One for the GPS fans

Frightening.

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be invalid
and you would have to foot the bill.

"214Fells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....

"They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was on
the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20 ( a lucky find given the
weather and information) fed and watered as they had not taken food on
the hill. They were walked off to Wasdale and transported back to
Eskdale.

Incident closed at 00.00 hours with12 team members involved including
around 12 attending at the Base as back up if the incident demanded
more numbers on the fell.

Note - GPS' should be set up to the 'British Grid' system and 'Ordnance
Survey GB' datum so that they give readouts consistent with the OS
maps"

David.

In message <[email hidden]>, Andy T
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Frightening.

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Given that MRT Wasdale are a volunteer team who don't charge for their
services what would the insurance pay for?

Quoted message said:

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be invalid
and you would have to foot the bill.

There are no costs for rescue.

Quoted message said:

"214Fells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....

"They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was on
the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20 ( a lucky find given the
weather and information) fed and watered as they had not taken food on
the hill. They were walked off to Wasdale and transported back to
Eskdale.

Incident closed at 00.00 hours with12 team members involved including
around 12 attending at the Base as back up if the incident demanded
more numbers on the fell.

Note - GPS' should be set up to the 'British Grid' system and 'Ordnance
Survey GB' datum so that they give readouts consistent with the OS
maps"

David.

In Article <[email hidden]>,"Andy T"

Quoted message said:

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be invalid
and you would have to foot the bill.

Hmmm, but the insurance companies that we all know and love would find this
a very convenient get-out for virtually any claim. Let's face it; if you are
unfortunate enough to need to call an MRT, then it's usually because you
have made a mistake or misjudgement of some kind, which could easily be
construed as negligence on your part.

Regards,
Richard G.

No costs for a rescue?

Eh?

I think you need to reconsider that last statement!

"Chris Townsend" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Andy T
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Frightening.

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Given that MRT Wasdale are a volunteer team who don't charge for their
services what would the insurance pay for?

Quoted message said:

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be
invalid
and you would have to foot the bill.

There are no costs for rescue.

Quoted message said:

"214Fells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....

"They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was on
the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20 ( a lucky find given the
weather and information) fed and watered as they had not taken food on
the hill. They were walked off to Wasdale and transported back to
Eskdale.

Incident closed at 00.00 hours with12 team members involved including
around 12 attending at the Base as back up if the incident demanded
more numbers on the fell.

Note - GPS' should be set up to the 'British Grid' system and 'Ordnance
Survey GB' datum so that they give readouts consistent with the OS
maps"

David.

In message <[email hidden]>,
214Fells <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....

"They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was on
the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20 ( a lucky find given the
weather and information) fed and watered as they had not taken food on
the hill. They were walked off to Wasdale and transported back to
Eskdale.

Incident closed at 00.00 hours with12 team members involved including
around 12 attending at the Base as back up if the incident demanded
more numbers on the fell.

Note - GPS' should be set up to the 'British Grid' system and 'Ordnance
Survey GB' datum so that they give readouts consistent with the OS
maps"

David.

Strange. The difference between WGS84 (presumably the 'default' on a
GPS) and OSGB is a lot less than 400 metres. I can't be bothered to
check exactly but probably 150 metres.

See:

<http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/gps/information/coordinatesyst
emsinfo/guidecontents/guide1.html>

They must have had some other problem as well!

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

Regards
--
Neil Pugh

Andy T said:

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Errrr, no!

Unlike the case with motor vehicles, there is very little overall cost
caused by MRT callouts (even if you ignore, as you have here, that the
costs of the MRT are borne by charitable donations) in the UK. It would
make /far/ more sense to have compulsory insurance for domestic
accidents, because there are far more of them resulting in far more
carnage and far more cost to the taxpayer.

Compulsory insurance for walkers raises far more issues than it solves.
When does a walk suddenly go from not needing insurance to needing
insurance? Any changeover point you set is bound to be completely
arbitrary. How are you going to police it? And why should folk on low
incomes be priced off the land it is their right to walk over?

This sort of thing just makes a benign and simple activity out to be
unreasonably dangerous and introduces huge unnecessary faffs,
bureaucracy and expense.

Quoted message said:

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be invalid
and you would have to foot the bill.

You are really Angus and I claim my £5!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In message <[email hidden]>, Andy T
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

No costs for a rescue?

Eh?

I think you need to reconsider that last statement!

No I don't. Mountain rescue teams are made up of volunteers who give
their time for free. They don't charge for rescues so there are no costs
to those rescued. MR teams are charities and raise money from donations
to cover their costs.

Quoted message said:

"Chris Townsend" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Andy T
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Frightening.

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Given that MRT Wasdale are a volunteer team who don't charge for their
services what would the insurance pay for?

Quoted message said:

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be
invalid
and you would have to foot the bill.

There are no costs for rescue.

Quoted message said:

"214Fells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....
>
> "They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
> plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was on
> the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
> found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20 ( a lucky find given the
> weather and information) fed and watered as they had not taken food on
> the hill. They were walked off to Wasdale and transported back to
> Eskdale.
>
> Incident closed at 00.00 hours with12 team members involved including
> around 12 attending at the Base as back up if the incident demanded
> more numbers on the fell.
>
> Note - GPS' should be set up to the 'British Grid' system and 'Ordnance
> Survey GB' datum so that they give readouts consistent with the OS
> maps"
>
> David.
>

Neil Pugh said:

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

You are joking? aren't you????

David.

"214Fells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Neil Pugh said:

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

You are joking? aren't you????

As a Peak District park ranger, I come across people with only a GPS
and no map or compass all the time.

In article <[email hidden]>,
214Fells <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Neil Pugh said:

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

You are joking? aren't you????

The well equipped and experienced do tend to see such situations as
frightening but the fact remains that the vast majority of the poorly
equipped and inexperienced survive their trip without assistance.

It is not quite as dangerous out there as Angry Gus would have us think.

--

Dominic Sexton

214Fells said:

Neil Pugh said:

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

You are joking? aren't you????

Why would he be joking? I've met plenty of folk up hills without any
map. Last one was off the back of Cairngorm, full snow cover, asking
whether he'd get to Macdui and back before his bus left the ski area car
park, and which one /was/ Ben Macdui?

We suggested he'd be better off returning straight away...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Dominic Sexton said:

The well equipped and experienced do tend to see such situations as
frightening but the fact remains that the vast majority of the poorly
equipped and inexperienced survive their trip without assistance.

It is not quite as dangerous out there as Angry Gus would have us think.

In good conditions - or should I say good visibility, you can get by
without any aids (compass, map, gps) but how many times do conditions
stay like that?

Only last week I was very reliant on a combination of map & gps as
while going from Sale How to Skiddaw Little Man the conditions went
from good visibility down to 10-20 metres very quickly...

Also on Bleaklow in similarly poor conditions (last Autumn) without the
aids previously mentioned I could have spent hours going round and
round in circles.......

David.

Neil Pugh said:

In message <[email hidden]>,
214Fells <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....

"They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was on
the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20

Quoted message said:

Strange. The difference between WGS84 (presumably the 'default' on a
GPS) and OSGB is a lot less than 400 metres. I can't be bothered to
check exactly but probably 150 metres.

In the region of Broad Crag I make WGS84 roughly 111m to the SE of
OSGB.

Quoted message said:

They must have had some other problem as well!

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

A map is no good without the skills to interpret it or the nous to
consult it. I recently got myself a little locationally disadvantaged
/twice/ when doing the Strathfarrar Six, thinking I was walking along
a nice grassy ridge in the mist but in fact walking off it on a spur.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

In message <[email hidden]>,
214Fells <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Neil Pugh said:

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

You are joking? aren't you????

David.

I fear I'm not. We got to the top of Scafell Pike a few years ago (in a
cloud as usual) and were having a chat when two blokes in Bermuda shorts
and trainers approached us and asked how to get down. We pulled out a
map (see comment above). We pointed them at the top of the path to
Wasdale.

The worst I've ever seen was near the top of Pen y Fan. It was raining
and so cold that the rain was freezing onto any exposed rock. A party of
two (presumably) teachers and a crowd of kids were up there. The
teachers were swathed in acres of fleece and Grotex, many of the kids
weren't. Some of the children were in tears and obviously distressed. We
offered our services to help get them off the mountain and were told to
go away. You can't help some people. This, it has to be said, was before
the Lyme Bay canoeing tragedy which tightened up a lot of the
regulations (now it's probably gone too far the other way, but that's
another argument).

Regards
--
Neil Pugh

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Frightening.

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Given that MRT Wasdale are a volunteer team who don't charge for their
services what would the insurance pay for?

A round of beer at the local to say 'thank you'?
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

Quoted message said:

No I don't. Mountain rescue teams are made up of volunteers who give their
time for free.

CORRECT

Quoted message said:

They don't charge for rescues so there are no costs

BOLLOCKS

Quoted message said:

to those rescued. MR teams are charities and raise money from donations to
cover their costs.

Oh, so now there are costs... in the previous sentence there were none.

Cockermouth MT :
"How much does it cost to run the team per year?
It costs approximately £25,000 per year to run the team. Our pagers and
communications land lines cost £4500 per year alone. A new vehicle costs
about £26,000 with all the extra equipment we require. Stretchers, first aid
equipment and climbing gear all need to be replaced on a regular basis. "

And that does not include costs incurred by police, ambulance, raf, local
air ambulance, hostpitals etc etc

No costs.... Please....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Chris Townsend" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Andy T
<[email hidden]> writes
>Frightening.
>
>This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Given that MRT Wasdale are a volunteer team who don't charge for their
services what would the insurance pay for?
>
>The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
>**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be
>invalid
>and you would have to foot the bill.

There are no costs for rescue.
>
>"214Fells" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> Part of a report by MRT Wasdale.....
>>
>> "They did not reach the summit and were unable to navigate of the
>> plateau despite having a GPS and map. It transpired that the GPS was
>> on
>> the default setting, this gives an error of 400~ metres. They were
>> found on the north side of Broad Crag at 20.20 ( a lucky find given
>> the
>> weather and information) fed and watered as they had not taken food on
>> the hill. They were walked off to Wasdale and transported back to
>> Eskdale.
>>
>> Incident closed at 00.00 hours with12 team members involved including
>> around 12 attending at the Base as back up if the incident demanded
>> more numbers on the fell.
>>
>> Note - GPS' should be set up to the 'British Grid' system and
>> 'Ordnance
>> Survey GB' datum so that they give readouts consistent with the OS
>> maps"
>>
>> David.
>>
>
>

In message <[email hidden]>,
214Fells <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Neil Pugh said:

Mind you if they had a map they were better equipped than some people
I've met up there. "A map, that's a good idea." You despair, you really
do.

You are joking? aren't you????

I can recall several occasions when I have been asked for directions
from people without map, compass, GPS or common-sense. Most recently
last year, on Stob Coire Sgriodain in thick mist - six people had
followed me up the hill. Each time I stopped to let them go ahead,
because they were bugging me, they stopped just ahead. Eventually it
twigged that they were using me as a guide - confirmed when I
deliberately went round 270 degrees of a circle. So then I challenged
them and made it clear that I was not prepared to take on responsibility
for them. Good job too - because I got temporarily misplaced looking for
the south top.

--
Martin Richardson
520/1554 Marilyns - 67% to go 60/89 Donalds - 33% to go
61/211 Irish Hewitts - 71% to go 20/220 Corbetts - 91% to go

On Wed, 24 May 2006 18:02:49 GMT, Andy T wrote...

Quoted message said:

Oh, so now there are costs... in the previous sentence there were none.

Cockermouth MT :
"How much does it cost to run the team per year?
It costs approximately £25,000 per year to run the team. Our pagers and
communications land lines cost £4500 per year alone. A new vehicle costs
about £26,000 with all the extra equipment we require. Stretchers, first aid
equipment and climbing gear all need to be replaced on a regular basis. "

I visit the area covered by Cockermouth MRT every year, and regularly
see members of the team at fund-raising evenings. People often ask them
about becoming a paid-for service at such events, and they've always
consistently said that it's the last thing they want. They are
definitely against the idea of charging the people they rescue. They
believe they can do a better job as a voluntary service.

The costs you mention are therefore met by voluntary donations. They
don't want it any other way. Who are you to tell them they are wrong?

--
Tim Jackson
[email hidden]
(Change '.invalid' to '.com' to reply direct)
Absurd patents: visit http://www.patent.freeserve.co.uk

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andy T said:

This is why compulsary insurance should be introduced.

Errrr, no!

Unlike the case with motor vehicles, there is very little overall cost
caused by MRT callouts (even if you ignore, as you have here, that the
costs of the MRT are borne by charitable donations) in the UK. It would
make /far/ more sense to have compulsory insurance for domestic accidents,
because there are far more of them resulting in far more carnage and far
more cost to the taxpayer.

Compulsory insurance for walkers raises far more issues than it solves.
When does a walk suddenly go from not needing insurance to needing
insurance?

In all right to roam areas, for instance, would be a good case.
Or how about anywhere if the MRT need to be called in the option of the MRT
or the Police?
EASY.

Any changeover point you set is bound to be completely

Quoted message said:

arbitrary. How are you going to police it? And why should folk on low
incomes be priced off the land it is their right to walk over?

It's not a charge for using the land, its a charge to cover the costs of a
rescue if it's required.

Quoted message said:

This sort of thing just makes a benign and simple activity out to be
unreasonably dangerous and introduces huge unnecessary faffs, bureaucracy
and expense.

No! Annual Insurance is not a faff. Quick google for the cheapest/best
suited then sign up online.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The insurnace would pay for the rescue BUT if you were negligent (and it
**SEEMS ** like they were in this case) then the insurance would be
invalid and you would have to foot the bill.

You are really Angus and I claim my £5!

Save your money for your insurance costs.

Quoted message said:

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/