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Cycling Equipment
Published
4 July 2007
Last activity
15 July 2007
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wishful thinker
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  1. Jay Beattie said:
    Quoted message said:

    I believe that if you could persuade your biomechanics specialists to
    look impartially at the current evidence, and examine the current
    state of the debate, they'd be much less pro-helmet.

    <snip>

    He has, particularly with rotational injury and helmets...

    That's good. But I'd be curious to hear what he thinks about the lack
    of demonstrable, large-population benefit.

    Quoted message said:

    He qualifies as an expert in court. Do you?

    I've been asked to do that on certain subjects, yes. I've also been
    asked to testify before a legislative committee on this issue.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you're going to take part in these discussions, you really should
    examine the evidence.

    I have. I just disagree with you and do not accept epidemiology as
    the be-all and end-all of a biomechanical inquiry -- or the more
    particularized inquire of whether I should wear a helmet.

    Well, let's be clear: the question of whether _you_ should wear one
    is, and should be, up to you.

    But you've gone significantly beyond that. You have advocated, or at
    least approved of, laws that forbid parents making that decision for
    their kids. You have stated disbelief that mandating helmets deter
    cycling. You have expressed approval for reducing cycling. And you
    have implied that because YOU are not concerned about the negative
    effects of helmet laws or promotion, that others should not discuss
    it. That's going a long way past personal choice, and exposing a lot
    of logically weak attitudes.

    Saying "I, Jay Beattie, like to wear a helmet, and I don't want to
    discuss the issue" is fine. But most of the stuff in your final
    paragraph (below) is weak at best, and some is a bit offensive.

    I'm not asking you to defend it, because you're clearly not
    interested. But if you want to move this beyond a hit-and-run post,
    we can begin with the difference between helmets' simple-model
    theoretical benefits, and the real-world observations that show no
    significant benefits.

    Quoted message said:

    A helmet
    does protect against certain injuries. That is a fact. Am I likely
    to suffer those injuries? Yes, because I have several times in the
    past. Am I part of the population that would benefit from a helmet?
    Yes. Do I need to wear one all the time. No. Do I take more risks
    when wearing a helmet? No, because I don't like hurting any other part
    of my body. Do I care about MHLs? No because they do not apply to me,
    except to my benefit. Do I care if MHLs reduce the number of
    cyclists? No, because there are too many cyclists who get in my way,
    and I like having the road to myself. Do I care if you wear a helmet.
    No. There you have it. EOM. -- Jay Beattie.

    - Frank Krygowski

  2. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    ...But when folks
    trained in the discipline see the misuse, they interpret it as a
    warning that the user probably isn't very expert in the topic.

    More likely, they wave the specialized jargon around in front of them
    like some kind of disinfectant spray to ward off any further
    intrusions from 'non-experts.'

    I'll grant you this: When a few people have spent years studying
    things like impulse and momentum or stress and strain, and they're in
    a technical discussion involving such concepts, it can be very
    annoying to have a cocksure no-nothing wander in and try to redefine
    fundamental terms. This is why 13-year-olds aren't usually allowed in
    research labs.

    Usenet runs by different rules, of course, and most technically
    trained people here are patient and kind to non-techies. But there
    are reasonable limits to that patience.

    - Frank Krygowski

    Dear Frank,

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    In fact, the 13-year-old is just pointing out this sort of thing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_force

    I should add that I foolishly forgot that Joe Riel addressed the point
    in his usual succinct fashion, clarifying what the 13-year-old was
    trying to say about the hammer and the pad:

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/b0d5b0fe160759dc

    Whether you want to call it peak force, average force, force of
    impulse, or anything else, the original point was that a helmet or a
    pad does indeed cushion the impact of a crash or a hammer.

    Some posters are so caught up in the discussion that they will seize
    on the admittedly confused original explanation of the hammer and the
    pad instead of addressing the obvious practical point.

    I suspect that this evasion is due to their reluctance to grant any
    value to helmets, but it makes them look either foolish, frightened,
    or unwilling to argue in good faith.

    Here's how I'd address the hammer and pad argument instead of
    quibbling about semantics.

    Yes, helmets can cushion impacts in crashes, just as pads cushion
    hammer blows. The peak force is reduced by being spread out over a
    longer time.

    But . . .

    Study after study shows that helmets fail to do what we wish they'd
    do. When mandatory bicycle helmet laws cause a huge, abrupt increase
    in helmet use, there is no apparent effect on the rate of serious head
    injuries and deaths. The hoped-for effect simply doesn't show up.

    (Smaller studies, usually comparing badly-chosen groups, _may_ show a
    helmet effect, but smaller studies are only useful as far as they
    predict what larger studies will show. In crude terms, rolling a
    double-six once is not going to be a useful guide to playing
    backgammon. To show just how badly designed and interpreted small
    studies can be, the most often cited study claiming that helmets
    dramatically reduced head injuries also inadvertently showed that
    helmets dramatically reduced leg injuries.)

    Various explanations have been offered for the helmet failure.

    Riders may be risk compensating, meaning that they automatically
    increase their risky behavior to maintain the same level of acceptable
    risk. The taxi driver study often mentioned in these threads showed
    that taxi drivers randomly assigned cars with and without ABS braking
    clearly drove faster and closer to other cars when they thought that
    they were protected by the ABS.

    While insisting that they certainly do no such thing, people will
    answer questions that show that they certainly do behave differently
    when they wear helmets. Posters here on RBT often expose this behavior
    by pointing out that other posters who deny risk-compensation
    nevertheless admit that they would ride more slowly and carefully (or
    even walk) if they lost their helmet halfway through a ride.

    (The hallmark of risk compensation is that almost everyone believes
    that _they_ doesn't do it, in spite of clear evidence that they do,
    just as almost everyone believes that _they_ have no need of
    double-blind procedures. It's those other guys who are human and
    fallible, not us.)

    Another explanation for helmet failure is that its cushion effect may
    be offset by a corresponding increase in actual impacts and rotational
    effects. A helmeted head is much larger, so it hits things that the
    unhelmeted head misses. When it hits those things, the helmeted head
    is rotated with a longer lever arm. More impacts and more powerful
    rotations would be a deadly combination, since more and more evidence
    shows that rotational injuries, not direct blows, are likely to be the
    culprits in typical bicycle crashes.

    Yet another explanation for helmet failure is that the cushion effect
    may be insignificant. Most bicyclist deaths in the U.S. involve
    massive injuries caused by collisions with cars at high speeds, not
    the comparatively gentle slip-and-fall impacts suggested by typical
    helmet testing standards.

    (Consider how rare deaths and serious brain injuries were in
    pre-helmet bicycle racing, where simple falling-down crashes were
    almost routine. We still speak of "road rash" almost casually. "Car
    rash" is quite a different matter.)

    In other words, a heavy coat and a hat can cushion you against hail,
    just as a helmet can cushion you against minor head injuries. But the
    coat and hat offer no more practical protection against bullets and
    shrapnel than helmets seem to offer against serious brain injuries and
    deaths.

    Most anecdotal arguments that a helmet did protect a rider from severe
    head injury turn out to be logically flawed, since there's no way to
    reproduce the accident without the helmet and it's hard not to draw
    shaky conclusions from cracked styrofoam.

    But we _do_ have large-scale comparisons. Those dull statistics show
    that abruptly raising helmet use from around 50% to nearly 100% with a
    mandatory helmet law has no discernable effect on serious injuries.
    Here's a typical graph of helmet use rising abruptly from about 60% to
    nearly 100% without any significant effect on head injuries:

    chapmancentral.co.uk91.4A64!OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=gif
    or http://tinyurl.com/23zdsq

    You can see the details and similar graphs here:

    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/maxi-faq-helmets?OpenDocument

    We all wish that there was something that we could buy in a store that
    would protect us on our bicycles against serious brain injury and
    death, but so far there's no practical evidence that helmets offer
    that. They may indeed protect against minor injuries.

    Luckily, as Frank and others keep reminding us, bicycling is
    extraordinarily safe.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  3. Jay Beattie said:

    Do I care if MHLs reduce the number of
    cyclists? No, because there are too many cyclists who get in my way,
    and I like having the road to myself.

    Are you serious about this one? This disturbs me a lot.
    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  4. On Jul 10, 2:25 pm, [email hidden] wrote...

    A post I wouldn't dare try to improve. Nice work.

    - Frank Krygowski

  5. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Jay Beattie said:

    Do I care if MHLs reduce the number of
    cyclists? No, because there are too many cyclists who get in my way,
    and I like having the road to myself.

    Are you serious about this one? This disturbs me a lot.

    He is a lawyer, after all.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  6. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    --
    Michael Press

  7. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    How can a hammer blow suffer irreparable damage?

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  8. On Jul 10, 3:50 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:28:17 -0700, Jay Beattie

    Quoted message said:

    Do I care if MHLs reduce the number of
    cyclists? No, because there are too many cyclists who get in my way,
    and I like having the road to myself.

    Are you serious about this one? This disturbs me a lot.

    You must have a very stress-free life if this disturbs you at all!
    Anyway, it was sort of a joke -- but not entirely. I do like the idea
    of having more people on their bikes. I mean I did all that activist
    stuff. But, the reality of more bicyclists sometimes sucks because I
    have to deal with bicycle traffic on the busy arterial on my way in to
    work. I'm in time-trial mode and don't want to deal with bicycle
    traffic. There are even riders on my secret routes through the hills
    on the way home. It was peaceful not having someone slowing me down or
    mowing me down on the little goat trails through the hills. Waaah!
    Call the waaahmbulance! -- Jay Beattie.

  9. Michael Press said:
    Quoted message said:

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    How does one damage a blow?

    --
    Ted Bennett

  10. Michael Press said:


    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    How does one irreparably damage a hammer blow?

    --
    Luigi de Guzman
    http://ouij.livejournal.com

  11. On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:24:31 GMT, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Michael Press said:


    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    How does one irreparably damage a hammer blow?

    Dear Luigi & Ted,

    A) Thanks for reminding me why I was loved by so many freshman
    composition students--sometimes I forget the joy that my scribbled
    comments must have brought to their lives.

    B) Any hammer blow is always irreparably damaged by whatever it
    strikes. All the force vanishes in an instant, leaving you to find a
    new hammer blow.

    C) Luckily, dead hammer blows can be collected and recycled:

    http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=41800

    Presumably the non-marring head is suitable for use on fine wooden
    tables.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  12. Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    Quoted message said:

    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    /Non-sequitur/ much?

    Bill "13...times 4 Friday" S.

  13. Ted Bennett said:
    Michael Press said:
    Quoted message said:

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    How does one damage a blow?

    LOL Nice catch.

  14. Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:

    On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:28:17 -0700, Jay Beattie
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do I care if MHLs reduce the number of
    cyclists? No, because there are too many cyclists who get in my way,
    and I like having the road to myself.

    Quoted message said:

    Are you serious about this one? This disturbs me a lot.

    He is a lawyer, after all.

    Hey, at least I don't ride a recumbent! -- Jay Beattie.

  15. Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

    Many in the US disdain science and logic, and prefer to go on "gut"
    reaction and/or faith based answers

    Al Gore got an Oscar for doing exactly that.

  16. Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:
    Michael Press said:

    In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    A hammer blow on a fine wood table top
    protected with a bicycle helmet
    will suffer irreparable damage.

    How can a hammer blow suffer irreparable damage?

    Helmets are /really/ tough, you see.

  17. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Jul 9, 11:03 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > ...But when folks
    > trained in the discipline see the misuse, they interpret it as a
    > warning that the user probably isn't very expert in the topic.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    More likely, they wave the specialized jargon around in front of them
    like some kind of disinfectant spray to ward off any further
    intrusions from 'non-experts.'

    Quoted message said:

    I'll grant you this: When a few people have spent years studying
    things like impulse and momentum or stress and strain, and they're in
    a technical discussion involving such concepts, it can be very
    annoying to have a cocksure no-nothing wander in and try to redefine
    fundamental terms. This is why 13-year-olds aren't usually allowed in
    research labs.

    Quoted message said:

    Usenet runs by different rules, of course, and most technically
    trained people here are patient and kind to non-techies. But there
    are reasonable limits to that patience.

    Quoted message said:

    - Frank Krygowski

    Dear Frank,

    When a 13-year-old points out that the same hammer blow produces
    different effects on a table top, depending on whether it's been
    cushioned with a pad, the 13-year-old looks smarter than people
    quibbling about his terms and calling him a 13-year-old.

    In fact, the 13-year-old is just pointing out this sort of thing:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_force

    I should add that I foolishly forgot that Joe Riel addressed the point
    in his usual succinct fashion, clarifying what the 13-year-old was
    trying to say about the hammer and the pad:

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/b0d5b0fe160759dc

    Whether you want to call it peak force, average force, force of
    impulse, or anything else, the original point was that a helmet or a
    pad does indeed cushion the impact of a crash or a hammer.

    Some posters are so caught up in the discussion that they will seize
    on the admittedly confused original explanation of the hammer and the
    pad instead of addressing the obvious practical point.

    I suspect that this evasion is due to their reluctance to grant any
    value to helmets, but it makes them look either foolish, frightened,
    or unwilling to argue in good faith.

    Here's how I'd address the hammer and pad argument instead of
    quibbling about semantics.

    Yes, helmets can cushion impacts in crashes, just as pads cushion
    hammer blows. The peak force is reduced by being spread out over a
    longer time.

    But . . .

    Study after study shows that helmets fail to do what we wish they'd
    do. When mandatory bicycle helmet laws cause a huge, abrupt increase
    in helmet use, there is no apparent effect on the rate of serious head
    injuries and deaths. The hoped-for effect simply doesn't show up.

    (Smaller studies, usually comparing badly-chosen groups, _may_ show a
    helmet effect, but smaller studies are only useful as far as they
    predict what larger studies will show. In crude terms, rolling a
    double-six once is not going to be a useful guide to playing
    backgammon. To show just how badly designed and interpreted small
    studies can be, the most often cited study claiming that helmets
    dramatically reduced head injuries also inadvertently showed that
    helmets dramatically reduced leg injuries.)

    Various explanations have been offered for the helmet failure.

    Riders may be risk compensating, meaning that they automatically
    increase their risky behavior to maintain the same level of acceptable
    risk. The taxi driver study often mentioned in these threads showed
    that taxi drivers randomly assigned cars with and without ABS braking
    clearly drove faster and closer to other cars when they thought that
    they were protected by the ABS.

    While insisting that they certainly do no such thing, people will
    answer questions that show that they certainly do behave differently
    when they wear helmets. Posters here on RBT often expose this behavior
    by pointing out that other posters who deny risk-compensation
    nevertheless admit that they would ride more slowly and carefully (or
    even walk) if they lost their helmet halfway through a ride.

    (The hallmark of risk compensation is that almost everyone believes
    that _they_ doesn't do it, in spite of clear evidence that they do,
    just as almost everyone believes that _they_ have no need of
    double-blind procedures. It's those other guys who are human and
    fallible, not us.)

    Another explanation for helmet failure is that its cushion effect may
    be offset by a corresponding increase in actual impacts and rotational
    effects. A helmeted head is much larger, so it hits things that the
    unhelmeted head misses. When it hits those things, the helmeted head
    is rotated with a longer lever arm. More impacts and more powerful
    rotations would be a deadly combination, since more and more evidence
    shows that rotational injuries, not direct blows, are likely to be the
    culprits in typical bicycle crashes.

    Yet another explanation for helmet failure is that the cushion effect
    may be insignificant. Most bicyclist deaths in the U.S. involve
    massive injuries caused by collisions with cars at high speeds, not
    the comparatively gentle slip-and-fall impacts suggested by typical
    helmet testing standards.

    (Consider how rare deaths and serious brain injuries were in
    pre-helmet bicycle racing, where simple falling-down crashes were
    almost routine. We still speak of "road rash" almost casually. "Car
    rash" is quite a different matter.)

    In other words, a heavy coat and a hat can cushion you against hail,
    just as a helmet can cushion you against minor head injuries. But the
    coat and hat offer no more practical protection against bullets and
    shrapnel than helmets seem to offer against serious brain injuries and
    deaths.

    Most anecdotal arguments that a helmet did protect a rider from severe
    head injury turn out to be logically flawed, since there's no way to
    reproduce the accident without the helmet and it's hard not to draw
    shaky conclusions from cracked styrofoam.

    But we _do_ have large-scale comparisons. Those dull statistics show
    that abruptly raising helmet use from around 50% to nearly 100% with a
    mandatory helmet law has no discernable effect on serious injuries.
    Here's a typical graph of helmet use rising abruptly from about 60% to
    nearly 100% without any significant effect on head injuries:

    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/b383cda8149ed78680256a...
    orhttp://tinyurl.com/23zdsq

    You can see the details and similar graphs here:

    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/maxi-faq-hel...

    We all wish that there was something that we could buy in a store that
    would protect us on our bicycles against serious brain injury and
    death, but so far there's no practical evidence that helmets offer
    that. They may indeed protect against minor injuries.

    Luckily, as Frank and others keep reminding us, bicycling is
    extraordinarily safe.

    Great post Carl. But bicycling is only 'extraordinarily safe' for
    those who understand the danger, and folks who claim it is
    'extraordinarily safe' generally don't.

    Robert

  18. On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:41:39 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

    Many in the US disdain science and logic, and prefer to go on "gut"
    reaction and/or faith based answers

    Al Gore got an Oscar for doing exactly that.

    Where do you get your news Sorni? Where do you get your news?

    --
    JT
    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
    ****************************

  19. Quoted message said:

    Great post Carl. But bicycling is only 'extraordinarily safe' for
    those who understand the danger, and folks who claim it is
    'extraordinarily safe' generally don't.

    Robert

    Dear Robert,

    Whatever you're trying to say, it's hardly specific. Bicycling is
    extraordinarily safe for over 99.9% of riders, year in, year out, so
    just about everyone must understand the danger.

    Below is something specific about the danger of bicycling--basically,
    cars kill bicyclists.

    Curiously, it says nothing about drunks, who may be the largest
    identifiable group of dead bicyclists.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    ***

    Stats specific to Austin [Texas]

    A good collection of statistics regarding car-bike collisions in
    Austin is available on the bicycle section of the City's Safe
    Communities page. Here are some excerpts from their report

    (percentages have been rounded):

    An average of 2.4 cyclists dies each year in Austin. (From 1980-96,
    the fewest in any one year was 0, and the most was 7.)

    Of the 41 cyclists killed between 1980-1996, 39 were struck by motor
    vehicles. (>95%)

    80% of the victims were age 39 or under.

    From 1990-96, 12 cyclists were killed, but another 1,222 were injured.

    Of those injured, around 15% suffered incapacitating injuries (i.e.,
    needed help leaving the scene of the crash).

    Surprisingly, from 1994-96, nearly 78% of cyclist injuries occurred
    during daylight hours, which a huge chunk of the total (42%) occurring
    during just the four-hour period of 4-8pm.

    However, although nighttime collisions are more rare, they're also
    more dangerous. While only 22% of all injuries occurred at dusk or at
    night, 46% of fatal and incapacitating injuries did.

    From 1994-96, 57% of bicycle injuries either occurred at intersections
    or were intersection-related. Another 16% occurred at commercial or
    residential driveways. Since driveways are really a kind of
    intersection, ~73% occurred at some kind of intersection.

    Bicyclists were judged to be in violation of the law in 62% of crashes
    from 1994-96.

    Of the 180 cases in which the police noted motorist-related crash
    factors, citations were issued to motorists only 35% of the time.
    (1994-96) For example, in the 39 cases in 1998 where drivers caused or
    contributed to bike collisions by failing to yield the right of way,
    citations were issued in only 14 cases.

    While most collisions occurred on city streets, those occurring on the
    frontage road of I-35 or on county roads were about twice as likely to
    be fatal or incapacitating (probably due to the increased speed of
    automobiles on these roads).

    http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

  20. John Forrest Tomlinson said:
    Bill Sornson said:
    Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

    Many in the US disdain science and logic, and prefer to go on "gut"
    reaction and/or faith based answers


    Al Gore got an Oscar for doing exactly that.

    Where do you get your news Sorni? Where do you get your news?

    Amplitude modulation?

    --
    Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
    The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

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