Order of training days

[thule]

hi,

why do most training Plans build up the duration of the efforts while reducing the intensity.

Like:
day 1: L5
day 2: L4
day 3: SST or L3 or L2
day 4: rest
Because recovery from L5 training need´s more time, wouldn`t it be better to do it in other order´s ??

Like:

day 1: SST
day 2: L4
day 3: L5
day 4: rest
I´am not able to do a good workout of L4 training after a day of solid L5 Training. The day after L4 or SST Training it´s no Problem to do some intensive training with a rest day the next day.

Thanks

 

[Alex Simmons]

why do most training Plans build up the duration of the efforts while reducing the intensity.

I didn't know they did. Which training plans are those?

 

[thule]

Here in germany a lot of plans are made like this. They say it´s mental easier to do efforts with lower intensity at the end of a block.
And after a rest day it´s easier to do hard work, like L5.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Here in germany a lot of plans are made like this. They say it´s mental easier to do efforts with lower intensity at the end of a block.
And after a rest day it´s easier to do hard work, like L5.

I'd say it depends more on what you're used to and how hard the "hard days" really are.

 

[bor1234]

I schedule my days in decreasing intensity, because I want to be "fresher" for the weekend when most of the races or hard group rides happen. But there is no magic bullet, all that matters is quality time in those different zones, how you spread it out is up to you.

 

[frenchyge]

why do most training Plans build up the duration of the efforts while reducing the intensity.

Personally, I'd do those workouts as:

Day 1: L4
Day 2: L5
Day 3: SST
Day 4: Rest

A typical L5 workout for me would be a lower TSS than the others, and also lower than I can comfortably recover from in a day, so I'd use that to bounce back from the L4 workout a smidge. Plus, assuming Day '0' was also a rest day, I'd expect to perform slightly better on Day 2, than Day1, so I'd put the most power-intensive workout there. I doubt most training plans really take any of that into consideration, however.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...why do most training Plans build up the duration of the efforts while reducing the intensity....

I'm a fan of the decreasing intensity / increasing duration approach to training. I like being freshest for my hardest workouts, the mental advantage of knowing that when I finish a workout the subsequent workouts will be easier and finishing my midweek training block with longer sustained rides that are easy to recover from with attention to refueling which sets me up well for weekend riding or racing. I did the opposite for many years(hard late in the week) and often found myself too tired and skipped the high end work.

I got the idea from Greg Lemond's book but didn't try it when I first read his book back in the day since it sounded so unusual. He credit's Cyril Guimard from his early pro experience so the idea goes back 25 or 30 years at least even if it's not widely accepted.

I agree with the poster above who said it really doesn't matter as long as you can complete the desired work and are fresh enough for important days, especially race days. I really like the decreased intensity/increased duration approach to weekly scheduling but I'm not married to it and will move things around to deal with scheduling problems and sometimes end up turning it on its head when life gets in the way or I'm changing things up for a peaking schedule. I doubt the order of intensity is the most important thing to worry about, but I do like the Lemond approach.

-Dave

 

[frenchyge]

Because recovery from L5 training need´s more time, wouldn`t it be better to do it in other order´s ??

L5 does require more recovery on an equal-work basis, but consider that typical L5 workouts are 1/2 - 1/4 the duration of typical L4 or SST workouts. I've found that while the perceived exertion for L5 rides is very high during the ride, they are not workouts that are going to put you on the couch for a couple days like a hard weekend might.

Bottom line is that it's not hard to mix it up and see what allows the best use of your time.

 

[Spunout]

A typical L5 workout for me would be a lower TSS than the others

Is it possible that TSS is misleading you? The concept needs the athlete to be 'bounced back' for the next day's workout, in that the subsequent workout must push the limit. On the third day, it is all you can do to finish the endurance ride.

 

[postal_bag]

I'm a fan of the decreasing intensity / increasing duration approach to training. I like being freshest for my hardest workouts, the mental advantage of knowing that when I finish a workout the subsequent workouts will be easier and finishing my midweek training block with longer sustained rides that are easy to recover from with attention to refueling which sets me up well for weekend riding or racing. I did the opposite for many years(hard late in the week) and often found myself too tired and skipped the high end work.

I got the idea from Greg Lemond's book but didn't try it when I first read his book back in the day since it sounded so unusual. He credit's Cyril Guimard from his early pro experience so the idea goes back 25 or 30 years at least even if it's not widely accepted.

I agree with the poster above who said it really doesn't matter as long as you can complete the desired work and are fresh enough for important days, especially race days. I really like the decreased intensity/increased duration approach to weekly scheduling but I'm not married to it and will move things around to deal with scheduling problems and sometimes end up turning it on its head when life gets in the way or I'm changing things up for a peaking schedule. I doubt the order of intensity is the most important thing to worry about, but I do like the Lemond approach.

-Dave

I like both approaches. You can also get a mental advantage from knowing that your subsequent efforts will be shorter, albeit at an increased intensity.

I kind of see all types of efforts as being equal, if the duration is appropriate. I would want to be fresh for 3 x 30' at >95% FTP.

 

[frenchyge]

Is it possible that TSS is misleading you? The concept needs the athlete to be 'bounced back' for the next day's workout, in that the subsequent workout must push the limit. On the third day, it is all you can do to finish the endurance ride.

In the spirit of pushing the limit, it's all I can do to finish *each* of the rides (not just the last ride), but what does that have to do with TSS? Reaching the limit doesn't mean I've used up all my TSS for the day.

TSS has more to do with the amount of stress your body will need to recover from in the following hours/day(s), and in that sense, the very short L5 workout is less draining than the longer L4 or L3 workouts (for me anyway -- 840kJ expended during a 6x4 L5 workout vs. 1400 kJ expended during a 3x20 L4 workout). As I said above, L5 workouts definitely feel harder during and immediately after the workout, but they're not going to put me on the couch for a couple days like a very hard weekend ride would.

Is it possible that TSS is misleading me? I suppose, but that didn't seem to be the case all last winter/spring when I did my L4/L5/L4 routines. I think it's more likely that the traditional wisdom is based on methods developed before some of the current tools were available.

 

[Steve_B]

Is it possible that TSS is misleading me? I suppose, but that didn't seem to be the case all last winter/spring when I did my L4/L5/L4 routines. I think it's more likely that the traditional wisdom is based on methods developed before some of the current tools were available.

Keep in mind that TSS isn't just about the immediate moment, it's part of the big picture of your training over some period of days, months and weeks. So when viewed that way, the 4x5 minute L5 is going to affect you in some manner as will the 3x20 minute L4, but it's not so much how trashed you are when you get done with either as the training stress they introduce over the long term.

 

[frenchyge]

Keep in mind that TSS isn't just about the immediate moment, it's part of the big picture of your training over some period of days, months and weeks. So when viewed that way, the 4x5 minute L5 is going to affect you in some manner as will the 3x20 minute L4, but it's not so much how trashed you are when you get done with either as the training stress they introduce over the long term.

Edit: Are you supporting me, or correcting me? Because that sounds like what I meant in the paragraph above the one you quoted.

 

[Steve_B]

Edit: Are you supporting me, or correcting me? Because that sounds like what I meant in the paragraph above the one you quoted.

Sorry, I should have quoted the other guy. I guess I was just expanding upon what you wrote.