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Cycling Equipment
Published
4 July 2007
Last activity
15 July 2007
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wishful thinker
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  1. Mark Shroyer said:

    I'll go ahead and state the obvious: A modern car offers
    excellent built-in protection against moderate-speed impacts,
    including seat belts, multiple airbags, active head restraints
    (in Hondas anyway), and most importantly a solid frame around
    your entire body with crumple zones in the front and rear.

    Two points: First, you seem to be unaware that the "solid frame" is
    what people's heads run into during a car crash. It's what smashes
    their brains.

    Second, do you never ride in a pre-airbag car? What do you do then?

    As an example: When my daughter married, a good friend loaned us a
    beautiful old classic car from his collection, to trasnport the couple
    from the wedding to the reception hall. Those crazy, risk-taking
    kids didn't wear helmets. Go figure!

    What would you have done?

    Quoted message said:

    A helmet doesn't add a whole lot to that.

    Yet head injuries remain the number one cause of auto fatalities. And
    I'll note that there _has_ been at least one study that concluded that
    a simple car helmet would save lives and be very cost effective.
    http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/atsb160.html

    Quoted message said:

    And don't pretend that the question of whether or not you hit
    the pavement is entirely a matter of your skill as a cyclist.
    On this newsgroup there are constantly stories of cyclists being
    hit by negligent drivers; in those threads, nobody makes foolish
    arguments that the cyclist was at fault for not being careful
    enough.

    An anecdote involving my ex-roommate provides a good example...

    We can trade anecdotes. I can talk about the friends I've seen slip
    or trip and fall while walking, or the times it's happened to me. I
    can detail the injuries of a friend who fell on a lunch hour walk and
    ended up in the ER, blackened and bruised all around the face. I can
    talk about the pedestrian I saw hit by a car, flung at least six feet
    in the air.

    But anecdotes are not data. The logical question involves real risk
    per hour exposure - and for ordinary cycling, it's not high enough to
    require protective equipment.

    That's why bike helmets were never considered necessary for ordinary
    riding until Bell began its major marketing/horror campaign in the
    1970s. That's why they're still not considered necessary in places
    where people routinely use bikes for real transportation. It's only
    in places like the US and Australia, where biking is rare, that the
    majority seem to think cycling is a high-risk activity.

    Again, the fearmongering campaign works, at least on those who don't
    know better.

    Quoted message said:


    One other argument I'd like to attack, which I keep seeing pop
    up in this and similar threads, is that helmets aren't rated for
    30 MPH collision, ergo if you're riding at 30 MPH then wearing a
    helmet won't do you any good. Bull$hit. If you're clipped and
    fall off your bike, the speed at which you hit the ground is
    mostly a function of the acceleration of gravity from your
    position on top of your bike down to the pavement, regardless of
    your horizontal velocity.

    And yet, a conflicting argument has been used to try to promote MHLs.
    Specifically, when a kids MHL was being proposed in my state, the
    helmeteers had an article distributed to all the major newspapers.
    The headline was a variation on "If only he'd worn his helmet." It
    described a 12-year-old boy who was hit head on by a Chevy Blazer.
    They claimed a helmet would have saved him.

    The boy was riding south in the northbound lane, BTW. So it was a
    direct, head-on collision. Far beyond the 14 mph impact for which a
    helmet is certified to protect the decapitated headform they use in
    the test.

    And no, the articles never mentioned that the kid shouldn't have
    ridden facing traffic. Real safety information can't be allowed to
    distract from helmet promotion, you see...

    - Frank Krygowski

  2. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If helmets do indeed reduce serious injury, then we should expect to
    see a reduction in the rate of serious injuries (presumably head
    injuries) when mandatory helmet laws cause helmet use to rise from
    less than 50% to nearly 100%.

    Quoted message said:
    Mark Shroyer said:

    I'm not interested in studies on the statistical effectiveness
    of helmet laws at reducing head injuries across a political
    jurisdiction. That introduces a whole additional set of
    unpredictable variables and in any event fails to directly
    answer the only question I'm interested in...

    Quoted message said:

    If helmets make a significant difference, why wouldn't that difference
    show up in real life studies of large populations?

    If someone claims that anti-lock brake systems will reduce accidents,
    shouldn't accidents be reduced?
    Isn't the actual effect the only question in which we are interested?

    Helmet usage is also driven by a strong social in-group/ out-group
    effect. "We" wear helmets, "You" are unsafe / unsocialized/ not of our kind.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971

  3. Quoted message said:
    Bill Sornson said:

    [email hidden] trolled:

    Quoted message said:

    Oh, and feel free to look up the number of pedestrian fatalities in
    the US each year, and compare them to the number of bike fatalities.

    Suddenly Frank /doesn't/ consider total population factors. LOL

    I'm taking this step by step, Bill. And in any case, I provided per-
    hour figures, which you seem to have somehow missed.

    Perhaps there is somebody in your neighborhood who can explain the
    term "Per hour" to you. Ask around.

    The above quote attributed to you is accurate, Frank. You didn't qualify
    it.

  4. A Muzi said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > If helmets do indeed reduce serious injury, then we should expect to
    > see a reduction in the rate of serious injuries (presumably head
    > injuries) when mandatory helmet laws cause helmet use to rise from
    > less than 50% to nearly 100%.


    Mark Shroyer said:

    I'm not interested in studies on the statistical effectiveness
    of helmet laws at reducing head injuries across a political
    jurisdiction. That introduces a whole additional set of
    unpredictable variables and in any event fails to directly
    answer the only question I'm interested in...


    Quoted message said:

    If helmets make a significant difference, why wouldn't that difference
    show up in real life studies of large populations?

    Quoted message said:

    If someone claims that anti-lock brake systems will reduce accidents,
    shouldn't accidents be reduced?
    Isn't the actual effect the only question in which we are interested?

    Helmet usage is also driven by a strong social in-group/ out-group
    effect. "We" wear helmets, "You" are unsafe / unsocialized/ not of our kind.

    That's how the Southern Baptists operate down here in Tennessee as
    well.

  5. Bill Sornson said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Jul 4, 11:48 am, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

    > head impacts wearing said foam hats. Bicycle helmets are designed to
    > protect rider's head's in low-speed falls, nothing more.
    Yeah. Works for that, though. Won't help if you head-on into a Mack
    truck, despite the claim of "saving lives".

    --

    David L. Johnson

    The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.


    I don't give a hoot if people wear helmets or not. However, I was in
    two bike accidents in which I hit the helmet, and the helmets cracked
    both times and my head was left intact. In one occasion, my head hit a
    car and the helmet cracked in half. I passed out and woke up 4 hours
    later in the emergency room. I got a replacement helmet and a
    certificate that read "saved by the bell".

    The other occasion, my helmet hit the ground and I felt it bouncing up
    and down before sliding on the pavement. On that occasion, my helmet
    saved skin too and it cracked.

    I have no way of knowing the extent of my injuries had I not been
    wearing a helmet. I know that there would have been direct impact w/
    my head and at least, more serious injury could have happened. I
    believe that the injuries would have been likely very serious. so, I
    wear a helmet pretty much all the time.

    OTOH, my brother who is not a cyclist came to visit me this week. On
    7/04, we went out for a ride and he asked if he could wear my helmet.
    I let him use it and rode w/o a helmet. I have very short hair and
    ended up burning my head under El Paso's 100 degree heat and sun.

    I am one of those that ,while not fanatic about people wearing
    helmets, believe that helmets can save people from much more serious
    injury. This is only from personal experience.

    HOW DARE YOU?!??!?

    You guys are funny. In the face of overwhelming physics you still cling
    to your anecdotes and misconceptions. Do you believe the earth is flat?

    Greg
    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org
    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:
    http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

  6. Bill Sornson said:
    Mark Shroyer said:


    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread. Nobody (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to; likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    You're completely correct...and obviously a newbie to these flame wars. The
    AHZs (anti-helmet zealots) refuse to listen to reason. You'll see :-D

    Now there's irony for you: helmet-nazi claiming that helmet-free
    proponents aren't able to reason. Quite the opposite, sonny boy, quite
    the opposite. It ain't the helmet-free proponents who are clinging to
    nothing but myth and legend.

    Greg
    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org

    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:
    http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

  7. On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 08:07:26 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shroyer
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    Again, as pointed out in the parent article, studies designed to
    measure this specific effect have shown, albeit not entirely
    conclusively, that voluntary helmet usage significantly
    decreases the risk of brain injury in accident victim cyclists,
    all other things being equal.

    [snip]

    Dear Mark,

    As Tim McNamara asks, what studies are these?

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  8. "Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Michael Warner said:

    FWIW, I've heard of several cases where a helmet either flew off
    before impact, or didn't provide protection at an impact location
    where it should have. I suspect that quite a few people ride around with
    one balanced on their heads, but don't do up the strap.

    To clarify: they're mandatory here.

    Paramounts are mandatory there?!
    Sorry, I read the Subject line. Silly me.
    Kerry

  9. On Jul 6, 3:13 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 6 Jul 2007 03:02:57 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shroyer

    Quoted message said:

    the odds of me being hit by a car or knocked to the
    pavement while in pedestrian mode are much smaller than the
    chances that the same thing could happen when I'm riding my
    bicycle on the shoulder of the road.

    Ahh, now you are sounding reasonble insofar as your are beginning to
    use actual "odds" in your thinking.

    But I have to ask three questions.

    First, do you actually know the odds or have good information on them,
    or are you speculating?

    And second, if the odds of getting hurt cycling are minisclue, and the
    odds of getting hurt in a similar way walking are, say half that, do
    the differences really matter. That is, if the chance is
    (speculating), one in ten million for every hour of exposure in one
    activity and one in twenty million in the other, are those differences
    worth diffrences in behaviour?

    And thirdly, if you own a helmet already, why not use it walking?
    You've already got on and you never know - it could save your life
    some day.

    Quoted message said:

    (taking into account the social
    stigma which would be attached to wearing a helmet while on
    foot, I admit

    Oh, "good" reason I guess. But if you care abou safety as much as you
    do, why don't you work to do somethign about it in walking? Think
    about it -- you could be pioneer. Or, say, in terms of wearing
    helmet in a car you could wear it while out alone and other people
    don't see you.

    Quoted message said:

    has decided that I don't wear a helmet walking
    around, but I usually do on my bike.

    It's an irrational decision based on a flawed perception of risk and
    on a distrubing sort of social pressure and attitude that cycling is a
    risky adventure. That view of cycling as especially risky is
    funadmentally anti-cycling and you're supporting that.
    --
    JT

    John's opinion reflects mine exactly: cycling is not a dangerous sport
    and the social and legal pressures for helmet use are just not
    reasonable considering the REAL risk of the sport. It is anti-cycling
    in that it discourages people from cycling because they think it's
    dangerous. It discourages people from cycling sometimes simply
    because they don't like helmets and think they are endangering
    themselves if they ride without one. It discourages kids from just
    jumping on the bike and riding around the neighborhood or to their
    friends' house - gotta go and find the helmet and put it on (properly)
    first. It just promotes a bad attitude about cycling.

    I have written this before: I am happy and encouraged when I see kids
    and adults doing more casual riding without helmets. It indicates to
    me that they are just jumping on the bikes and riding, without being
    afraid.

  10. Quoted message said:

    But the fact is, the head injury risk from any car ride is tiny, and
    is low enough that people willingly accept it.

    The same is true for any ordinary bike ride - but people have been
    falsely convinced otherwise.

    needs to be repeated frequently!

  11. Michael Warner said:
    Quoted message said:

    In Australia (as in the US) your public health system spends FAR more
    to treat and rehabilitate people who wouldn't need treatment if they
    cycled more.

    True, but irrelevant. They also wouldn't need as much treatment if they
    walked around the block every day.

    It is relevant if mandatory helmet use discourages the healthy
    activity of cycling and those people instead get from place to place
    in a motor vehicle. In my opinion, the health cost equation of helmet
    use (or lack thereof) most certainly has to look at how physical
    activity is impacted and how that impact affects other expensive
    health conditions.

  12. On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:26:25 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
    > If helmets do indeed reduce serious injury, then we should expect to
    > see a reduction in the rate of serious injuries (presumably head
    > injuries) when mandatory helmet laws cause helmet use to rise from
    > less than 50% to nearly 100%.

    Quoted message said:
    Mark Shroyer said:

    I'm not interested in studies on the statistical effectiveness
    of helmet laws at reducing head injuries across a political
    jurisdiction. That introduces a whole additional set of
    unpredictable variables and in any event fails to directly
    answer the only question I'm interested in...

    Quoted message said:

    If helmets make a significant difference, why wouldn't that difference
    show up in real life studies of large populations?

    If someone claims that anti-lock brake systems will reduce accidents,
    shouldn't accidents be reduced?
    Isn't the actual effect the only question in which we are interested?

    Helmet usage is also driven by a strong social in-group/ out-group
    effect. "We" wear helmets, "You" are unsafe / unsocialized/ not of our kind.

    Dear Andrew,

    Absolutely untrue!

    When I bought a tweed cap to ride trials as a teenager in the 1970's,
    it was solely to improve my riding, not because everyone else in the
    Rocky Mountain Trials Association wore them in imitation of British
    trials riders like Gordon Jackson, who wore tweed caps in the Scottish
    Six Days Trial:

    http://tinyurl.com/38bfx5

    Click on the lower right in explorer for the full size view, which
    lets you see the thin "quick-release" levers welded to Jackson's axle
    nuts--no time wasted reaching for wrenches to fix flats. The dingus
    just below the engine fins is a compressed-air bottle. Note that the
    clutch lever has been badly bent in an argument with a rock.

    Here's the proof that tweed caps (reinforced by rain goggles) produce
    concrete results. This is the famous picture of Jackson taking his
    single dab in six days in 1961 at Grey Mares Ridge:

    http://tinyurl.com/2w9cg3

    Compare that single tweed-cap dab to this movie of a modern rider,
    whose helmet is obviously holding him back in Laggan Locks, despite
    his much lighter and more powerful machine:

    http://www.twnclub.ch/scottish_files/2007/LagganLocks3.wmv

    After that comparison, how can anyone doubt that helmets are inferior
    to tweed caps?

    Here's a typical gaggle of trials riders wearing the unquestionably
    helpful caps:

    http://tinyurl.com/36tj98

    The guy with the goggles undoubtedly won the event.

    Alas, rain goggles would have been ridiculous in the near-desert where
    I lived, so I never wore them on my tweed cap and therefore never won
    the SSDT. (My cap was _not_ ridiculous, and no other plausible
    explanations have been offered to account for my failure to win the
    Scottish.)

    Instead of rain goggles, I wore thick glasses and strongly resembled
    the dashing fellow on the third bike from the left:

    http://tinyurl.com/2yqsop

    I forget whether the tweed trials cap shaded my eyes, reduced wind
    drag, kept my head warm, or protected me from insects and branches,
    but I'm sure that it helped me over several logs that would otherwise
    have stopped me.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  13. In article
    <[email hidden]

    Quoted message said:

    ,


    Mark Shroyer said:

    I don't understand the vehemence of the anti-helmet fanatics in
    this thread.

    There is no such thing as an ` anti-helmet fanatics'.

    Quoted message said:

    Nobody

    Yes, they are.

    Quoted message said:

    (at least nobody here) is telling you that
    you should wear a helmet if you don't want to;
    likewise, if the
    rest of us prefer having some degree of protection, however
    minimal, between our heads and the road, then you really
    shouldn't take it personally.

    --
    Michael Press

  14. In article <[email hidden]>,

    landotter said:

    one look at other risk reduction. Americans, for the most part, ride
    like [censored]. Not Bernard Hinault [censored]--that would be pretty
    baddass, but like Gomer Fife [censored].So we need to solve the [censored]
    problem, and an asshat is certainly out of the question.

    dude, that's gomer PYLE. therefore, your whole line of reasoning is
    invalid. Q.E.D.

  15. Tim McNamara said:
    Quoted message said:

    back to the subject at hand: Anyone commuting without a chain
    mail vest is a thorax hater!!!!

    Mine's mithril. Lighter and breathes better than iron or steel.

    balrog.

  16. G.T. said:
    Bill Sornson said:
    Quoted message said:

    On Jul 4, 11:48 am, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>
    wrote:
    > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> head impacts wearing said foam hats. Bicycle helmets are designed to
    >> protect rider's head's in low-speed falls, nothing more.
    > Yeah. Works for that, though. Won't help if you head-on into a Mack
    > truck, despite the claim of "saving lives".

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > --

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > David L. Johnson

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand mathematics.
    I don't give a hoot if people wear helmets or not. However, I was in
    two bike accidents in which I hit the helmet, and the helmets cracked
    both times and my head was left intact. In one occasion, my head hit a
    car and the helmet cracked in half. I passed out and woke up 4 hours
    later in the emergency room. I got a replacement helmet and a
    certificate that read "saved by the bell".

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The other occasion, my helmet hit the ground and I felt it bouncing up
    and down before sliding on the pavement. On that occasion, my helmet
    saved skin too and it cracked.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I have no way of knowing the extent of my injuries had I not been
    wearing a helmet. I know that there would have been direct impact w/
    my head and at least, more serious injury could have happened. I
    believe that the injuries would have been likely very serious. so, I
    wear a helmet pretty much all the time.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    OTOH, my brother who is not a cyclist came to visit me this week. On
    7/04, we went out for a ride and he asked if he could wear my helmet.
    I let him use it and rode w/o a helmet. I have very short hair and
    ended up burning my head under El Paso's 100 degree heat and sun.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I am one of those that ,while not fanatic about people wearing
    helmets, believe that helmets can save people from much more serious
    injury. This is only from personal experience.

    Quoted message said:

    HOW DARE YOU?!??!?

    You guys are funny. In the face of overwhelming physics you still cling
    to your anecdotes and misconceptions. Do you believe the earth is flat?

    Greg
    --http://ticketmastersucks.org
    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

    What anecdotes and misconceptions are you talking about. I don't
    believe in any theory pro or against helmets. I simply can tell you
    what happened to me when I fell. I hit something with my head very
    hard, but thank budah, there was a helmet.
    betwwen my head and the other hard surface.

    Andres

  17. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Quoted message said:

    But it's worth noting that Australian society is very, very similar
    to that in the US;

    I don't know how many Aussies would agree, Frank. :-D

  18. Bill Sornson said:
    Quoted message said:
    Bill Sornson said:

    [email hidden] trolled:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Oh, and feel free to look up the number of pedestrian fatalities in
    > the US each year, and compare them to the number of bike fatalities.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Suddenly Frank /doesn't/ consider total population factors. LOL

    Quoted message said:

    I'm taking this step by step, Bill. And in any case, I provided per-
    hour figures, which you seem to have somehow missed.

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps there is somebody in your neighborhood who can explain the
    term "Per hour" to you. Ask around.

    The above quote attributed to you is accurate, Frank. You didn't qualify
    it.

    You really _don't_ understand "per hour," do you? ;-) Let me explain
    slowly.

    1) Risk per hour is a useful metric when an individual is deciding
    whether or not to use a particular protective device. And risk per
    hour automatically takes "total population factors" into account.

    2) Total fatalities per year is useful when an agency is trying to
    assess "cost to society" of a problem, and decide whether the
    government should take action.

    Both points have been used to justify bike helmet promotion and
    MHLs. Both are wrong.

    For example, people frequently imply there is a large per-hour risk of
    fatality in riding a bike - although, like you, few people are capable
    of expressing the idea in numerical terms. BUT the risk of fatality
    (or serious head injury, for that matter) is negligibly low while
    riding a bike in any ordinary way. It's lower than similar risks for
    many common activities.

    For the second example, helmet promoters frequently make statements
    something like "Head injuries to bicyclists cost the public $430
    trillion dollars every year." (Insert your own wild-guess number, as
    they do.) But there are far _more_ head injuries (including fatal
    ones) to pedestrians, and to motorists, and to people just moving
    about their own homes. The "cost to society" handwringers choose to
    ignore those.

    If bike helmets are justified based on risk per hour, they must also
    be justified for motorists and pedestrians. If the cost to society
    justifies bike helmets, then it must even more justify helmets on
    motorists and pedestrians.

    There you are, Bill - a nice, slow explanation. Now PLEASE go find
    someone in your neighborhood who's willing to go over it with you
    until you understand it.

    - Frank Krygowski

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    A Muzi said:

    Helmet usage is also driven by a strong social in-group/ out-group
    effect. "We" wear helmets, "You" are unsafe / unsocialized/ not of
    our kind.

    That is a very good point. "Serious" cyclists wear helmets around here
    and there is peer pressure to wear one on rides. Many clubs require a
    helmet on club rides. Wearing a helmet is one of the identifying
    insignia of a serious cyclist.

    I started wearing a helmet when I started racing, since helmets were
    required. But then prior to my racing days, the USCF and ABLA required
    people to wear those silly leather hairnets, too, which had zero chance
    of being useful in a crash.

    I wore a helmet religiously (word chosen deliberately) when riding for
    years. Then after many discussions and looking into the available
    facts, I still wore one because it made my wife feel better about me
    going out for rides even though I had no expectation of significant
    protection. Now she's more OK with me not wearing a helmet and I wear
    it less. The pinched nerve in my neck is so much happier without the
    weight of a helmet stuck to the top of my head.

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Kerry Montgomery said:

    "Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Michael Warner said:

    FWIW, I've heard of several cases where a helmet either flew off
    before impact, or didn't provide protection at an impact location
    where it should have. I suspect that quite a few people ride
    around with one balanced on their heads, but don't do up the
    strap.

    To clarify: they're mandatory here.

    Paramounts are mandatory there?!

    No, no, no. They are of paramount importance but not mandatory.

    Quoted message said:

    Sorry, I read the Subject line. Silly me.

    Yes. ;-)

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