parasites and non-parasites

Crognum asks:

Quoted message said:

I know there are species of wasp that are parasitic and
species of wasp that are non-parasitic, but is there a
case, for example, where a wasp species has given rise to
wasp species Y and Z, where X is parasitic and Y is not?

A great many wasps, such as the "fig wasps" (Chalcidoidea)
have phylogenically radiated to be both "parasitic" on the
fruiting bodies of plants. as well as becoming at least
facultative parasitoids of the lepidopteran, coleopteran and
dipteran larvae that often appear in that setting.

For a more technical paper on the subject, primarily
directed at the embryological changes that seem to occur
with these niche shifts in at least a few wasp families,
please see:

pnas.org1097.pdfOpen ↗

Wirt Atmar

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:49:05 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (crognum)

Quoted message said:

Greetings,

I am interested in learning of any occurences in nature
where two related species (or subspecies) both derived from
the same parent species, display a difference in their
propensity for parasitism.

I know there are species of wasp that are parasitic and
species of wasp that are non-parasitic, but is there a
case, for example, where a wasp species has given rise to
wasp species Y and Z, where X is parasitic and Y is not?

Also, I know that there are certain birds that sometimes
lay their eggs in the nests of other members of their own
species to increase their own brood at the expense of
fellow birds (I believe this is called non-obligate brood
parasitism), but I am unsure if there are any cases where
this activity occurs between related species or subspecies.

Ideas anyone?

How close do you need a relationship do you need? There are
numerous groups with both parasitic and non-parasitic forms:
leeches, copepods, nematodes, just about every group in
fact. Parasitic plants like mistletoe have closely related
non-parasitic relatives. Many soil bacteria seem extremely
closely related to virulent forms.

In general, though, parasitism is usually a fairly
specialized life style and is not the type of thing that
easily arises in one quick step -- one sibling species is
parasitic but the parent and the other siblings are not.

"crognum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I am interested in learning of any occurences in nature
where two related species (or subspecies) both derived
from the same parent species, display a difference in
their propensity for parasitism.

I can't think of a good example of two closely related
species where one is clearly parasitic whilst another is free-
living. However you might want to look at the yellow-billed
oxpecker, Buphagus africanus, and its relative the red-
billed oxpecker, Buphagus erythrorhynchus. These birds clean
ticks from large mammals, but also take blood form wounds,
so are part way to parasitism. B. erythrorhynchus seems to
benefit its host less, so it might be the more parasitic of
the two - I haven't researched this properly but you will
find plenty of material on the web.

piggy backing, sorry the orig post isn't available for me:

crognum said: " Also, I know that there are certain birds
that sometimes lay their eggs in the nests of other members
of their own species to increase their own brood at the
expense of fellow birds (I believe this is called non-
obligate brood parasitism), but I am unsure if there are
any cases where this activity occurs between related
species or subspecies. "

I think you are thinking of the cukoo.

via enchantedlearning.comCuOpen ↗
ckoo.shtml

"Almost half of the cuckoo species are brood parasites;
these birds lay their eggs in other birds nest (birds of
other species). The unwitting host bird feed the intruder
bird with its own brood. Scientists think that the cuckoo's
brood parasitism may have evolved independently in New World
(North and South American) and Old World cuckoos.

Other cuckoo species care for their own young, and a few of
these are cooperative breeders (living in family units),
notably the anis."

Didn't say if there was a genus that had some parasitic and
some non- parasitic members tho.

What about E. coli? Some isolates are completely benign but
others are vary pathogenic.

Also Agrobacterium tumefaciens - the presence of a plasmid
allows it to parasitize plants, but without the plasmid it
cannot. There are strains with each.

There are many fungi where one species of a genus is
parasitic on plants and other species are saprophytic.
Fusarium for example.

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:49:05 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden]

(crognum) said:

Greetings,

I am interested in learning of any occurences in nature
where two related species (or subspecies) both derived
from the same parent species, display a difference in
their propensity for parasitism.

I know there are species of wasp that are parasitic and
species of wasp that are non-parasitic, but is there a
case, for example, where a wasp species has given rise to
wasp species Y and Z, where X is parasitic and Y is not?

Also, I know that there are certain birds that sometimes
lay their eggs in the nests of other members of their own
species to increase their own brood at the expense of
fellow birds (I believe this is called non-obligate brood
parasitism), but I am unsure if there are any cases where
this activity occurs between related species or
subspecies.

Ideas anyone?

How close do you need a relationship do you need? There are
numerous groups with both parasitic and non-parasitic
forms: leeches, copepods, nematodes, just about every group
in fact. Parasitic plants like mistletoe have closely
related non-parasitic relatives. Many soil bacteria seem
extremely closely related to virulent forms.

In general, though, parasitism is usually a fairly
specialized life style and is not the type of thing that
easily arises in one quick step -- one sibling species is
parasitic but the parent and the other siblings are not.

"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"crognum" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

[snippage]

Quoted message said:

I can't think of a good example of two closely related

species where one is

Quoted message said:

clearly parasitic whilst another is free-living.

Sure---proto-human husbands and wives! 🙂 (You guess which
is which.) (BTW, are males and females technically
considered to be sub-species?) However, somewhere on the way
to becoming modern humans, the parasites became simbiotic--
it's interesting to wonder exactly why/how. Hmm... ...tonyC
[bachelor]

Quoted message said:

However you might want to look at the yellow-billed

oxpecker, Buphagus

Quoted message said:

africanus, and its relative the red-billed oxpecker,

Buphagus

Quoted message said:

erythrorhynchus. These birds clean ticks from large

mammals, but also take

Quoted message said:

blood form wounds, so are part way to parasitism. B.

erythrorhynchus seems

Quoted message said:

to benefit its host less, so it might be the more

parasitic of the two - I

Quoted message said:

haven't researched this properly but you will find plenty

of material on the

Quoted message said:

web.

"Anthony Cerrato" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Sure---proto-human husbands and wives! 🙂 (You guess which
is which.) (BTW, are males and females technically
considered to be sub-species?) However, somewhere on the
way to becoming modern humans, the parasites became simbiotic--
it's interesting to wonder exactly why/how. Hmm...
...tonyC [bachelor]

In some deep-sea fish the male is very small and lives
permanently attached to the female, living off her body
juices. I have seen such males described as "parasitic". I
don't think this is a particularly good use of the term.

Anthony Cerrato said:

(BTW, are males and females technically considered to be
sub-species?)

Finally, something I can speak of with some authority...

Yes. Technically, any class that can be further dividied is
a genus, and that into which it can be divided according to
its predicates is a species. Since under the Aristotlelian
logic, a species is a genus if it has subaltern species,
these subaltern species must be subspecies.

Of course, everybody made exceptions for living beings...

"... if anyone utters such a proposition as ... "Argus was a
mastiff," to what head of Predicables would such a Predicate
be referred? Surely our logical principles would lead us to
answer, that it is the _Species_; since it could hardly be
called an Accident, and is manifestly no other Predicable.
And yet every Naturalist would at once pronounce that
Mastiff, is no distinct Species, but is only a _variety_ of
the Species Dog. ... ... the solution of the difficulty is
to be found in the peculiar technical sense ... of the word
"Species" when applied to _organized Beings_: in which case
it is always applied (when we are speaking strictly, as
naturalists) to individuals as are supposed to be _descended
from a common stock_, or which _might_ have so descended;
_viz._ which resemble one another (to use M. Cuvier's
expression) as much as those of the same stock do."

Richard Whatley, Archbishop of Dublin, _Elements of Logic_
Ninth (octavo) ed. London: Longmans, Green & Co. Original
edition, 1826, p186.

I am sure this will clarify the matter no end.

[moderator's note: I stand (really -- okay, now I'm
sitting.) in awe. - JAH]

--
John Wilkins [email hidden]
wilkins.id.auwilkins.id.auOpen ↗ "Men mark it when they hit, but do
not mark it when they miss"
- Francis
Bacon

"John Wilkins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anthony Cerrato said:

(BTW, are males and females technically considered to be
sub-species?)

Finally, something I can speak of with some authority...

Yes. Technically, any class that can be further dividied

is a genus, and

Quoted message said:

that into which it can be divided according to its

predicates is a

Quoted message said:

species. Since under the Aristotlelian logic, a species is

a genus if it

Quoted message said:

has subaltern species, these subaltern species must be

subspecies.

Excellent explanation. But what is a class... <grin>

Quoted message said:

Of course, everybody made exceptions for living beings...

"... if anyone utters such a proposition as ... "Argus was

a mastiff,"

Quoted message said:

to what head of Predicables would such a Predicate be

referred? Surely

Quoted message said:

our logical principles would lead us to answer, that it is

the

Quoted message said:

_Species_; since it could hardly be called an Accident,

and is

Quoted message said:

manifestly no other Predicable. And yet every Naturalist

would at once

Quoted message said:

pronounce that Mastiff, is no distinct Species, but is

only a _variety_

Quoted message said:

of the Species Dog. ... ... the solution of the difficulty
is to be found in the

peculiar

Quoted message said:

technical sense ... of the word "Species" when applied to

_organized

Quoted message said:

Beings_: in which case it is always applied (when we are

speaking

Quoted message said:

strictly, as naturalists) to individuals as are supposed

to be

Quoted message said:

_descended from a common stock_, or which _might_ have so

descended;

Quoted message said:

_viz._ which resemble one another (to use M. Cuvier's

expression) as

Quoted message said:

much as those of the same stock do."

Richard Whatley, Archbishop of Dublin, _Elements of Logic_

Ninth

Quoted message said:

(octavo) ed. London: Longmans, Green & Co. Original

edition, 1826, p186.

Quoted message said:

I am sure this will clarify the matter no end.

[moderator's note: I stand (really -- okay, now I'm

sitting.) in

Quoted message said:

awe. - JAH]

Me too! Quite impressive...and by an Archbishop too. I get
the gist of it tho, although I can see where there might be
some grey areas. And when you get down to the pre-biotic
chemical precursor/ancestors of life (DNA, RNA, polymeric
enzymes, etc.) we get completely fuzzy as to the
subdivisions of life. ...tonyC

Quoted message said:

--
John Wilkins [email hidden]
wilkins.id.auwilkins.id.auOpen ↗ "Men mark it when they hit, but
do not mark it when they

miss"

Quoted message said:

- Francis

Bacon