Olanzapine and triglycerides

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by David Dalton, Sep 13, 2003.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    "Dave Bird" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    > In >Looking at your words "the (conscious) choice not to exercise", I think you have the wrong end
    > of the stick: there isn't one. What causes the conscious choice not to exercise if you are
    > lying on your bed with a severe dose of influenza? You feel exhausted and weak, you haven't
    > the energy, and you JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE getting up and rushing around. That's the "choice"
    > you feel like making. Not surprising, really, as your brain is in a fairly altered state. Most
    > of these viruses are dopamine lowering. You feel like you could really murder a dose of mild
    > opiate to blank the dull ache in the centre of your back which has spread into your limbs, and
    > dry up all the saliva and mucus pouring out of you.

    Dopamine may well be a downstream effect but with respect to viruses and systemic inflammation a
    number of other factors need to be taken into account.

    1.

    Tnf a released during fever has the effect of downregulating G protein coupling thereby reducing
    overall cerebral metabolic activity. This effect on G proteins, I think, will impact on Da
    production but Da itself is only one player in the field.

    2.

    il 1 released under a wide variety of stressors and can generate NO via iNOS. This impacts on a
    number of metabolic processes but more particularly excess NO can inhibit neuronal energy production
    via NO competing with O2 for occupation on the electron chain transport elements. As il 1 and tnfa
    are often released concurrently, this constitutes a double whammy on cerebral metabolism.

    3.

    Immunological activation will lead to increased IDO production by various immune cells including
    microglia. IDO catabolizes tryptophan (useful in fighting microbes which often need that amino) and
    this may be why people on interferon therapy(hep c and MS) and cytokine therapy (cancer) experience
    depression. Robbed of extra cellular tryptophan, serotonin synthesis is inhibited.

    4.

    The generic pain often experienced in fevers is via cox 2 generation, many painkillers are cox 2
    inhibitors. Again, immunological activation generally raises cox 2 levels in a variety of cells.

    ---

    You can get all muddled up trying to understand the weight gain in relation to your drug regime. I
    suggest an alternative approach.

    Exercise in the morning, light to moderate, as exercise increases overall metabolic rate and if
    intense enough will maintain the increase for a number of hours.

    You could very well be under estimating the amount of sugars, especially via alcohol, think about
    this. Try and do an accurate analysis of your total caloric intake, it can be upsettingly surprising
    sometimes. Fact is: if you reduce your caloric intake and maintain exercise then weight must fall. I
    know this from my gym days, would starve myself and train like mad. Very difficult to do, may not be
    advisable for you, but it works. You need to be bloody determined though ... .

    Try to develop a fasting habit. As with caloric restriction, fasting can have significant health
    benefits and both have been demonstrated to have favourable impacts on cerebral health
    (neuroprotective) and metabolism. You see, those old mystics weren't that stupid ... . It takes time
    and in my case at least I now find it very difficult to eat a full meal. Don't eat full meals,
    rather half meals throughout the day. Healthy ones! I think my stomach must have shrunk over the
    years. It will take many months to do this but the effects may well last a very long time. Caloric
    restriction is the only proven method for improving longevity in lab studies. Reducing caloric
    intake doesn't necessarily reduce overall activity. I can easily go for 24 hours without eating, and
    put in a 12 hour day on the books.

    Vaguely, I recall reading an abstract indicating that administration of vitamin E can help reduce
    tardive dyskinesia. How is your anti-oxidant status generally? If you are drinking alcohol are you
    taking a vit B group s upplement (another study stated administration of B groups slightly improved
    anti-depressant drug response). L-carnitine supplement may help in weight problems. With regard to
    this paragraph see your doctor first! Eg. in a manic phase, though doubtful, L-carnitine may not be
    such a good idea as it increases ATP production and overall energy availability. Also consider omega
    3 supplementation, though not demonstrated for bipolar these fats have shown efficacy in a number of
    conditions, including mental health ones.

    The choice not to exercise is part of the human condition, trust me you're not unique on this one.
    One way to overcome it is to coax yourself into exercise, beyond a certain level exercise becomes
    natural and fun. I saw this so often at the gym, people became addicted to exercise. But then if you
    like pot that ain't gonna happen. A lot of crap is said about pot but the one thing I have noticed
    in myself and others time and again is that pot makes life too good, who wants to struggle when just
    a cone away is another relaxing evening ... . Damn I've run out again. Maintain the meditation,
    recent research shows it can have significant benefits. One recent study claimed it elevated left
    cerebral activity over right, hence help in ameliorating depression. Also , some meditation types
    boost melatonin production, good endogenous anti oxidant. See, told you those mystics weren't that
    dumb. Tell me, can you meditate in the manic phases? Have your tried vispassana meditation during
    these times? Hmmm, what an interesting show that would be ... .

    The comments re moon, weather and sunspot activity are interesting. One of my side projects for a
    number of years now. Something subtle may be going on here but having searched the literature I have
    never been able to find anything convincing. However, on the weather side I'm sure there is some
    subtle effect. No idea why though.

    Learn to stay hungry, you'll get used to it.

    John H.

    PS: No more pot for you sunny Jim! Too dangerous.

    > >But with free will, you can overcome this.

    If free will is free then explain:

    multitude of separated twin studies showing v. similiar preferences re mates, jobs, lifestyles,
    haircuts, political leanings ... . The list goes on and on. Very little of our choices are actually
    "free", often we make choices because of constraints imposed upon us. That doesn't sound like
    freedom to me. "Free will" is a concept that has its origins in religious thinking, particularly
    christianity and 'choosing' salvation; though a brief reading of theology (cf predestination,
    calvinism, arminianism) quickly reveals how much grief the concept of free will has created. "Free
    will" explains nothing about human behaviour, it is essentially a 'black box' concept revealing more
    about our ignorance of our decision making processes than our personal and collective awareness of
    our decision making processes. Free will is one of the greatest straw men ideas of history. As the
    Buddha would say, "Throw it down!"
     


  2. Dave Bird

    Dave Bird Guest

    In article<[email protected]>, Moosh:) <[email protected]> writes:
    >But we have free will.

    But I have nostrils -- so what?

    >>>>Where it will rob from is muscle activity,
    >>>
    >>>This is generally a voluntary activity. What causes the choice to not exercise?
    >>
    >> I can only appeal to our friend common observation that reduced calorie intake produces a drive
    >> to a corresponding reduction in activity, sure as eggs is eggs.
    >
    >But only if you choose. It doesn't force it.

    What we have here is a fallacy of the excluded middle: "the degree of exercise taken is EITHER
    because of one factor OR another." In actual fact it comes in various percentages from various
    contributing causes.

    Which things could prevent you taking exercise? Suppose you had a club foot. Suppose your hormonal
    settings made your muscles feel very tired. Suppose your hormonal levels made you feel low in mood
    and disinclined to do anything (or more subtly, disinclined to physical movement). These things do
    not go away because you just decided they would. To restore your old level of exertion requires
    great mental effort to perceive the changes, to force yourself to overcome them, to deal with the
    fact that it only partially succeeded last time and you have to keep forcing yourself, etc. It will
    involve an immense degree of sustained effort to overcome the obstacles, even if they are only of
    tired muscles or lowered mood, much as if you were struggling against a physical club foot or ball
    and chain.

    --

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    8====3 (O 0) GROETEN --- PRINTZ XEMU EXTRAWL no real OT has |n| (COMMANDER, FIFTH INVADER FORCE)
    ever existed ................................................................. A society without a
    religion is like a maniac without a chainsaw.
     
  3. Moosh:)

    Moosh:) Guest

    On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 16:57:22 +0000, Dave Bird <[email protected]> wrote:

    >>>>So less burned means you do less and must wear more clothes to feel warm?
    >>>
    >>> Pass, I'm not sure.
    >>
    >>So many aren't. There is one thing for certain. All calories MUST be accounted for. They can't
    >>just disappear into the woodwork. Say there are 1000 calories swallowed. Every one of these must
    >>be found and listed as to its fate. It can be absorbed from the gut and used for muscular
    >>activity, metabolic activity, stored, excreted (many ways -- urine, faeces etc)
    >>
    >>>It may not even be the only mechanism that glucose and fats liberated from food are "burned"
    >>>otherwise; it may be that the limits are set low to excrete glucose via the kidneys
    >>
    >>Called diabetes mellitus
    >>
    >>>and fats via the liver.
    >>
    >>Stored or excreted?
    >
    > It may be that excretion of glucose begins at a lower level of blood glucose (within normal range,
    > short of full diabetes),

    How often does this happen? I've never heard of it, with normal kidneys.

    > or that fats are excreted via the biliary route into faeces.

    You mean dietary fats excreted rather than absorbed?

    > A switch from deposition to defecation of fat would not affect your body temperature.

    But would affect your well being. Steatorrhoea is not a good condition. This of course means that
    these calories were never absorbed in the first place.

    >>>This wouldn't feel any warmer or colder, of course.
    >>
    >>But with inadequate clothes in a cold climate, you burn more energy.
    >>
    >>> Equally the appetite-related thing probably boosts building glucose into fats and blocks
    >>> excretion of fats.
    >>
    >>Appetite influences the brain to swallow more or less food.
    >
    > Yes but there are a number of parasymathetic outputs which influence things like feeding behaviour
    > up or down,

    But we have free will.

    > rate of glucose to stored starch conversion (insulin),

    Huh?

    >rate of glucose to fat conversion, rate of fat deposition, blood-glucose threshold for glucose
    >excretion via kidneys,

    Normally way above normal levels for very good survival reasons.

    >blood fat threshold for fat excretion via liver, fluid retention, etc.

    Fat is not excreted via the liver, or anywhere else for similar very good survival reasons.

    >>>Where it will rob from is muscle activity,
    >>
    >>This is generally a voluntary activity. What causes the choice to not exercise?
    >
    > I can only appeal to our friend common observation that reduced calorie intake produces a drive to
    > a corresponding reduction in activity, sure as eggs is eggs.

    But only if you choose. It doesn't force it.

    >Yes, it can be overcome if you observe what is happening and make a constant deliberate effort but
    >> If you
    >>> exercise anyway then it will make you will feel inexplicably more tired and/or hungry than it
    >>> used to.

    Yep, and you can get used to it.

    > Looking at your words "the (conscious) choice not to exercise", I think you have the wrong end of
    > the stick: there isn't one.

    Well I do it every day. I don't think I'm all that peculiar, but then....

    >What causes the conscious choice not to exercise if you are lying on your bed with a severe dose of
    >influenza?

    Common sense. You SHOULD rest with this dangerous illness.

    >You feel exhausted and weak, you haven't the energy, and you JUST DON'T FEEL LIKE getting up and
    >rushing around.

    See above.

    >That's the "choice" you feel like making. Not surprising, really, as your brain is in a fairly
    >altered state. Most of these viruses are dopamine lowering. You feel like you could really murder a
    >dose of mild opiate to blank the dull ache in the centre of your back which has spread into your
    >limbs, and dry up all the saliva and mucus pouring out of you.
    >
    >>But with free will, you can overcome this.

    If you are stupid, yes.

    > These words free will are bandied around an awful lot, but in actual fact most of your
    > well-adapted regular behaviours happen at a level of unconscious habit.

    Which have developed by repeated acts of free will.

    >To try maintaining correct activity without the prompts, to eat correctly when not automatically
    >prompted by appetite or protect yourself from harm without proper pain signals, becomes rather like
    >trying to ride a bike by conscious voluntary thought of "first the right foot, now the left foot,
    >then the left foot, now the right foot..."

    Which is what you do when you are learning. The diet/way-of-life changes are quite similar. You must
    follow the way consciously at first until it becomes automatic. That's a good one IMHO, changing you
    way-of-life is like learning to ride a bike. Thank you.

    Moosh:)
     
  4. Moosh:)

    Moosh:) Guest

    wrote:

    >> >But with free will, you can overcome this.
    >
    >If free will is free then explain:
    >
    >multitude of separated twin studies showing v. similiar preferences re mates, jobs, lifestyles,
    >haircuts, political leanings ... . The list goes on and on. Very little of our choices are actually
    >"free", often we make choices because of constraints imposed upon us.

    No, between two similar choices, a very small "tendency" will generally dictate which one is chosen.

    >That doesn't sound like freedom to me. "Free will" is a concept that has its origins in religious
    >thinking, particularly christianity and 'choosing' salvation; though a brief reading of theology
    >(cf predestination, calvinism, arminianism) quickly reveals how much grief the concept of free will
    >has created. "Free will" explains nothing about human behaviour, it is essentially a 'black box'
    >concept revealing more about our ignorance of our decision making processes than our personal and
    >collective awareness of our decision making processes. Free will is one of the greatest straw men
    >ideas of history. As the Buddha would say, "Throw it down!"

    I choose to disagree with you :)

    Moosh:)
     
  5. Moosh:)

    Moosh:) Guest

    On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:05:36 +0000, Dave Bird <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article<[email protected]>, Moosh:) <[email protected]> writes:
    >>But we have free will.
    >
    > But I have nostrils -- so what?

    You use them for breathing through, and smelling things and wandering around with a blank look and
    your finger up one of them.

    What is your point?

    Are you saying that YOUR free will is not free? Mine is.

    >>>>>Where it will rob from is muscle activity,
    >>>>
    >>>>This is generally a voluntary activity. What causes the choice to not exercise?
    >>>
    >>> I can only appeal to our friend common observation that reduced calorie intake produces a drive
    >>> to a corresponding reduction in activity, sure as eggs is eggs.
    >>
    >>But only if you choose. It doesn't force it.
    >
    > What we have here is a fallacy of the excluded middle: "the degree of exercise taken is EITHER
    > because of one factor OR another." In actual fact it comes in various percentages from various
    > contributing causes.
    >
    > Which things could prevent you taking exercise? Suppose you had a club foot.

    Never seen folks with a club foot exercising?

    >Suppose your hormonal settings made your muscles feel very tired.

    Which muscles? Your VOLUNTARY muscles?

    >Suppose your hormonal levels made you feel low in mood and disinclined to do anything (or more
    >subtly, disinclined to physical movement).

    And when you feel the need of the pottie, you get up and walk there? If you can decide to do that,
    you can decide to walk to the letter box, walk to the shops, walk to a freind's place.

    >These things do not go away because you just decided they would.

    But that's not a decision of will.

    There is an old story in many cultures. I saw it expressed thus, recently:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    An old Cherokee is telling his grandson about a fight that is going on inside himself. He said it is
    between 2 wolves.

    One is evil: Anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment,
    inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego....

    The other is good: Joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy,
    generosity, truth, compassion and faith.....

    The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf wins?"

    The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one I feed."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This is really cognitive behavioural therapy. But we are talking about deciding whether to use our
    voluntary muscles or not. This is available to our free will, baring injury, and for the purposes of
    argument, I asssumed we were limiting this to healthy adults.

    >To restore your old level of exertion requires great mental effort to perceive the changes, to
    >force yourself to overcome them, to deal with the fact that it only partially succeeded last time
    >and you have to keep forcing yourself, etc.

    Free will, in other words.

    >It will involve an immense degree of sustained effort to overcome the obstacles, even if they are
    >only of tired muscles or lowered mood, much as if you were struggling against a physical club foot
    >or ball and chain.

    Yes, but you are considering only the extreme, and even here, free will is available to us, no
    matter how hard.

    You were saying?

    Moosh:)
     
  6. Zee

    Zee Guest

    "Moosh:)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 20:05:36 +0000, Dave Bird <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >In article<[email protected]>, Moosh:) <[email protected]> writes:
    > >>But we have free will.
    > >
    > > But I have nostrils -- so what?
    >
    > You use them for breathing through, and smelling things and wandering around with a blank look and
    > your finger up one of them.
    >
    > What is your point?
    >
    > Are you saying that YOUR free will is not free? Mine is.
    >
    > >>>>>Where it will rob from is muscle activity,
    > >>>>
    > >>>>This is generally a voluntary activity. What causes the choice to not exercise?
    > >>>
    > >>> I can only appeal to our friend common observation that reduced calorie intake produces a
    > >>> drive to a corresponding reduction in activity, sure as eggs is eggs.
    > >>
    > >>But only if you choose. It doesn't force it.
    > >
    > > What we have here is a fallacy of the excluded middle: "the degree of exercise taken is EITHER
    > > because of one factor OR another." In actual fact it comes in various percentages from various
    > > contributing causes.
    > >
    > > Which things could prevent you taking exercise? Suppose you had a club foot.
    >
    > Never seen folks with a club foot exercising?
    >
    > >Suppose your hormonal settings made your muscles feel very tired.
    >
    > Which muscles? Your VOLUNTARY muscles?
    >
    > >Suppose your hormonal levels made you feel low in mood and disinclined to do anything (or more
    > >subtly, disinclined to physical movement).
    >
    > And when you feel the need of the pottie, you get up and walk there? If you can decide to do that,
    > you can decide to walk to the letter box, walk to the shops, walk to a freind's place.
    >
    > >These things do not go away because you just decided they would.
    >
    > But that's not a decision of will.
    >
    > There is an old story in many cultures. I saw it expressed thus, recently:
    >
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > An old Cherokee is telling his grandson about a fight that is going on inside himself. He said it
    > is between 2 wolves.
    >
    > One is evil: Anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment,
    > inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego....
    >
    > The other is good: Joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy,
    > generosity, truth, compassion and faith.....
    >
    > The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf wins?"
    >
    > The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one I feed."
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >
    > This is really cognitive behavioural therapy. But we are talking about deciding whether to use our
    > voluntary muscles or not. This is available to our free will, baring injury, and for the purposes
    > of argument, I asssumed we were limiting this to healthy adults.
    >
    > >To restore your old level of exertion requires great mental effort to perceive the changes, to
    > >force yourself to overcome them, to deal with the fact that it only partially succeeded last time
    > >and you have to keep forcing yourself, etc.
    >
    > Free will, in other words.
    >
    > >It will involve an immense degree of sustained effort to overcome the obstacles, even if they are
    > >only of tired muscles or lowered mood, much as if you were struggling against a physical club
    > >foot or ball and chain.
    >
    > Yes, but you are considering only the extreme, and even here, free will is available to us, no
    > matter how hard.
    >
    > You were saying?
    >
    >
    >
    > Moosh:)

    There is no point bashing this guy over the head because he lacks motivation. It's one of the
    PRIMARY symptoms of his brain disorder. It's not something responsive to WILL.

    SIS
     
  7. Zee wrote:

    >
    > There is no point bashing this guy over the head because he lacks motivation. It's one of the
    > PRIMARY symptoms of his brain disorder. It's not something responsive to WILL.
    >
    It is also a primary side effect of the medication which causes effective exhaustion. SZ are in fact
    highly motivated according to Occupational Therapists who find physical injury patients less so.

    But quite right Bashing the ill is pointless, why not pick on someone of your own health,
    yourselves?
     
  8. Zee wrote:

    >
    > There is no point bashing this guy over the head because he lacks motivation. It's one of the
    > PRIMARY symptoms of his brain disorder. It's not something responsive to WILL.
    >
    Olanzapine also causes blood sugar disturbances, this guy might have hypoglycemia to add to his
    difficulties.
     
  9. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    "Moosh:)" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > wrote:
    >
    > >> >But with free will, you can overcome this.
    > >
    > >If free will is free then explain:
    > >
    > >multitude of separated twin studies showing v. similiar preferences re mates, jobs, lifestyles,
    > >haircuts, political leanings ... . The list goes
    on
    > >and on. Very little of our choices are actually "free", often we make choices because of
    > >constraints imposed upon us.
    >
    > No, between two similar choices, a very small "tendency" will generally dictate which one
    > is chosen.
    >
    > >That doesn't sound like freedom to me. "Free will" is a concept that has its origins in religious
    > >thinking, particularly christianity and 'choosing' salvation; though a
    brief
    > >reading of theology (cf predestination, calvinism, arminianism) quickly reveals how much grief
    > >the concept of free will has created. "Free will" explains nothing about human behaviour, it is
    > >essentially a 'black box' concept revealing more about our ignorance of our decision making
    processes
    > >than our personal and collective awareness of our decision making
    processes.
    > >Free will is one of the greatest straw men ideas of history. As the
    Buddha
    > >would say, "Throw it down!"
    >
    > I choose to disagree with you :)

    And here's the rub:

    In christian theology there are\were two broad streams of ideas about being saved. The calvinist
    angle, that God alone determines our fate, the arminian angle, that we may be chosen by God but must
    also choose that salvation. There is no way to settle this matter from a biblical perspective, so
    one day I asked a minister what he thinks causes people to be a calvinist or otherwise. He replied
    that their personality is the key factor. Now then, in relation to the free will debate, can the
    same be said about those against free will and those for it? Place your bets.

    John H.
     
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