Paramount

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:07:57 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Since you repeatedly claim that walking is riskier than cycling, you
obviously fail on both counts.

Depends on the neighborhood. In some places, moving faster is lower
risk :-)

still me said:

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 21:07:57 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Since you repeatedly claim that walking is riskier than cycling, you
obviously fail on both counts.

Quoted message said:

Depends on the neighborhood. In some places, moving faster is lower
risk :-)

Well /that's/ true! Guess those "total population studies" take all factors
into account.

BS (ayyup)

On Jul 5, 9:01 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While helmets for drivers would be about as silly/useful as cycle
helmets, drivers, in sharp contrast to cyclists of N. America, have no
cultural expectation of helmet use. In fact, wearing a helmet while
driving would get one branded a loony. Cyclists can take advantage of
this unique cultural expectation, however bizarre it may be, for use
of shiny foam hat and receive arguably some marginal safety benefit.

Very true.

That said, should cyclists just roll over and perpetuate (or even
expand) this sort of social pressure for miniscule benefits and
probably larger societal costs (by discouraging people from cycling
due to a perception it's especially dangerous, like American football,
and sky diving, and auto racing, and war)?

I don't think so.

If people want to wear helmets while cycling, I say go for it, take
advantage of a bizarre cultural moment. But pushing helmet use on
others would be an odious thing imo even if helmets were clearly
beneficial (people have plenty to worry about themselves without
getting up in other peoples' bike business). And anyone who
consciously feels that wearing of the helmet makes them safer is
probably worse off than they would be without it.

Robert

Quoted message said:

If people want to wear helmets while cycling, I say go for it, take
advantage of a bizarre cultural moment. But pushing helmet use on
others would be an odious thing imo even if helmets were clearly
beneficial (people have plenty to worry about themselves without
getting up in other peoples' bike business).

Agreed. So why are many of the same people who are anti-lid also
anti-transfats and -smoking and -SUVs and -red ink on school papers
and -tug-of-war and -etc -etc -etc?!?

Quoted message said:

And anyone who
consciously feels that wearing of the helmet makes them safer is
probably worse off than they would be without it.

Silly. Wearing a helmet /does/ make one at least somewhat safer; however,
even if it didn't, one would hardly be "worse off" for using it. (Just
substitute "condom" for "helmet" and... never mind.)

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Bruce Gilbert" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Let's face it, brain injuries suck, helmets work. I had a few friends
from back then that are still staring at the walls because of crash
injured brains. The helmet argument stops the first time you have to
change an adult diaper...

Quoted message said:

Ah, must be time for the helmet rants. We haven't had one in a while.
(No) thanks for bringing this up.

Quoted message said:

The short answer is: it's a beer cooler. On your head. Designed for
impacts of about 10 mph. Faster than about 14 mph it's not very useful.

You don't hit the ground at 14 mph in a fall from a bicycle. But
you're right: if you run headfirst into something on your bicycle,
like a car or a tree, the helmet isn't going to help much.

As usual on this ng, people insist on seeing things as black or white
and therefore miss the truth.

who cares ? learn the hard way man.

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 11:55:31 +0930, Michael Warner <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

In my case, wearing a helmet is a balance between the slight possibility
that it might protect me in the remote chance that I crash, and the
certainty that the weight of the helmet will cause me neck and shoulder
pain.

Are you serious? I've never heard that one before.

Really? While "pain" is perhaps a strong word, discomfort from weight
is a big part of not wearing a helmet.

--
JT
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On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 20:09:01 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Michael Warner said:

Tim McNamara said:

In my case, wearing a helmet is a balance between the slight
possibility that it might protect me in the remote chance that I
crash, and the certainty that the weight of the helmet will cause me
neck and shoulder pain.

Are you serious? I've never heard that one before.

At least he admits it may protect him in a crash; that's more than the
average AHZ will allow!

It's remarkable that in this iteration of the helmet discussion you
are not even attempting to provide rationales for your point of view.

Most or all helmet skeptics have said that helmets can protect riders
from cuts and bruises to the head. Many say they might prevent more
serious injuries in certain situations (though, possibly exacerbating
them in other ways). But all or almost all have said these situations
in which helmets have use are rare in normal road riding -- rare for
the minor injuries like cuts and bruises and extremely rare for the
mor serious injuries.

This is the core of the argument that helmets are not very important
to cycling safety -- that cycling is not very dangerous.

And yet above you dismiss that by setting up a straw man.

Do you really not understand the argument laid out above? Or do you
think your comment is somehow clever and tricky so you can "win" an
argument?

--
JT
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On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:07:59 +0930, Michael Warner <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tim McNamara said:

Yes. Impinged nerve running down into my left shoulder. It gets
aggravated sometimes and wearing a helmet is one thing that does it
pretty regularly.

I'm sorry to hear it, but given the weight of a modern helmet compared
to your head, I'm skeptical.

Well it's "only" five or ten percent more weight for muscles of the
neck to support. If you had to walk around with a weight vest adding
that much more weight to your body, you wouldn't notice it all all,
right? Especially when leaned over. No problem.
--
JT
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Quoted message said:

On Jul 6, 9:19 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, Frank "I wuz a Perfessur" Krygowski is back. And he's the same
helmet-obsessed, arrogant, condescending, self-inflated gasbag and all-
around [censored] as always! :-((

Yes, I'm back. We did a six-week vacation in Europe with our Bike
Fridays, combining train travel and bike travel. It was fantastic.
Very educational, and lots of fun.

So, how's the part-time, discount bike repair business going?

Did you ever summon the cash and courage to confront JFT in New York?
Or did that manly threat of yours slip completely off your radar
screen? ;-)

Haha.

I wish he had the courage to post a picture of himself and his bike.
That would be a first step. For someone who rags all over other
people's equipment choices, it's only fair.
--
JT
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Ozark Bicycle said:

It's going great! Pays all the bills, let's me indulge my modest
consumer urges, *and*, I've lotsa time to ride whenever I like, since
I only work as many hours as I like, when I like. What's not to like?

Any photos of you riding we can see?
--
JT
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Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

If people want to wear helmets while cycling, I say go for it, take
advantage of a bizarre cultural moment. But pushing helmet use on
others would be an odious thing imo even if helmets were clearly
beneficial (people have plenty to worry about themselves without
getting up in other peoples' bike business).

Agreed. So why are many of the same people who are anti-lid also
anti-transfats and -smoking and -SUVs and -red ink on school papers
and -tug-of-war and -etc -etc -etc?!?

Quoted message said:

And anyone who
consciously feels that wearing of the helmet makes them safer is
probably worse off than they would be without it.

Silly. Wearing a helmet /does/ make one at least somewhat safer; however,
even if it didn't, one would hardly be "worse off" for using it. (Just
substitute "condom" for "helmet" and... never mind.)

Its not silly, it is call "risk compensation" - the cyclist takes more
chances because of a false belief in the extent of the foam hat to
protect his/her head.

The hypothesis of the greater effective head diameter from wearing a
foam hat leading to a greater severity of rotational head and neck
injuries should not be dismissed so readily.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 6, 9:19 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yep, Frank "I wuz a Perfessur" Krygowski is back. And he's the same
helmet-obsessed, arrogant, condescending, self-inflated gasbag and all-
around [censored] as always! :-((

Yes, I'm back. We did a six-week vacation in Europe with our Bike
Fridays, combining train travel and bike travel. It was fantastic.
Very educational, and lots of fun.

So, how's the part-time, discount bike repair business going?

Did you ever summon the cash and courage to confront JFT in New York?
Or did that manly threat of yours slip completely off your radar
screen? ;-)

Haha.

I wish he had the courage to post a picture of himself and his bike.
That would be a first step. For someone who rags all over other
people's equipment choices, it's only fair.

I will go first if that helps:
<http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/images/Sherman1.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Michael Warner said:

Tim McNamara said:

Yes. Impinged nerve running down into my left shoulder. It gets
aggravated sometimes and wearing a helmet is one thing that does it
pretty regularly.

I'm sorry to hear it, but given the weight of a modern helmet compared
to your head, I'm skeptical. My bet is that it's due to a different posture
or muscle tension when you wear a helmet - you're probably ducking into
the wind, unconsciously trying to minimize its extra wind resistance....

Would aero-bars be better here than hunching over drop bars?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Sornson said:

Wearing a helmet /does/ make one at least somewhat safer;

Which is a belief not an established fact. The facts are equivocal at
best whether your brain is safer if you ride a bike while wearing a
helmet.

Not only is there a lack of positive data as to whether helmets are
effective, there is also data that car drivers cut closer to cyclists
wearing helmets than to cyclists not wearing helmets. If this data is
in fact correct then this phenomenon would likely more than offset any
safety gains from wearing a helmet- since helmet wearers would be at
greater risk for being struck from behind by drivers.

My experience is that drivers treat me differently depending on how I am
dressed. If I am riding to work in street clothes, they are more
patient and give me more room. I don't get honked at or yelled at and
am treated like a legitimate road user. Wearing the "serious cyclist"
regalia of Lycra shorts and team jersey and helmet and all, I get honked
at, yelled at and treated much more rudely by drivers. As a result of
that experience, I think that it is possible that the research published
a couple of years ago showing that drivers tend to operate their
vehicles less safely when passing cyclists wearing helmets might be
correct.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Bill Sornson said:

Quoted message said:

If people want to wear helmets while cycling, I say go for it,
take advantage of a bizarre cultural moment. But pushing helmet
use on others would be an odious thing imo even if helmets were
clearly beneficial (people have plenty to worry about themselves
without getting up in other peoples' bike business).

Agreed. So why are many of the same people who are anti-lid also
anti-transfats and -smoking and -SUVs and -red ink on school papers
and -tug-of-war and -etc -etc -etc?!?

Quoted message said:

And anyone who consciously feels that wearing of the helmet makes
them safer is probably worse off than they would be without it.

Silly. Wearing a helmet /does/ make one at least somewhat safer;
however, even if it didn't, one would hardly be "worse off" for
using it. (Just substitute "condom" for "helmet" and... never
mind.)

Its not silly, it is call "risk compensation" - the cyclist takes
more chances because of a false belief in the extent of the foam hat
to protect his/her head.

I've never been convinced by the risk compensation argument. There may
be some individuals who react in this way to wearing the foam hat, but
from observation of cyclists I'd say that many of them are terrified
while riding on the street whether or not they are helmeted. They are
convinced that imminent death is upon them. Most of these folks do
their riding on the local trails (which IME are far more dangerous than
the streets, but are perceived by most as safer because there are no
cars).

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

If you had to walk around with a weight vest adding
that much more weight to your body, you wouldn't notice it all all,
right?

Of course I'd notice it initially, but not for long, and it wouldn't cause
any muscular or nerve problems.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Try to guess which helmet sells for $175, which for $85, and which
for $24:

Cheap helmets look like foam salad bowls, expensive helmets look like
birds of prey. They cost about the same to manufacture so to encourage
the punters to make more profit for the helmet company, the cheap
helmets are made to look dorky.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Really? While "pain" is perhaps a strong word, discomfort from weight
is a big part of not wearing a helmet.

It'd be interesting to conduct a blind trial to test whether most cyclists
really feel the extra weight, but I can't imagine how it could be done,
short of implanting weights inside the skull :-)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael Warner said:

Tim McNamara said:

Yes. Impinged nerve running down into my left shoulder. It gets
aggravated sometimes and wearing a helmet is one thing that does it
pretty regularly.

I'm sorry to hear it, but given the weight of a modern helmet
compared to your head, I'm skeptical. My bet is that it's due to a
different posture or muscle tension when you wear a helmet - you're
probably ducking into the wind, unconsciously trying to minimize its
extra wind resistance.

Hard to say why it causes pain, my current helmet is the lightest that I
could find and it's a little better but I still get more pain than if I
don't wear it. And since I don't see benefit in wearing a helmet and
have definite negative consequences, I often don't wear a helmet. I am
more likely to wear one when riding with friends since they tend to be
pro-helmet and I'd rather not waste riding time on the discussion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've got a bad disc in my lower back, another one in my neck, and
had my knee scoped a couple of years ago for a torn meniscus. I
suspect most of these problems are souvenirs of my Aikido days

And I thought aikido was one of the gentler, more flowing martial
arts! Think I'll stick with cycling :-)

Well, if you're good at it, Aikido *is* a more flowing martial art. But
it's not gentle- the locks and throws are designed to injure and
incapacitate. I've got a tape from a meeting of the US Aikido sensei in
Chicago about 15 years ago, it is amazing how smooth and fast those guys
are- Yamada Sensei in particular. I was neither smooth nor fast and
never was good at it- I was just big. I often ride by my old dojo
during class time and look in the windows with a bit of nostalgia.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bill Sornson said:

Michael Warner said:

Tim McNamara said:

In my case, wearing a helmet is a balance between the slight
possibility that it might protect me in the remote chance that I
crash, and the certainty that the weight of the helmet will cause
me neck and shoulder pain.

Are you serious? I've never heard that one before.

At least he admits it may protect him in a crash; that's more than
the average AHZ will allow!

Noting that I rather heavily qualified this, I can conceive of crashes
in which a helmet might help me, even though I am rarely riding within
those parameters.

Now, there was an incident in which I do think my helmet did help me. A
bit over four years ago I was knocked off my bike by a group of four
"youths" and assaulted (Cedar Lake Trail near downtown Minneapolis
between I394 and I94, for those of you familiar with the area; there was
a string of about five such incidents that summer). Broken tooth,
nondisplaced nose fracture, bruising over my kidneys and a smashed
helmet from them punching at my head once they had me down. I think
that a helmet absorbs a punch pretty well. So much for "Minnesota
nice," though.