. That's what is possible to fit in there...and those chains are *much* wider than a
bike chain.

Look at this:

drivesinc.comrollr preimp2.pdfOpen ↗

Note that the roller in such chains is still not sealed.

Or consider this:

rk-excel.co.jpchain spec 200209.pdfOpen ↗

Note that in each case, the sealed chain is wider than its unsealed counterpart. Since on 8, 9 and
10-speed cassettes, there's just no room for a wider chain, the addition of the sealing components
cannot be accomplished in this manner.

Now look at the space between the plates of a bike chain. Look at the thickness of those plates.
Remember that to add space for the seal between the plates, those plates must become thinner...and
they're already about as thin as it is practical to make them.

Perhaps a V-section ring might be possible to put between the plates with just a small reduction in
plate thickness, but it would have to be incredibly thin and thereby much too fragile, and this
still does nothing about the dirt which gets in under the roller. To add a pair of sealing rings in
that location, you're forced to decrease the contact face area on the roller and side plate flanges
to provide room for the rings there...and the same alignment issues still pertain, with the same set
of problems.

No, this is a dead end. Bike chains are not like motocycle chains, where straight-line runs are the
rule. Bicycle chains have too much side flex, and too little room for anything to be inserted.

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Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Now look at the space between the plates of a bike chain. Look at the thickness of those plates.
Remember that to add space for the seal between the plates, those plates must become thinner...and
they're already about as thin as it is practical to make them.

If you use an internal hub geared system instead of derailleur gears, the chain can be wider.

Mike DeMicco may have said:

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Now look at the space between the plates of a bike chain. Look at the thickness of those plates.
Remember that to add space for the seal between the plates, those plates must become
thinner...and they're already about as thin as it is practical to make them.

If you use an internal hub geared system instead of derailleur gears, the chain can be wider.

Limit with current tech: 14 speeds. (Which, admittedly, is far more than the casual rider
really needs.)

Drawbacks: heavy and expensive.

However, in my personal opinion, the geared hubs look very attractive in many respects. If a sealed
chain were available to use with them, this would be a good low-maintenance solution.

It should be remembered, however, that even sealed chains still require some external lube, and
periodic cleaning. A toothed belt drive and a geared hub would eliminate that mess.

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Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

If you use an internal hub geared system instead of derailleur gears, the chain can be wider.

Limit with current tech: 14 speeds. (Which, admittedly, is far more than the casual rider
really needs.)

No, it's 28 speeds using the Schlumpf planetary geared crankset (ignoring the duplication which may
be present).

Your gripes about cost and weight apply to this setup of course. But the clean appearance of the
no-derailer system is attractive. The traditional beef about efficiency is certainly arguable as it
would be easier to implement a straight run of O-ring chain.

Or a well sealed chainguard, but there goes the clean appearance bit.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Ted Bennett may have said:

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

If you use an internal hub geared system instead of derailleur gears, the chain can be wider.

Limit with current tech: 14 speeds. (Which, admittedly, is far more than the casual rider really
needs.)

No, it's 28 speeds using the Schlumpf planetary geared crankset (ignoring the duplication which may
be present).

There might be some duplications or near-same ratios, but this is true for derailleur setups too, so
28 would be a valid statement.

Quoted message said:

Your gripes about cost and weight apply to this setup of course.

Yet another candidate for the Understatement of the Week, at least as far as cost. The weight factor
on the Schlumpf, as I understand it, isn't as serious as for the 14-speed hub, though.

Quoted message said:

But the clean appearance of the no-derailer system is attractive.

Very true! So is the added chain and sprocket durability from the wider single-speed chain.

Quoted message said:

The traditional beef about efficiency is certainly arguable as it would be easier to implement a
straight run of O-ring chain.

There are always trade-offs. I have no doubt that derailleurs are more popular than gearhubs for the
overall market because they're much cheaper per gear provided, but they dominate the racing market
because they're more efficient and lighter. If the gearhubs were the same weight and had the same
drive losses as derailleurs, I have no doubt that they would be the system of choice for
competition.

Quoted message said:

Or a well sealed chainguard, but there goes the clean appearance bit.

Actually, some people might like the sealed-chainguard look right now. It's the retro thing. Times
will change yet again, and it's hard to say what the next trend will be. (It's been fun seeing the
late-60s miniskirts back in action, though.)

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