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OT: The Great Ethanol Scam

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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21 April 2006
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24 April 2006
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Ranieri
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  1. I just saw another ethanol commercial and it [censored] me off. The latest
    energy bill calls for incorporating more "renewable fuel" (read ethanol)
    into our gasoline by a certain date. GM is also pushing it's Think Green/Go
    Yellow ad campaign to promote it's vehicles that use E85 - ethanol based
    fuel. Lots of happy images about running our cars on good old American-grown
    corn.

    Here's the problem: Ethanol, according to a Cornell study, is a net energy
    loser. Meaning it takes more energy to plant, fertilize, harvest, transport
    and convert corn to ethanol than the ethanol yields. A later study,
    performed by a paid consultant to the ethanol industry, claims that using
    optimal techniques we can squeeze a slight net energy gain out of ethanol.

    So why bother? One answer is that ADM (Archer Daniels Midland) is a huge
    political contributor to both parties. ADM also controls aproximately half
    of the ethanol production in the US. As a further favor to ADM, we have a
    tariff on the order of 54 cents per gallon on imported ethanol. So, in
    essence, our politicians have given ADM a tax-subsidized, government
    mandated market that provides little to no benefit in terms of energy
    independence.

    So next time you see a feel-good renewable fuel commercial - see it for what
    it really is: a big chunk of political pork handed out to a
    mega-corporation.

    And that's all I have to say about that.

  2. "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I just saw another ethanol commercial and it [censored] me off. The latest
    energy bill calls for incorporating more "renewable fuel" (read
    ethanol) into our gasoline by a certain date. GM is also pushing it's
    Think Green/Go Yellow ad campaign to promote it's vehicles that use
    E85 - ethanol based fuel. Lots of happy images about running our cars
    on good old American-grown corn.

    Here's the problem: Ethanol, according to a Cornell study, is a net
    energy loser. Meaning it takes more energy to plant, fertilize,
    harvest, transport and convert corn to ethanol than the ethanol
    yields. A later study, performed by a paid consultant to the ethanol
    industry, claims that using optimal techniques we can squeeze a slight
    net energy gain out of ethanol.

    So why bother? One answer is that ADM (Archer Daniels Midland) is a
    huge political contributor to both parties. ADM also controls
    aproximately half of the ethanol production in the US. As a further
    favor to ADM, we have a tariff on the order of 54 cents per gallon on
    imported ethanol. So, in essence, our politicians have given ADM a
    tax-subsidized, government mandated market that provides little to no
    benefit in terms of energy independence.

    So next time you see a feel-good renewable fuel commercial - see it
    for what it really is: a big chunk of political pork handed out to a
    mega-corporation.

    And that's all I have to say about that.

    There was a piece on the radio one day - last week, I think - about
    corn. Apparently corn is produced in such quantity and receives such
    government subsidies that it's ridiculously cheap to buy. The costs of
    producing you mention are right - it costs more to produce than they can
    sell it for, which is why it's subsidized, but if the free market was
    allowed to work, we'd have a lot less corn and it would cost more, and
    probably a lot less high fructose corn syrup in our foods as well. I
    don't think you can stop just looking at Ethanol, although I agree that
    ADM and similar stand to make out well because they have a cheap raw
    material and can mark it up a great deal.

    The piece on the radio was from a guy hawking his new book on the
    subject of the "corn economy" or words to that effect and it was very
    interesting - I've never really thought much about farm subsidies
    before. The subsidies get the whole supply-and-demand thing out of
    whack. I think the guy on the radio said 20% of our petroleum
    consumption goes into making fertilizer. Back in the day, the cows ate
    the parts of the corn we didn't want and their manure fertilized the
    ground and that was that.

    And, like you said, it all goes back to politics and who gives money to
    the candidates. I'd love to see all campaign contributions eliminated
    and have public funding of elections. It may not have made sense a
    couple of hundred years ago but I'd vote for it now. Money is the root
    of all evil, they say ...

    -S-
    http://www.kbnj.com

  3. Well you are very ignorant. You seem to be ignoring the fact that this
    corn by-product is already being produced. So it may cost more to
    produce, but it is already being made and disposed of, so
    environmentally it does make perfect sense.


  4. Quoted message said:

    Here's the problem: Ethanol, according to a Cornell study, is a net energy
    loser. Meaning it takes more energy to plant, fertilize, harvest, transport
    and convert corn to ethanol than the ethanol yields.

    So is meat. Who cares.

  5. Steve Freides said:


    There was a piece on the radio one day - last week, I think - about
    corn. Apparently corn is produced in such quantity and receives
    such government subsidies that it's ridiculously cheap to buy. The
    costs of producing you mention are right - it costs more to produce
    than they can sell it for, which is why it's subsidized, but if the
    free market was allowed to work, we'd have a lot less corn and it
    would cost more, and probably a lot less high fructose corn syrup in
    our foods as well. I don't think you can stop just looking at
    Ethanol, although I agree that ADM and similar stand to make out
    well because they have a cheap raw material and can mark it up a
    great deal.

    Ask any economics professor about farmers and he or she will tell you
    that for some reason the first world governments absolutely love those
    guys. Pretty much the entire first world heavily subsidizes
    agriculture, apparently the public sees some sort of hidden merit in
    this profession.

    You can't hardly blame ADM (and the soft drink guys) for taking
    advantage of government subsidies.

    Quoted message said:

    The piece on the radio was from a guy hawking his new book on the
    subject of the "corn economy" or words to that effect and it was
    very interesting - I've never really thought much about farm
    subsidies before. The subsidies get the whole supply-and-demand
    thing out of whack. I think the guy on the radio said 20% of our
    petroleum consumption goes into making fertilizer. Back in the day,
    the cows ate the parts of the corn we didn't want and their manure
    fertilized the ground and that was that.

    This is why you shouldn't be able to get a high school diploma without
    at least a basic understanding of economics. If more people
    understood economics then politicians couldn't get away with this sort
    of thing.

    Quoted message said:

    And, like you said, it all goes back to politics and who gives money
    to the candidates. I'd love to see all campaign contributions
    eliminated and have public funding of elections. It may not have
    made sense a couple of hundred years ago but I'd vote for it now.
    Money is the root of all evil, they say ...

    Geez, this is almost precisely what I mean by people not understanding
    economics. Money is just a handy medium of exchange. If you took
    money out of the election process then that would simply mean that
    candidates with friends in the media, or with supporters with plenty
    of free time on their hands would have a huge advantage. Campaigning,
    especially on a national scale, takes a huge amount of effort that
    must be financed somehow.

    Sure, the public could simply pay all expenses for every candidate,
    but then you run into the same problem that we have on MFW. There's
    plenty of good information on MFW, but you have to wade through a lot
    of [censored] to get to it. If every loon with a platform could run for
    office and have the taxpayer pick up the tab then we would end up with
    a whole lot of truly ridiculous (but still expensive) political
    campaigns. I for one am not in the slightest bit interested in
    picking up the tab so that folks like TBR can run for president.

    Besides, ADM isn't really to blame for our current farm subsidies,
    ADM's involvement is merely part of the market reaction to a mistake
    made quite a while ago. The roots of our corn subsidies lie in the
    government trying to increase production for sale to the Soviet Union
    in the 70s. You can blame "big business" if you want, but that
    doesn't make it ADM's fault.

    Jason

  6. "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, ADM isn't really to blame for our current farm subsidies,
    ADM's involvement is merely part of the market reaction to a mistake
    made quite a while ago. The roots of our corn subsidies lie in the
    government trying to increase production for sale to the Soviet Union
    in the 70s. You can blame "big business" if you want, but that
    doesn't make it ADM's fault.

    Actually the ethanol subsidies are a different issue than the farm subsidies
    to which we've grown so accustomed. If you have some time and want to get
    [censored], here's a report from the Cato Institute.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

  7. Ranieri' nah said:

    "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, ADM isn't really to blame for our current farm subsidies,
    ADM's involvement is merely part of the market reaction to a mistake
    made quite a while ago. The roots of our corn subsidies lie in the
    government trying to increase production for sale to the Soviet Union
    in the 70s. You can blame "big business" if you want, but that
    doesn't make it ADM's fault.

    Actually the ethanol subsidies are a different issue than the farm
    subsidies to which we've grown so accustomed. If you have some time
    and want to get [censored], here's a report from the Cato Institute.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

    Yeah, I realize that ethanol is a bit of a special case. I actually
    worked for a while for an ethanol producer 🙂. The company actually
    made french fries, but there is a lot of high starch content waste in
    making french fries, and the government was basically throwing money
    at this sector. Sure, making ethanol wasn't profitable without the
    subsidies, and it was unlikely to ever become profitable, but it was
    an issue that makes lots of numbskulls feel like they are doing
    something for the environment, or for reducing our reliance on foreign
    oil, or whatever. So apparently the politicos think that its money
    well spent.

    For the most part, however, it's basically the same old stupidity. A
    whole group of people with little grasp of economics basically have
    decided that burning gasoline is evil. The problem is that politics
    is a horrible way to solve this sort of problem. Politicians will
    basically never solve a problem if they can get away with merely
    appearing to be working on a problem 🙂.

    The market has all sorts of incentives to develop alternatives to
    gasoline, but instead of simply letting the eggheads look at
    alternatives that are likely to provide competitive substitutes the
    government is pushing money into those areas that it *wishes* would
    work. Subsidies are stupid. Heck, if the government really wants to
    change the fuel we use the way to do so would be to raise taxes on
    gasoline until the market could come up with alternatives that could
    compete at the new higher price.

    Jason

  8. On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:03:37 -0500, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in
    misc.fitness.weights:

    Quoted message said:


    "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, ADM isn't really to blame for our current farm subsidies,
    ADM's involvement is merely part of the market reaction to a mistake
    made quite a while ago. The roots of our corn subsidies lie in the
    government trying to increase production for sale to the Soviet Union
    in the 70s. You can blame "big business" if you want, but that
    doesn't make it ADM's fault.

    Actually the ethanol subsidies are a different issue than the farm subsidies
    to which we've grown so accustomed. If you have some time and want to get
    [censored], here's a report from the Cato Institute.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

    http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/14402479.htm

    Booming ethanol plants get large state subsidies
    Minnesota still hands over $26 million a year to industry 'drowning in
    profits'
    BY TOM WEBB
    Pioneer Press
    Ethanol was just a 98-pound weakling in the late 1980s, when Minnesota
    officials first decided to muscle it up into a strong and prosperous
    industry.

    Today ethanol is booming as oil prices soar, yet Minnesota taxpayers
    still are priming the pump. Taxpayers continue to be billed $26
    million a year to subsidize 11 privately owned ethanol plants that are
    now profitable beyond anyone's dreams.

    Purdue University economist Wally Tyner calculates that at today's
    fuel prices, even an ethanol plant costing $100 million can be fully
    paid off in less than a year. "They're hugely profitable, that's why
    so many of them are being built," Tyner said.

    Yet Minnesotans are funding ethanol subsidies even beyond that. Four
    times a year, the state sends checks to the farmers who own the 11
    plants. The next payday arrives in May, when another $4.3 million will
    be paid, plus another $2.3 million in IOUs the state promises to pay
    later.

    "The industry itself is basically drowning in profits right now, which
    I'm happy for, but why would we want to send them (more subsidies)?"
    said ex-farmer Alan Roebke of Chaska, a critic of current farm
    policies. "It's absolutely ridiculous."

    Some corn growers don't agree. Gerald Tumbleson, a Martin County
    farmer who has invested in three ethanol plants, has seen benefits
    sprout across rural Minnesota as ethanol plants generate sales, jobs,
    energy and optimism.

    "For every $30 million invested, they got back $400 million" worth of
    economic activity in rural Minnesota, Tumbleson said. "It was one of
    the best investments that Minnesota ever made."

    DEMAND IS FEVERISH

    In the past year, almost everything has changed for ethanol. Soaring
    gasoline prices have sent ethanol prices skyrocketing. Demand for new
    plants is so feverish that construction firms are booked until 2008.
    Refiners are clamoring for the corn-based fuel, amid worries of an
    ethanol shortage. But none of that has stopped the parade of state
    subsidy checks.

    Back in 2003, the Legislature did consider scrapping the state subsidy
    because ethanol, even then, was solidly profitable. But the corn
    farmers who owned the plants objected. The program stayed.

    But back then, oil was under $30 a barrel. Today it has soared to $75
    a barrel. Yet now there's virtual silence at the Minnesota Capitol
    about reworking the ethanol producer payment.

    "The Minnesota Legislature made a commitment, and they intend to keep
    it," said Jim Boerboom, assistant commissioner of agriculture.

    But did anyone think that prices for oil would climb so high?

    "No, absolutely not," Boerboom said.

    Over the years, $274 million in payments have been sent to Minnesota
    ethanol producers, along with $45 million in IOUs. On every gallon of
    ethanol, the state pays producers 20 cents — 13 cents quarterly, and 7
    cents more in deferred payments — up to 15 million gallons per
    producer.

    Minnesota is now the nation's No. 3 ethanol producer, with 16 plants
    making 550 million gallons of ethanol a year.

    "Without those producer payments, we probably still wouldn't have
    much, if any, ethanol production in the state," said Ralph Groschen of
    the state Agriculture Department.

    SHUNNED IN '80s

    The roots of the subsidy program go back to the ruinous farm crisis of
    the mid-1980s, when corn-based ethanol offered one glimmer of hope.
    Officials tried, but no corporation was interested back then in
    building an ethanol plant in Minnesota. Battered rural banks couldn't
    take the risk, either.

    "We were losing thousands of farmers a year, and a good two-thirds of
    our corn was exported, unfed and unprocessed, and Minnesota corn
    prices were among the lowest in the country," Groschen said. "Since
    the large corporations declined to build here, we helped farmers to
    build their own plants."

    The partnership worked like this: Once local farmers raised $10
    million in start-up money for a new plant, the state promised 10 years
    of payments. A plant that produced up to 15 million gallons of ethanol
    a year could collect a maximum of $3 million a year.

    "When these plants went up in these small towns, my goodness, it was
    really a shot in the arm for these rural communities," Groschen said.
    And when the first plants proved profitable, farm cooperatives usually
    built a second plant, and sometimes a third.

    Several Minnesota plants have now collected more than $25 million each
    through the program. Roebke, a former Minnesota ethanol plant investor
    himself, does the math.

    "FIRST PLANT IS FREE"

    'We basically give 'em the first plant for free," said Roebke, who now
    runs a Web site on farm and energy policy. "The second one, they'll
    have to pay for, but the first one is free."

    During the 1990s, when oil prices were mostly under $20 a barrel, the
    ethanol subsidy kept the industry profitable. So did the state
    requirement that every gallon of gasoline sold in Minnesota contain a
    10 percent ethanol blend.

    Minnesota's producer payment is set to expire at the end of this
    decade. Gov. Tim Pawlenty, a Republican, proposed ending it in 2003
    during the state budget crisis, but rural Republicans strongly
    objected. The Legislature settled for spreading out the payments
    instead.

    "The rural areas out there are still politically quite powerful, and
    they do continue to lean Republican," said David Strom, president of
    the Minnesota Taxpayers League and a foe of all ethanol subsidies.
    "It's a very powerful and important Republican constituency."

    MARKET COULD CRASH

    Vern Eidman, a biofuels specialist at the University of Minnesota, has
    talked to farmers who worry that the volatile commodity markets could
    crash as quickly as they soared.

    "They clearly understand subsidies aren't needed at the current time,
    but what they're worried about is, what will happen if they're taken
    away and then they're needed again," Eidman said. "This is a commodity
    business."

    To date there's been very little grumbling about ethanol subsidies as
    gasoline nears $3 a gallon, but that may be changing. The Wall Street
    Journal recently editorialized against the "heavily subsidized
    domestic ethanol industry that is getting rich off U.S. drivers."

    And economists like Purdue's Tyner think a rewrite of ethanol
    subsidies makes sense, so that farmer-owners are protected during
    times of hardship, not lavishly rewarded during booms.

    U.S. taxpayers will pay over $2 billion in federal ethanol subsidies
    this year, and he doesn't blame farmers for taking the money.

    "If I gave you the choice of, 'Would you like $2 billion or not,' what
    would you say?" he asked. "But is it good public policy?"

    Tom Webb can be reached at [email hidden] or 651-228-5428.

    $26 million

    Amount Minnesota taxpayers pay each year to subsidize ethanol
    production

    $1.10

    Typical cost of producing a gallon of ethanol in Minnesota

    $2.50

    Recent selling price per gallon for Minnesota-produced ethanol

    20 cents

    State subsidy on every gallon of ethanol produced, up to 15 million
    gallons

  9. "John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:03:37 -0500, "Ranieri" <nah> wrote in
    misc.fitness.weights:

    Quoted message said:


    "Jason Earl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

    Quoted message said:

    Besides, ADM isn't really to blame for our current farm subsidies,
    ADM's involvement is merely part of the market reaction to a mistake
    made quite a while ago. The roots of our corn subsidies lie in the
    government trying to increase production for sale to the Soviet Union
    in the 70s. You can blame "big business" if you want, but that
    doesn't make it ADM's fault.

    Actually the ethanol subsidies are a different issue than the farm
    subsidies
    to which we've grown so accustomed. If you have some time and want to get
    [censored], here's a report from the Cato Institute.

    http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-241.html

    http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/14402479.htm

    Booming ethanol plants get large state subsidies
    Minnesota still hands over $26 million a year to industry 'drowning in
    profits'
    BY TOM WEBB
    Pioneer Press
    Ethanol was just a 98-pound weakling in the late 1980s, when Minnesota
    officials first decided to muscle it up into a strong and prosperous
    industry.

    Today ethanol is booming as oil prices soar, yet Minnesota taxpayers
    still are priming the pump. Taxpayers continue to be billed $26
    million a year to subsidize 11 privately owned ethanol plants that are
    now profitable beyond anyone's dreams.

    Purdue University economist Wally Tyner calculates that at today's
    fuel prices, even an ethanol plant costing $100 million can be fully
    paid off in less than a year. "They're hugely profitable, that's why
    so many of them are being built," Tyner said.

    Yet Minnesotans are funding ethanol subsidies even beyond that. Four
    times a year, the state sends checks to the farmers who own the 11
    plants. The next payday arrives in May, when another $4.3 million will
    be paid, plus another $2.3 million in IOUs the state promises to pay
    later.

    "The industry itself is basically drowning in profits right now, which
    I'm happy for, but why would we want to send them (more subsidies)?"
    said ex-farmer Alan Roebke of Chaska, a critic of current farm
    policies. "It's absolutely ridiculous."

    Some corn growers don't agree. Gerald Tumbleson, a Martin County
    farmer who has invested in three ethanol plants, has seen benefits
    sprout across rural Minnesota as ethanol plants generate sales, jobs,
    energy and optimism.

    "For every $30 million invested, they got back $400 million" worth of
    economic activity in rural Minnesota, Tumbleson said. "It was one of
    the best investments that Minnesota ever made."

    DEMAND IS FEVERISH

    In the past year, almost everything has changed for ethanol. Soaring
    gasoline prices have sent ethanol prices skyrocketing. Demand for new
    plants is so feverish that construction firms are booked until 2008.
    Refiners are clamoring for the corn-based fuel, amid worries of an
    ethanol shortage. But none of that has stopped the parade of state
    subsidy checks.

    Back in 2003, the Legislature did consider scrapping the state subsidy
    because ethanol, even then, was solidly profitable. But the corn
    farmers who owned the plants objected. The program stayed.

    But back then, oil was under $30 a barrel. Today it has soared to $75
    a barrel. Yet now there's virtual silence at the Minnesota Capitol
    about reworking the ethanol producer payment.

    "The Minnesota Legislature made a commitment, and they intend to keep
    it," said Jim Boerboom, assistant commissioner of agriculture.

    But did anyone think that prices for oil would climb so high?

    "No, absolutely not," Boerboom said.

    Over the years, $274 million in payments have been sent to Minnesota
    ethanol producers, along with $45 million in IOUs. On every gallon of
    ethanol, the state pays producers 20 cents - 13 cents quarterly, and 7
    cents more in deferred payments - up to 15 million gallons per
    producer.

    Minnesota is now the nation's No. 3 ethanol producer, with 16 plants
    making 550 million gallons of ethanol a year.

    "Without those producer payments, we probably still wouldn't have
    much, if any, ethanol production in the state," said Ralph Groschen of
    the state Agriculture Department.

    SHUNNED IN '80s

    The roots of the subsidy program go back to the ruinous farm crisis of
    the mid-1980s, when corn-based ethanol offered one glimmer of hope.
    Officials tried, but no corporation was interested back then in
    building an ethanol plant in Minnesota. Battered rural banks couldn't
    take the risk, either.

    "We were losing thousands of farmers a year, and a good two-thirds of
    our corn was exported, unfed and unprocessed, and Minnesota corn
    prices were among the lowest in the country," Groschen said. "Since
    the large corporations declined to build here, we helped farmers to
    build their own plants."

    The partnership worked like this: Once local farmers raised $10
    million in start-up money for a new plant, the state promised 10 years
    of payments. A plant that produced up to 15 million gallons of ethanol
    a year could collect a maximum of $3 million a year.

    "When these plants went up in these small towns, my goodness, it was
    really a shot in the arm for these rural communities," Groschen said.
    And when the first plants proved profitable, farm cooperatives usually
    built a second plant, and sometimes a third.

    Several Minnesota plants have now collected more than $25 million each
    through the program. Roebke, a former Minnesota ethanol plant investor
    himself, does the math.

    "FIRST PLANT IS FREE"

    'We basically give 'em the first plant for free," said Roebke, who now
    runs a Web site on farm and energy policy. "The second one, they'll
    have to pay for, but the first one is free."

    During the 1990s, when oil prices were mostly under $20 a barrel, the
    ethanol subsidy kept the industry profitable. So did the state
    requirement that every gallon of gasoline sold in Minnesota contain a
    10 percent ethanol blend.

    Minnesota's producer payment is set to expire at the end of this
    decade. Gov. Tim Pawlenty, a Republican, proposed ending it in 2003
    during the state budget crisis, but rural Republicans strongly
    objected. The Legislature settled for spreading out the payments
    instead.

    "The rural areas out there are still politically quite powerful, and
    they do continue to lean Republican," said David Strom, president of
    the Minnesota Taxpayers League and a foe of all ethanol subsidies.
    "It's a very powerful and important Republican constituency."

    MARKET COULD CRASH

    Vern Eidman, a biofuels specialist at the University of Minnesota, has
    talked to farmers who worry that the volatile commodity markets could
    crash as quickly as they soared.

    "They clearly understand subsidies aren't needed at the current time,
    but what they're worried about is, what will happen if they're taken
    away and then they're needed again," Eidman said. "This is a commodity
    business."

    To date there's been very little grumbling about ethanol subsidies as
    gasoline nears $3 a gallon, but that may be changing. The Wall Street
    Journal recently editorialized against the "heavily subsidized
    domestic ethanol industry that is getting rich off U.S. drivers."

    And economists like Purdue's Tyner think a rewrite of ethanol
    subsidies makes sense, so that farmer-owners are protected during
    times of hardship, not lavishly rewarded during booms.

    U.S. taxpayers will pay over $2 billion in federal ethanol subsidies
    this year, and he doesn't blame farmers for taking the money.

    "If I gave you the choice of, 'Would you like $2 billion or not,' what
    would you say?" he asked. "But is it good public policy?"

    Tom Webb can be reached at [email hidden] or 651-228-5428.

    $26 million

    Amount Minnesota taxpayers pay each year to subsidize ethanol
    production

    $1.10

    Typical cost of producing a gallon of ethanol in Minnesota

    $2.50

    Recent selling price per gallon for Minnesota-produced ethanol

    20 cents

    State subsidy on every gallon of ethanol produced, up to 15 million
    gallons

    And the kicker - despite all the taxpayer money being given away, Ethanol
    isn't doing a damn thing to reduce fossil fuel consumption.
    http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

    It'd be cheaper and a better use of resources to do away with the present
    ethanol production program and just have taxpayers to pay a fee directly to
    the producers.

    Sonsabitches.

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