OS Licence

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

If however you incorporate features from someone else's
map, then your map becomes a 'derived work'. If that
other map is still in copyright then they may take action
against you.

Precisely. And it appears that the OSGB has decided that
if you use their positioning grid, you have derived the
work from them.

Positioning grid here seems to mean any variant of
latitude and longitude to the OSGB.

Huh?

The OS grid (AFAIK) predates 1953 and is therefore out of
copyright. Even if they had patented it the patent would
have lapsed by now. They might just conceivably have a
trademark on the term "National Grid" or somesuch, but using
a different name would get round that.
--
Dave

Mark South said:

Precisely. And it appears that the OSGB has decided that
if you use their positioning grid, you have derived the
work from them.

Positioning grid here seems to mean any variant of
latitude and longitude to the OSGB.

The grid is not copyright, it's a mathematical algorithm
that can't be copyrighted (in this country at least). A
piece of software that creates the grid could be copyrighted
since it's an implementation but not the grid itself.

There are plenty of other maps that use the Transverse
Mercator projection with the same well publicised
parameters as OSGB, and plenty of maps that have gridlines
at 1000m intervals neither of which are copyright. Harvey
Maps for instance.

You could create your own maps using the same grid and it
would be entirely your own work. Trailgauge does do this
in fact using the SRTM height data to draw contour lines
and overlaying any GPS waypoints or tracks that you have -
the end result is a completely copyright free map
providing that you haven't traced the tracklogs or
waypoints from an OS map !

--
Andrew Whaley, author of :-

Trailgauge - Shareware 3D GPS Mapping Software
Free Download from trailgauge.comtrailgauge.comOpen ↗

On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:40:58 +0100, Gordon <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Bernie Hughes <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Malcolm said:

No-one can deny your right to make a sketch map of a
road and the surrounding countryside, but as soon as you
try and fix the position of that road by reference to
known bases, such as the 1km grid, then this is surely
where the OS have stopped just "copying reality" and
have proceeded to make maps that are not only accurate
in themselves but are correctly scaled and linked to a
known baseline and to other maps, etc., and have spent a
lot of money doing so.

Yes, exactly. A lot of OUR money doing so.

Bernie

..and it would have been better spent doing what?

Waging war on Iraq! No, but really - the Grid isn't
copyright.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site:

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

Gordon said:

..and it would have been better spent doing what?

No argument with the spending. OS produce the best national
mapping I've ever seen, by a long way. But I do object to
the fact that quality has dropped over recent years, at the
same time as prices have risen. Any profit derived from OS
data should surely be reinvested into the mapping process,
to ensure that OS products stay the best in the world?
Instead, OS are being encouraged to behave as though it was
their own private money invested in the first place, and to
use our investment to make themselves a tidy profit.

Bernie

"Dave Pickles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

If however you incorporate features from someone else's
map, then your map becomes a 'derived work'. If that
other map is still in copyright then they may take
action against you.

Precisely. And it appears that the OSGB has decided that
if you use their positioning grid, you have derived the
work from them.

Positioning grid here seems to mean any variant of
latitude and longitude to the OSGB.

Huh?

Would you liek me to type it again? :-)

Quoted message said:

The OS grid (AFAIK) predates 1953 and is therefore out of
copyright. Even if they had patented it the patent would
have lapsed by now. They might just conceivably have a
trademark on the term "National Grid" or somesuch, but
using a different name would get round that.

A. I think you'll find Crown Copyright obeys different
rules.

B. The OSGB is bigger than you are.

C. Read the the words "...appears that the OSGB has
decided..." again.
--
"If the outdoors is a gym with dirt on the ground, or a
place to exercise, or to show off, and nothing more, you
don't get it."
- Gary D. Schwartz in rec.backcountry

Andrew Whaley said:

The grid is not copyright, it's a mathematical algorithm
that can't be copyrighted (in this country at least).

Really? That's very interesting.

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of other maps that use the Transverse
Mercator projection with the same well publicised
parameters as OSGB,

Is that all it is, a Transverse Mercator projection? I
thought it was in some way specific to the UK.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

"Andrew Whaley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

Precisely. And it appears that the OSGB has decided that
if you use their positioning grid, you have derived the
work from them.

Positioning grid here seems to mean any variant of
latitude and longitude to

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OSGB.

The grid is not copyright, it's a mathematical algorithm
that can't be copyrighted (in this country at least). A
piece of software that creates the grid could be
copyrighted since it's an implementation but not the
grid itself.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of other maps that use the Transverse
Mercator projection with the same well publicised
parameters as OSGB, and plenty of maps that have gridlines
at 1000m intervals neither of which are copyright. Harvey
Maps for instance.

Yes.

Quoted message said:

You could create your own maps using the same grid and it
would be entirely your own work. Trailgauge does do this
in fact using the SRTM height data to draw contour lines
and overlaying any GPS waypoints or tracks that you have -
the end result is a completely copyright free map
providing that you haven't traced the tracklogs or
waypoints from an OS map !

Yes.

And now I could try repeating what I have written and
repeated already: "And it appears that the OSGB has decided
that ...".

But it clearly isn't going to help anyone to understand what
the OSGB's official line is, because everyone seems to think
that the OSGB is the exceptional government department that
is run according to logical reasoning.

*SIGH*
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

Gordon said:

Making your own maps is an over-rated hobby, and is no
more than that
(IMO).

Very true Gordon, how astute of you!

A fun hobby though. Pity there's not much point anymore. If
only I'd had a GPS and a satellite network a few hundred
years ago...

Quoted message said:

It is like re-inventing the wheel without using Pi, but
finding your own relationship between spoke length and
circumference. (IMO)

Somebody already DID it! Buy and enjoy the beauty of maps.

Yes, they did it, but the problem is that they won't let
people use it on their websites!!! None of these problems
would exist if they were a little more tolerant of amateur
use of their maps. I'm not suggesting that they should give
all of their data away free, but what harm could a few
amateurs do by putting a few map scans on their websites?

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

The message <[email hidden]>
from Dave Pickles <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

The OS grid (AFAIK) predates 1953 and is therefore out of
copyright. Even if they had patented it the patent would
have lapsed by now. They might just conceivably have a
trademark on the term "National Grid" or somesuch, but
using a different name would get round that.

AFAICT The National Grid first appeared on military maps
in 1927. There were some cosmetic alterations before it
appeared on civilian maps either just before or just
after WW2.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

The OS grid (AFAIK) predates 1953 and is therefore out of
copyright. Even if they had patented it the patent would
have lapsed by now. They might just conceivably have a
trademark on the term "National Grid" or somesuch, but
using a different name would get round that.

A. I think you'll find Crown Copyright obeys different
rules.

Correct, the term is 50 years rather than the current 70 for
individual or corporate works. See:

ordnancesurvey.co.ukcopyriOpen ↗
ght/faq/#1

This document lists their trade names:

ordnancesurvey.co.ukcopyrighOpen ↗
t/productnamesandtrademarks.pdf

They don't claim 'National Grid' or anything like it.

Quoted message said:

B. The OSGB is bigger than you are.

That is indeed a problem.

Quoted message said:

C. Read the the words "...appears that the OSGB has
decided..." again.

Hmmm...
--
Dave

Quoted message said:

Is that all it is, a Transverse Mercator projection? I
thought it was in some way specific to the UK.

The parameters are specific to the UK, but the projection
system is used worldwide. Here's more information :-

geocities.comuk oOpen ↗
sbg36.html

--
Andrew Whaley, author of :-

Trailgauge - Shareware 3D GPS Mapping Software
Free Download from trailgauge.comtrailgauge.comOpen ↗

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew Whaley said:

The grid is not copyright, it's a mathematical algorithm
that can't be copyrighted (in this country at least).

Really? That's very interesting.

Algorithms can be patented in Europe, however, and it
would be worth knowing what exceptions apply for Crown
Copyright, which is not the same as the copyright that
applies to us humans.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are plenty of other maps that use the Transverse
Mercator projection with the same well publicised
parameters as OSGB,

Is that all it is, a Transverse Mercator projection? I
thought it was in some way specific to the UK.

It's both. The grid resulting from a TMP will depend on
other data. All TMPs are the same only for a perfectly
sphere. Those interesting "hill" thingies make it more
difficult to agree.
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

Quoted message said:

And now I could try repeating what I have written and
repeated already: "And it appears that the OSGB has
decided that ...".

But it clearly isn't going to help anyone to understand
what the OSGB's official line is, because everyone seems
to think that the OSGB is the exceptional government
department that is run according to logical reasoning.

So where does it say that any map using the OSGB36
projection is Crown Copyright ?

--
Andrew Whaley, author of :-

Trailgauge - Shareware 3D GPS Mapping Software
Free Download from trailgauge.comtrailgauge.comOpen ↗

Mark South said:

And now I could try repeating what I have written and
repeated already: "And it appears that the OSGB has
decided that ...".

Presumably you have evidence, eg letters from fat-a***d
lawyers? Care to share?
--
Dave

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

Somebody already DID it! Buy and enjoy the beauty
of maps.

Yes, they did it, but the problem is that they won't let
people use it on their websites!!! None of these problems
would exist if they were a little more tolerant of amateur
use of their maps. I'm not suggesting that they should give
all of their data away free, but what harm could a few
amateurs do by putting a few map scans on their websites?

As far as I am concerned we already paid for the Ordnance
Survey to do their stuff, so the maps should belong to us.
The cost of reproduction has to be paid for, but the data
should be free. Although I dislike much about the US, their
belief in what should be in the public domain

if they want to prosecute me, first they have to catch me.

"Andrew Whaley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And now I could try repeating what I have written and
repeated already: "And

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

appears that the OSGB has decided that ...".

But it clearly isn't going to help anyone to understand
what the OSGB's

official

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

line is, because everyone seems to think that the OSGB
is the exceptional government department that is run
according to logical reasoning.

So where does it say that any map using the OSGB36
projection is Crown Copyright ?

I have been saying that there is an apparent risk (based on
past performance) that the OSGB will invoke CC on something
regardless of the facts.

But your tone suggests that you still aren't listening....
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

Andrew Whaley said:

So where does it say that any map using the OSGB36
projection is Crown Copyright ?

Whoa! The 6-character reference above beginning with 'O' and
ending with '6' is a trademark of the organisation whose
common name is also a trademark.
--
Dave

"Dave Pickles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark South said:

And now I could try repeating what I have written and
repeated already: "And it appears that the OSGB has
decided that ...".

Presumably you have evidence, eg letters from fat-a***d
lawyers? Care to share?

That was then, this is now. The OSGB has already
demonstrated its willingness to throw its weight around. We
don't need any hypotheticals at this stage.

Mark South said:

Quoted message said:

So where does it say that any map using the OSGB36
projection is Crown Copyright ?

I have been saying that there is an apparent risk (based
on past performance) that the OSGB will invoke CC on
something regardless of the facts.

I tend to agree.

Quoted message said:

But your tone suggests that you still aren't listening....

Would having proof of your own "surveying" make any
difference? (i.e. GPS tracks and waypoints)

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

Mark South said:

But your tone suggests that you still aren't listening....

I'm listening and I've previously been on the receiving end
of the OS legal department.

The grid is a mathematical fact of nature and not theirs to
own just as the positions of objects on the Earth's surface
are not theirs to own. Their implementation (i.e. a
published map) of those positions and the grid are theirs to
own and if you substantially copy them they are perfectly
entitled to claim infringement of copyright.

I have a particular interest in this subject so if you have
seen something that claims ownership of the grid system
please let me know.

--
Andrew Whaley, author of :-

Trailgauge - Shareware 3D GPS Mapping Software
Free Download from trailgauge.comtrailgauge.comOpen ↗