OT: Another speed limit competitor

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:37:52 -0000, "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> said in <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/22.htm#213
While it stresses a preference for off-street parking, which I agree with,
it does NOT say that parking on the road is an offence. If it were an
offence, the HC wouldn't, presumably, give suggestions and directions on how
and where to park on the road.
Unless you can prove otherwise.

Will you accept a photocopy of a ticket for obstructing the highway
while parked in a position that was (then and I believe still now)
subject to no parking restrictions? I'm sure I still have that
somewhere, although it was nearly twenty years ago.

Section 137 of the Highways Act, I believe, as recently amended to
extend to the officers and directors of companies where it can be
proven that the obstruction is committed with their connivance or
neglect.

Any minute now Tony Raven will be along with the full text...

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

David Martin said:

The road is probably in public ownership or someone has managed to keep
a lid on the can of worms.

That same lid is presumably nailed down tight in Edinburgh! ;-)

Jon

you know? said:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:37:52 -0000, "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> said in <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/22.htm#213
While it stresses a preference for off-street parking, which I agree with,
it does NOT say that parking on the road is an offence. If it were an
offence, the HC wouldn't, presumably, give suggestions and directions on how
and where to park on the road.
Unless you can prove otherwise.

Will you accept a photocopy of a ticket for obstructing the highway
while parked in a position that was (then and I believe still now)
subject to no parking restrictions?

Of course not, that's a ticket for obstructing the highway, it's not a
ticket for illegally parking, there is a difference, and I see no
problem with the idea that you can still obstruct a highway even if
there are no parking restrictions in place on that piece of road - the
most easily seen example would be where the other side of the road is
coned off.

That doesn't make it a parking offence, the legality of parking on a
particular piece of road is simply not a defence to obstructing the
highway.

Jim.

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:37:52 -0000, "Paul - [censored]"
<[email hidden]> said in <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/22.htm#213
While it stresses a preference for off-street parking, which I agree
with, it does NOT say that parking on the road is an offence. If it
were an offence, the HC wouldn't, presumably, give suggestions and
directions on how and where to park on the road.
Unless you can prove otherwise.

Will you accept a photocopy of a ticket for obstructing the highway
while parked in a position that was (then and I believe still now)
subject to no parking restrictions?

Nope. Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Quoted message said:

Section 137 of the Highways Act, I believe, as recently amended to
extend to the officers and directors of companies where it can be
proven that the obstruction is committed with their connivance or
neglect.

We weren't talking about obstructing the highway, just parking on it.

Parking, to me, means leaving a vehicle in such a way that it causes no
obstruction to any other road user. If you got 'done' for obstruction, then
you weren't parked correctly. This doesn't mean parking is illegal at all.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Paul - censored said:

We weren't talking about obstructing the highway, just parking on it.

Parking, to me, means leaving a vehicle in such a way that it causes no
obstruction to any other road user. If you got 'done' for obstruction, then
you weren't parked correctly. This doesn't mean parking is illegal at all.

If it can be deemed to be an obstruction then it is illegal. It is not
a defence (read the act) for you to claim that it was causing no more
obstruction than the vehicle it was parked next to. If it is on the
carriageway and impedes the flow of traffic then it is an obstruction.
Most on-street parking in residential streets is probably illegal.

cf. discussion about the legality of riding a recumbent at night. It is
a law more often observed in the breach.

...d

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Most on-street parking in residential streets is probably illegal.

Emergency vehicles were already finding it difficult to negotiate many
Leicester streets and when they obtained larger ambulances and fire engines
it became worse but nothing is done.

--
Pete
http:[email hidden]/Stuff

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Most on-street parking in residential streets is probably illegal.

Emergency vehicles were already finding it difficult to negotiate many
Leicester streets and when they obtained larger ambulances and fire engines
it became worse but nothing is done.

--
Pete
http:[email hidden]/Stuff

David Martin came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

We weren't talking about obstructing the highway, just parking on it.

Parking, to me, means leaving a vehicle in such a way that it causes no
obstruction to any other road user. If you got 'done' for obstruction,
then you weren't parked correctly. This doesn't mean parking is illegal
at all.

If it can be deemed to be an obstruction then it is illegal.

Which still doesn't make parking illegal ...

Quoted message said:

It is not
a defence (read the act) for you to claim that it was causing no more
obstruction than the vehicle it was parked next to.

I didn't say or imply it was ...

Quoted message said:

If it is on the
carriageway and impedes the flow of traffic then it is an obstruction.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

Most on-street parking in residential streets is probably illegal.

Probably isn't always.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Peter B said:

Emergency vehicles were already finding it difficult to negotiate many
Leicester streets and when they obtained larger ambulances and fire engines
it became worse but nothing is done.

It will be after the next time a Councillor needs to be rushed to hospital.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 09:55:01
GMT:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While it stresses a preference for off-street parking, which I agree with,
it does NOT say that parking on the road is an offence. If it were an
offence, the HC wouldn't, presumably, give suggestions and directions on how
and where to park on the road.
Unless you can prove otherwise.

Will you accept a photocopy of a ticket for obstructing the highway
while parked in a position that was (then and I believe still now)
subject to no parking restrictions?

Quoted message said:

Of course not, that's a ticket for obstructing the highway, it's not a
ticket for illegally parking, there is a difference, and I see no
problem with the idea that you can still obstruct a highway even if
there are no parking restrictions in place on that piece of road - the
most easily seen example would be where the other side of the road is
coned off.

The point is, any vehicle parked on any highway at any time, legally
or no, can be ticketed for obstruction. Semantic quibbling apart,
that was the original suggestion, and I support it per my own
experience.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:

Quoted message said:

Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:

"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 18:43:05 -0000:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it can be deemed to be an obstruction then it is illegal.

Which still doesn't make parking illegal ...

Parking is obstructing the highway. Obstructing the highway is
illegal. Both these are documented facts. But do feel free to try
word games if caught: "No, your honour, I was not stationary, I was
parked". Might not be entirely effective, but be sure to report back
(I didn't bother to test this approach, feeling that paying the twelve
quid was probably cheaper in the long run).

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:

Quoted message said:

Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:

"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.

Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test if it
were illegal.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Paul - censored said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:

Quoted message said:

Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:

"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.

Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test
if it were illegal.

The driving test includes (or included, when I did it), a "three-point
turn". This is illegal in certain circumstances. Your argument holds
no water.

R.

in message <[email hidden]>, Paul - [censored]

(') said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:

Quoted message said:

Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:

"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.

Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test
if it were illegal.

Actually, /in/ /England/, it is not an established point of law that
using any motor vehicle on any highway is /ever/ legal. The issue came
up in a case in the 1960s and the judge refused to rule, on the grounds
that as far as he could see it wasn't legal but that he didn't want to
be responsible for the chaos that would ensue if he ruled that.

It is legal to use a motor vehicle on the roads of Scotland and, I
believe, Northern Ireland, provided that it is properly licensed and
insured, meets the appropriate construction and use regulations, the
driver is sober and holds the appropriate licences, and so on.

The law is much odder and less straightforward than most people believe.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
granted to transfer this message via UUCP or NNTP and to store it
for the purpose of archiving or further transfer. Permission is
explicitly denied to use this message as part of a 'Web Forum', or
to transfer it by HTTP.

Paul - censored said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:

Quoted message said:

Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:

"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.

Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test if it
were illegal.

One would presume that the driving test covers more than just driving
along the highway. It also includes parking in non-highway situations.

...d

In article said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg

Quoted message said:

Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:
"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.
Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test if it
were illegal.

My understanding is that causing an obstruction of any sort, including
by parking, is an offence, but it is a statutory defence to show that
the obstruction was reasonable. In the same sort of way, not producing a
driving licence when asked is an offence, but it is a statutory defence
to have produced it at a police station within seven days.

Richard came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
<[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:

> Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:

"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.

Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test
if it were illegal.

The driving test includes (or included, when I did it), a "three-point
turn". This is illegal in certain circumstances. Your argument holds
no water.

"In some circumstances".

It's also illegal to ride a bike 'in some circumstances'.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Alan Braggins came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

In article said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

"Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg

> Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking

Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:
"Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.
Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test
if it were illegal.

My understanding is that causing an obstruction of any sort, including
by parking, is an offence,

I quite agree, but that still doesn't make parking illegal. Parking is not
necessarily causing an obstruction.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

Paul - censored said:

Richard came up with the following;:

Quoted message said:

Paul - censored said:

Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:

> "Paul - [censored]" <[email hidden]> sd / msg
> <[email hidden]> dtd Thu, 24 Nov 2005 15:38:55 -0000:
>
>> Obstructing the highway is completely different to parking
>
>
>
> Which is why the post to which you originally replied said this:
>
> "Parking any vehicle on any highway is obstructing
> the highway and is a crime."

I disagree.

Instruction wouldn't be given on how to do it to pass the driving test
if it were illegal.

The driving test includes (or included, when I did it), a "three-point
turn". This is illegal in certain circumstances. Your argument holds
no water.

"In some circumstances".

It's also illegal to ride a bike 'in some circumstances'.

True. So what?

R.