Ok, dumb question before the 7/1 cutoff.

David Ferguson said:

WTF is up with my heart rate? At first I just thought I was a big
wussy and couldn't take the pain to find a real maximum. All I could
come up with was 168. That was pounding a trainer and seemed way too
low.

Out doing hills I seem to be able to "try harder" but even at the
point of dying, granny gearing and about to fall over on a 12% grade,
at the end of a 30 mile ride....... still not over 170.

Out of shape and lazy my resting heart rate is in the low 50's. In
some kind of shape it's high 40's or even low 40's upon waking.

So is my max just that low or am I missing something? At first I
didn't care but I'm trying to do the whole % of max thing to improve
my average speed so I kinda need to know.

Thanks for any help,

David Fredguson

Hopefully Andy is still wasting his time here and can provide some
info. Other than that, there are some really good coaches here that
might have an idea.
Bill C

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WTF is up with my heart rate? At first I just thought I was a big
wussy and couldn't take the pain to find a real maximum. All I could
come up with was 168. That was pounding a trainer and seemed way too
low.

Out doing hills I seem to be able to "try harder" but even at the
point of dying, granny gearing and about to fall over on a 12% grade,
at the end of a 30 mile ride....... still not over 170.

Out of shape and lazy my resting heart rate is in the low 50's. In
some kind of shape it's high 40's or even low 40's upon waking.

So is my max just that low or am I missing something? At first I
didn't care but I'm trying to do the whole % of max thing to improve
my average speed so I kinda need to know.

Thanks for any help,

David Fredguson

When you're rested, go out and do a flat or flatish, 10 mile time trial as
hard as you can without looking at your HRM. Take the average HR for that
ride and divide by 1.02. That will give you a fairly good approximation of
your LTHR.

David Ferguson said:

WTF is up with my heart rate? At first I just thought I was a big
wussy and couldn't take the pain to find a real maximum. All I could
come up with was 168. That was pounding a trainer and seemed way too
low.

Out doing hills I seem to be able to "try harder" but even at the
point of dying, granny gearing and about to fall over on a 12% grade,
at the end of a 30 mile ride....... still not over 170.

Would this really be where you'd expect max heart rate? Just asking...

jj

David,

It's difficult to assess your situation without knowing what's normal
for you. This may be pefectly normal or a sign of trouble. Assuming
you have seen higher numbers before then you may be fatigued, so take
some time off - a few days easy or even rest. If you don't know what
to expect from yourself, then these numbers may be perfectly normal,
everyone is diffent and max HR can vary considerably. Moreover, if
you've already ridden fairly hard and come to a climb at the end, your
HR will also be lower.

Case in point: I know two males, about the same age (~40), level of
training (high) and size. One has a max HR of almost 200, the other
180. There are a number of factors that influence this, not the least
of which is heart size.

The bottom line here is that HR is highly variable and how high you can
get you HR is meaningless. If you feel you're going hard, then you
probably are.

Hope that helps,

Chris Harnish, M.S., HFI
Exercise Physiologist & Coach
The Peaks Coaching Group
We Care About Your Success!

David Ferguson said:

WTF is up with my heart rate? At first I just thought I was a big
wussy and couldn't take the pain to find a real maximum. All I could
come up with was 168. That was pounding a trainer and seemed way too
low.

Out doing hills I seem to be able to "try harder" but even at the
point of dying, granny gearing and about to fall over on a 12% grade,
at the end of a 30 mile ride....... still not over 170.

Out of shape and lazy my resting heart rate is in the low 50's. In
some kind of shape it's high 40's or even low 40's upon waking.

So is my max just that low or am I missing something? At first I
didn't care but I'm trying to do the whole % of max thing to improve
my average speed so I kinda need to know.

Thanks for any help,

David Fredguson

Quoted message said:

David,

It's difficult to assess your situation without knowing what's normal
for you. This may be pefectly normal or a sign of trouble. Assuming
you have seen higher numbers before then you may be fatigued, so take
some time off - a few days easy or even rest. If you don't know what
to expect from yourself, then these numbers may be perfectly normal,
everyone is diffent and max HR can vary considerably. Moreover, if
you've already ridden fairly hard and come to a climb at the end, your
HR will also be lower.

Case in point: I know two males, about the same age (~40), level of
training (high) and size. One has a max HR of almost 200, the other
180. There are a number of factors that influence this, not the least
of which is heart size.

The bottom line here is that HR is highly variable and how high you can
get you HR is meaningless. If you feel you're going hard, then you
probably are.

Hope that helps,

Chris Harnish, M.S., HFI
Exercise Physiologist & Coach
The Peaks Coaching Group
We Care About Your Success!

Willhelm C schreibt
Thanks Chris
You were one of the people I was thinking of.
William John Eberlein (Crowther)

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:53:50 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

When you're rested, go out and do a flat or flatish, 10 mile time trial as
hard as you can without looking at your HRM. Take the average HR for that
ride and divide by 1.02. That will give you a fairly good approximation of
your LTHR.

Having done that I know it averages 147 so /1.02 it would be 144. And
144 is about right for a ride were I feel I'm at "that pain" which
assumed was my LT.

Thank you very much for your reply. I'm glad there is someone with
such good credentials participating here.

I've not seen higher numbers and am sadly sure that it's not
overtraining.

I suppose I should just accept what it is but everything I've read
gives examples much higher. I'm 34 and have no history of heart
problems(family history of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, for which i've
been cleared). I know the 220 minus your age is inaccurate for most
but didn't expect to be 15 bpm lower.

Anyhow, I want to "train" at or above my anaerobic threshold, which I
understand to be 85-90% of maxHR to increase my average speed through
increased AT.(lots of hills included). Thus the need to feel confident
about my max.

Does this all indicate a small heart then? I was very active in my
younger days with track, soccer and baseball so it wouldn't be from a
lack of exertion. Just genetic I guess.

Ok, I'm rambling now and starting to annoy myself.

Thanks again for the information!

Dave

Quoted message said:

David,

It's difficult to assess your situation without knowing what's normal
for you. This may be pefectly normal or a sign of trouble. Assuming
you have seen higher numbers before then you may be fatigued, so take
some time off - a few days easy or even rest. If you don't know what
to expect from yourself, then these numbers may be perfectly normal,
everyone is diffent and max HR can vary considerably. Moreover, if
you've already ridden fairly hard and come to a climb at the end, your
HR will also be lower.

Case in point: I know two males, about the same age (~40), level of
training (high) and size. One has a max HR of almost 200, the other
180. There are a number of factors that influence this, not the least
of which is heart size.

The bottom line here is that HR is highly variable and how high you can
get you HR is meaningless. If you feel you're going hard, then you
probably are.

Hope that helps,

Chris Harnish, M.S., HFI
Exercise Physiologist & Coach
The Peaks Coaching Group
We Care About Your Success!

David Ferguson said:

WTF is up with my heart rate? At first I just thought I was a big
wussy and couldn't take the pain to find a real maximum. All I could
come up with was 168. That was pounding a trainer and seemed way too
low.

Out doing hills I seem to be able to "try harder" but even at the
point of dying, granny gearing and about to fall over on a 12% grade,
at the end of a 30 mile ride....... still not over 170.

Out of shape and lazy my resting heart rate is in the low 50's. In
some kind of shape it's high 40's or even low 40's upon waking.

So is my max just that low or am I missing something? At first I
didn't care but I'm trying to do the whole % of max thing to improve
my average speed so I kinda need to know.

Thanks for any help,

David Fredguson

David Ferguson said:

I suppose I should just accept what it is but everything I've read
gives examples much higher. I'm 34 and have no history of heart
problems(family history of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, for which i've
been cleared). I know the 220 minus your age is inaccurate for most
but didn't expect to be 15 bpm lower.

Anyhow, I want to "train" at or above my anaerobic threshold, which I
understand to be 85-90% of maxHR to increase my average speed through
increased AT.(lots of hills included). Thus the need to feel confident
about my max.

Having a high max heart rate doesn't mean you are capable of
more power output. It just means you have a higher max HR.
So there is nothing to be disappointed about.

HR as a percentage of HR at lactate threshold (LT) is a
better measure of effort anyway. So if you want to train
with HR zones, find some zones that are referenced to your
LTHR, which you have some idea of already. Or just go out
and do moderately long intervals around LTHR (slightly
above?) which is probably as good a method as any of reaching
your goal. You can't do long efforts at a truly anaerobic
level, more or less by definition.

A true max-HR test is supposed to take you from fresh to the
dry heaves pretty quickly, so I don't think the circumstances
you described are reaching max anyway.

Training questions are never off topic in RBR. Stick around
to July to see what people mean by dumb questions.

email hidden said:

Having a high max heart rate doesn't mean you are capable of
more power output. It just means you have a higher max HR.
So there is nothing to be disappointed about.

HR as a percentage of HR at lactate threshold (LT) is a
better measure of effort anyway. So if you want to train
with HR zones, find some zones that are referenced to your
LTHR, which you have some idea of already. Or just go out
and do moderately long intervals around LTHR (slightly
above?) which is probably as good a method as any of reaching
your goal. You can't do long efforts at a truly anaerobic
level, more or less by definition.

A true max-HR test is supposed to take you from fresh to the
dry heaves pretty quickly, so I don't think the circumstances
you described are reaching max anyway.

Training questions are never off topic in RBR. Stick around
to July to see what people mean by dumb questions.

Ok, great. That does make me feel a little better. I tried the "true
test" way of getting on a trainer and pounding 90+ cadence until i saw
black. (only once, no hurry to do it again) and 168 was it. I figured
I was doing something wrong. I seem to have higher average HRs on the
road so that's why i've tried it there. Plus I HAVE to make it up the
steep hill to my house at the end of the ride so I try it there at the
end of varying distance rides and never get to 170.

Though training questions aren't off topic I feel foolish asking when
I'm riding a $600 bike with clips and averaging 16mph on hilly
rides(18 on flats) solo.

I've been among the best in other sports and I know how goofy newbies
can sound, worrying about things that can't even begin to matter at
their level.

Much appreciation,
Dave

David Ferguson said:

Does this all indicate a small heart then? I was very active in my
younger days with track, soccer and baseball so it wouldn't be from a
lack of exertion. Just genetic I guess.

Taken on its own, it would indicate a larger heart. Your heart doesn't
have to pump as often to supply the blood your body needs.

I have a female friend / training client whose low resting HR caused me
some alarm. She just has an extremely powerful heart for her body.
Despite still being significantly overweight, her resting HR is 37 or
lower BPM. Her max is guesstimated (by me) in the 180 range.

Hearts vary.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:41:28 -0600, Raptor <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

Does this all indicate a small heart then? I was very active in my
younger days with track, soccer and baseball so it wouldn't be from a
lack of exertion. Just genetic I guess.

Taken on its own, it would indicate a larger heart. Your heart doesn't
have to pump as often to supply the blood your body needs.

I have a female friend / training client whose low resting HR caused me
some alarm. She just has an extremely powerful heart for her body.
Despite still being significantly overweight, her resting HR is 37 or
lower BPM. Her max is guesstimated (by me) in the 180 range.

Hearts vary.

--

That does make more sense. More volume.

That is odd, to have a resting HR of 37 and be overweight.
Hypothyroidism will lead to both of those states so I wonder if
endocrine dysfunctioni is indicated.

Thanks for th input and I like your website.

D

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:53:50 GMT, "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

When you're rested, go out and do a flat or flatish, 10 mile time trial as
hard as you can without looking at your HRM. Take the average HR for that
ride and divide by 1.02. That will give you a fairly good approximation
of
your LTHR.

Having done that I know it averages 147 so /1.02 it would be 144. And
144 is about right for a ride were I feel I'm at "that pain" which
assumed was my LT.

Assuming that you are in your early 40s(?), you should be able to raise that
significantly with a good training plan. I'm currently 55 and with the same
test my LT is 162. Either of the Friel cycling books (Cyclists Training
Bible or Cycling Past 50) are a really good place to start. I'd recommend
the latter book regardless of age as it's a more easily accessible
distillation of the Bible.

Have fun--if that's the right word.

David Ferguson said:

I'm 34 and have no history of heart
problems(family history of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, for which i've
been cleared).

I have a child who has had open heart surgery, the limit of my
"expertise" in this area of life. So, and asking rhetorically: Cleared?
For that, and your other heart concerns, did you have a 12-lead EKG and
echocardiogram, with up-to-date equipment? One "doctor" we went to
couldn't hear my child's problem through his stethoscope; the next guy
we went to took care of business, although it must be said that his
"ecg" equipment was pretty inferior to the then-new echo gear they had
at the Medical Center in Houston.

Quoted message said:

I know the 220 minus your age is inaccurate for most
but didn't expect to be 15 bpm lower.

There was a brief period in bike racing when you went to a race and the
guys who forgot to turn their HRM beepers off provided amusing music
right after "go"... Swatting at 'puter controls and laughing both make
it difficult to pedal really hard. Not to say that Power Taps, etc.,
don't have a righteous place, but as an old friend once said, "What if
you got the numbers, and they were bad?"

Quoted message said:

Anyhow, I want to "train" at or above my anaerobic threshold, which I
understand to be 85-90% of maxHR to increase my average speed through
increased AT.(lots of hills included). Thus the need to feel confident
about my max.

If you want to increase your _speed_, get a motorcycle and savvy driver
to pace behind, on flat roads (non-"expert" personal opinion based on
experience). You can do some most excellent AT work using only
perceived ("obvious"😉 exertion and the driver's mirrors and
speedometer. Also excellent for finding the draft, and practicing
sprinting, if those apply.
Hills are a different menu item (HO, again).

Oh yeah-- <g> "quit your day job and ride lots". --TP

Well, I WASN'T worried about a heart condition, lol.

I saw a cardiologist and had an echo. There were no other concerns at
the time. Something about a very slight valve leak.

The motorcycle idea is interesting. I have a good friend who's ridden
for years so I might just try that.

Thanks,
D

..

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

I'm 34 and have no history of heart
problems(family history of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, for which i've
been cleared).

I have a child who has had open heart surgery, the limit of my
"expertise" in this area of life. So, and asking rhetorically: Cleared?
For that, and your other heart concerns, did you have a 12-lead EKG and
echocardiogram, with up-to-date equipment? One "doctor" we went to
couldn't hear my child's problem through his stethoscope; the next guy
we went to took care of business, although it must be said that his
"ecg" equipment was pretty inferior to the then-new echo gear they had
at the Medical Center in Houston.

Quoted message said:

I know the 220 minus your age is inaccurate for most
but didn't expect to be 15 bpm lower.

There was a brief period in bike racing when you went to a race and the
guys who forgot to turn their HRM beepers off provided amusing music
right after "go"... Swatting at 'puter controls and laughing both make
it difficult to pedal really hard. Not to say that Power Taps, etc.,
don't have a righteous place, but as an old friend once said, "What if
you got the numbers, and they were bad?"

Quoted message said:

Anyhow, I want to "train" at or above my anaerobic threshold, which I
understand to be 85-90% of maxHR to increase my average speed through
increased AT.(lots of hills included). Thus the need to feel confident
about my max.

If you want to increase your _speed_, get a motorcycle and savvy driver
to pace behind, on flat roads (non-"expert" personal opinion based on
experience). You can do some most excellent AT work using only
perceived ("obvious"😉 exertion and the driver's mirrors and
speedometer. Also excellent for finding the draft, and practicing
sprinting, if those apply.
Hills are a different menu item (HO, again).

Oh yeah-- <g> "quit your day job and ride lots". --TP

David Ferguson said:

Well, I WASN'T worried about a heart condition, lol.

Quoted message said:

I saw a cardiologist and had an echo. There were no other concerns at
the time. Something about a very slight valve leak.

Peace of mind there, but you did have function concerns, hence my
input.

Quoted message said:

The motorcycle idea is interesting. I have a good friend who's ridden
for years so I might just try that.

Quoted message said:

Thanks

You understand, with your family history, where I'm coming from on
this, and you're quite welcome.

Plz feel free to email me for a brief, free-and-worth-it motorpacing
"starter". Your friend must be patient... --TP

David Ferguson said:

email hidden said:

Having a high max heart rate doesn't mean you are capable of
more power output. It just means you have a higher max HR.
So there is nothing to be disappointed about.

HR as a percentage of HR at lactate threshold (LT) is a
better measure of effort anyway. So if you want to train
with HR zones, find some zones that are referenced to your
LTHR, which you have some idea of already. Or just go out
and do moderately long intervals around LTHR (slightly
above?) which is probably as good a method as any of reaching
your goal. You can't do long efforts at a truly anaerobic
level, more or less by definition.

A true max-HR test is supposed to take you from fresh to the
dry heaves pretty quickly, so I don't think the circumstances
you described are reaching max anyway.

Training questions are never off topic in RBR. Stick around
to July to see what people mean by dumb questions.

Ok, great. That does make me feel a little better. I tried the "true
test" way of getting on a trainer and pounding 90+ cadence until i saw
black.

Try warming up to it. After well warmed up -- say 15-20 min -- and
pedaling a decently sized gear, then do an increasingly hard 1-1.5
minute interval to max.

Quoted message said:

(only once, no hurry to do it again) and 168 was it. I figured
I was doing something wrong. I seem to have higher average HRs on the
road so that's why i've tried it there.

That seems very strange. My max is the same outside or on the trainer.
It seems subjectively more uncomfortable inside, because there is
nothing else to focus on except the sucky way the body feels.

Quoted message said:

Plus I HAVE to make it up the
steep hill to my house at the end of the ride so I try it there at the
end of varying distance rides and never get to 170.

Though training questions aren't off topic I feel foolish asking when
I'm riding a $600 bike with clips and averaging 16mph on hilly
rides(18 on flats) solo.

I think you should be happy to be out riding. Ride=good. It's nice to
have a nice bike, but snob dorks are worse than freds.

Quoted message said:

I've been among the best in other sports and I know how goofy newbies
can sound, worrying about things that can't even begin to matter at
their level.

"It is better to ask stupid than to look stupid." -- Fernando Lame-ass

Quoted message said:

I feel I'm at "that pain"...

What pain? Where is it at?

-r

On 1 Jul 2005 23:01:12 -0700, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I feel I'm at "that pain"...

What pain? Where is it at?

-r

Lungs and legs.

D

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WTF is up with my heart rate? At first I just thought I was a big
wussy and couldn't take the pain to find a real maximum. All I could
come up with was 168. That was pounding a trainer and seemed way too
low.

Out doing hills I seem to be able to "try harder" but even at the
point of dying, granny gearing and about to fall over on a 12% grade,
at the end of a 30 mile ride....... still not over 170.

Out of shape and lazy my resting heart rate is in the low 50's. In
some kind of shape it's high 40's or even low 40's upon waking.

So is my max just that low or am I missing something? At first I
didn't care but I'm trying to do the whole % of max thing to improve
my average speed so I kinda need to know.

Thanks for any help,

If there is any concern seek expert medical advice. HR 168 and valve
leakage "may" go together. Chronotropic incompetence is diagnosed at
below 85% of (220 - age) which in your case would be 158.

You are above this and most cardiologists would tell you there is
nothing to worry about but you may want to discuss this with your
doctor.

If all is well, try a treadmill test to determine max HR (running can
yield a higher HR). On a 5% incline, start off at 3 mph and increase 1
mph every 3 minutes until you can't go on. If you reach 10 mph switch
your sport to running.

Phil H