pealling push up push down

When the bunch is doing 60kph down the back straight I do.

There was no fitness work involved in this power training (it was low heart rate work).

I was averaging 91% of my max HR in time trials before and after this training.

The glutes are very large muscles. If you hadn't noticed they keep you verticle all day and are very strong.

biker-linz said:

This is completely contrary to existing evidence. There is no established connection between 'smoothness' and performance. In the only existing (and highly credible) study into the pedalling mechanics of elite-level cyclists they tended to display a *less* 'smooth' pedal stroke than inferior riders, although this is probably only due to the fact that they apply so much more torque on the downstroke.

L.

I'm not sure which part of my post you are referring to but I'm sure if you are a coach you have seen studies to show that concentrating on pulling up reduces power overall.

And from experience you can see that good cyclists pedal smoothly. That doesn't mean they can't develop more power in one part of the stroke than another. If you read studies you would know that they do. I didn't ever claim otherwise.

So what part of my post is contrary to existing evidence? It sounds like you haven't read it properly.

Who would focus on the upstroke and ignore the downstroke?

While I've had a massive jump in power from my upstroke, I still train with platform pedals and sandshoes to work on my downstroke.

Brizza said:

Who would focus on the upstroke and ignore the downstroke?

While I've had a massive jump in power from my upstroke, I still train with platform pedals and sandshoes to work on my downstroke.

The question arises, when do you stop focusing on your upstroke. As JERRYZ stated, his increase in power seems to come from the earlier start to the downstroke which in a way is the same objective as the rotorcrank idea. By focusing on pulling up, you are delaying the start of your downstroke and this is one of the ways that pulling up reduces overall power. The advantage that you are getting from pulling up is the result of unweighing and if you concentrated on the correct unweighting technique and an earlier start to your downstroke, you would see an even greater increase in power.

I didn't see you on the side of the road watching to see if I was or wasn't pushing down yesterday.

While training you can only specialise in one but why can't you use both when racing?

Just because you can't do both doesn't mean others can't.

mitosis said:

I'm not sure which part of my post you are referring to but I'm sure if you are a coach you have seen studies to show that concentrating on pulling up reduces power overall.

And from experience you can see that good cyclists pedal smoothly. That doesn't mean they can't develop more power in one part of the stroke than another. If you read studies you would know that they do. I didn't ever claim otherwise.

So what part of my post is contrary to existing evidence? It sounds like you haven't read it properly.

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I was responding to "In general road riding the best riders pedal smoothly. If stomping worked you would see the pros doing it." As someone else on this thread has pointed out, elite-level cyclists do not pedal smoothly at all, at least not according to the one credibe study we have to draw from.

L.

Brizza said:

The Coyle test is flawed because he studied cyclists who had trained for downstroke work.

What makes you say that? The two groups were separated entirely on the basis of performance, and subsequently it was demonstrated that the best riders pulled up *less*. Actually in a previous study they tried taking the riders and giving them pedals with no clips or straps and it made absolutely no difference to their performance, which is one reason why they wanted to investigate further. We do have to bear in mind that force-instrumented pedals can give slightly misleading information however. Has anyone here read Jeff Broker's chapter in 'High-Tech Cycling'? It's worth reading the section on fundamental vs. muscular components of force measured at the pedal.

L.

biker-linz said:

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I was responding to "In general road riding the best riders pedal smoothly. If stomping worked you would see the pros doing it." As someone else on this thread has pointed out, elite-level cyclists do not pedal smoothly at all, at least not according to the one credibe study we have to draw from.

L.

Why did it need a study to confirm this, if you apply nil force when cranks are in the 12-6 o'c position and max force in the 9-3 o'c position, it should be obvious to all that you are not pedalling smoothly.

so what's the consensus here?

In regards to applying power somewhere other than the down stroke, I think you can accomplish much more over the top of the stroke than you can by doing in real sort of pulling up.

Think about lifting weights in a gym:

Areas in which you can be strong (er):

1. Leg extensions (seated and extending leg at the knee)
2. Leg presses (seated and extending the thighs)
3. Squats (similiar to leg presses)

Weaker exercises

1. Leg curls, you can develop this, but not normally as strong as leg extensions
2. Never done this, but how much weight can you actually lift just by picking your leg up? Not nearly what you can push!

Apply the above to a pedal stroke...

Over the top of the stroke: You can apply a movement very simliar to a leg extension roughly in the 10:30 - 2:00 region of the stroke. To do this you have to use your upper body to brace and create a good platform.

Down stroke: If you begin dropping your heel as you approach the 2:00 area, you can generate tremendous force until around 5:00. At this point the force starts becoming misdirected (although you can still generate it). In a sense, you're trying to stretch the crank.

IF, you let your toe start pointing slightly down at around 4:30, you can get better use of this force from ~4:30 - 5:30 (possibly a little later depending on bike position).

Our body can't really produce "circular" force, so what we're left with is angular (linear) force. We do have a choice however, of how to supply that linear force, and to some extent, what direction to project it.

Because a pedal stroke is circular, all we can really do is break down the circle and attempt to apply linear force tanget to the circle, where it is realistic to do so. Our legs can extend/push with more strength than they can retract/curl, so it only makes to use the strength where it's most beneficial.

On the other hand, our legs don't really act as pistons either. Pistons, move up and down, that's it. Force can be generated in one linear direction, down. Our legs are capable of more than just ...down.

As far as smoothness vs. stomping, I certainly agree. Elite cyclists APPEAR to be pedaling very smoothly. I'm sure the force being applied to the pedals varies greatly over the stroke, but the transitions from no force/less force to a lot of force is very smooth.

Since this thread started I've been paying more attention to my pedaling style, as well as changing things to see the effect. The place where I can tell the most difference is on a long hill.

If I just "stomp" I feel all the mini accelarations as I'm "stomping". This doesn't feel very efficient at all, and proves not to be as my speed eventually drops and legs become more fatigued.

If I apply power over the top of the stroke through 5:30-6:00 I can maintain the same speed with less perceived effort, and do not fatigue nearly as fast. Aside from that, the mini accelerations are gone, speed feels (and is) very constant.

I guess what works for everyone can be different, but in my case I do no significant "pulling" of the pedals. The only exception would be a standing start where I know I pull a lot until I get moving.

Mansmind said:

As far as smoothness vs. stomping, I certainly agree. Elite cyclists APPEAR to be pedaling very smoothly. I'm sure the force being applied to the pedals varies greatly over the stroke, but the transitions from no force/less force to a lot of force is very smooth.

You say that elite cyclists APPEAR to be pedaling very smoothly.

I'm just curious, how are you able to observe this? What exactly are you looking at?

I can conclusively say that pulling up adds at least 5 km/hr to my top sprint speed which is an enormous difference. I agree that in endurance cycling, you should just pull up enough to get the leg out of the way. Generally.

Biker-Linz said: What makes you say that? The two groups were separated entirely on the basis of performance, and subsequently it was demonstrated that the best riders pulled up *less*. Actually in a previous study they tried taking the riders and giving t

One of the riders did pull up, and he was more than elite. So ymmv.

Biker-Linz said: Actually in a previous study they tried taking the riders and giving them pedals with no clips or straps and it made absolutely no difference to their performance, which is one reason why they wanted to investigate further.

Hmmm... but ALL elite cyclists (endurance and sprint) wear clips or straps when competing (something that attaches the foot to the pedal). Could they all be wrong? I don't volunteer for riding aahhh.. shall we say, free footed?

As for applying more force, pulling up permits you to apply more then bodyweight to the pedals. Can't picture it? Stand on a scale. Raise one leg slightly and attach it to something. Now pull up with your hip flexors and hamstrings. At this point the scale will show more than your bodyweight. For endurance cycling, the oxygen demands are the limiting factor, and obviously pushing down with far less then the maximum will make it the limiting factor, but for a short effort, where oxygen doesn't matter, the additive effect of pushing down and pulling up seems to me to equal more power. It certainly does in my case.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

I can conclusively say that pulling up adds at least 5 km/hr to my top sprint speed which is an enormous difference. I agree that in endurance cycling, you should just pull up enough to get the leg out of the way. Generally.

Biker-Linz said: What makes you say that? The two groups were separated entirely on the basis of performance, and subsequently it was demonstrated that the best riders pulled up *less*. Actually in a previous study they tried taking the riders and giving t

One of the riders did pull up, and he was more than elite. So ymmv.

Biker-Linz said: Actually in a previous study they tried taking the riders and giving them pedals with no clips or straps and it made absolutely no difference to their performance, which is one reason why they wanted to investigate further.

Hmmm... but ALL elite cyclists (endurance and sprint) wear clips or straps when competing (something that attaches the foot to the pedal). Could they all be wrong? I don't volunteer for riding aahhh.. shall we say, free footed?

As for applying more force, pulling up permits you to apply more then bodyweight to the pedals. Can't picture it? Stand on a scale. Raise one leg slightly and attach it to something. Now pull up with your hip flexors and hamstrings. At this point the scale will show more than your bodyweight. For endurance cycling, the oxygen demands are the limiting factor, and obviously pushing down with far less then the maximum will make it the limiting factor, but for a short effort, where oxygen doesn't matter, the additive effect of pushing down and pulling up seems to me to equal more power. It certainly does in my case.

-Bikeguy

I think we're talking cross purposes here. I can definitely agree with you in the case of sprinting and climbing out of the saddle; what you're talking about seems to be maximising neuromuscular power, if that's the case then I agree completely. I was purely talking about seated riding. No, I wouldn't like to throw away my cleats either, but in the case of the very *best* riders, taking away their cleats made no difference to performance when riding steady-state and seated IIRC.
As you so correctly pointed out, something that maximises neuromuscular power probably has no effect whatever on aerobic power and vice-versa.

L.

Aaberg said:

You say that elite cyclists APPEAR to be pedaling very smoothly.

I'm just curious, how are you able to observe this? What exactly are you looking at?

nothing more than appearance (watching). I said it like to that indicate that I don't think they are actually.

[quote="Mansmind"]


Apply the above to a pedal stroke...

Over the top of the stroke: You can apply a movement very simliar to a leg extension roughly in the 10:30 - 2:00 region of the stroke. To do this you have to use your upper body to brace and create a good platform.

Down stroke: If you begin dropping your heel as you approach the 2:00 area, you can generate tremendous force until around 5:00. At this point the force starts becoming misdirected (although you can still generate it). In a sense, you're trying to stretch the crank.

IF, you let your toe start pointing slightly down at around 4:30, you can get better use of this force from ~4:30 - 5:30 (possibly a little later depending on bike position.



It looks good in theory but try doing this at a cadence of 90 rpm, your muscles will have to react to 9 brain signals per sec. which is impossible and you end up with only a weakened downstroke when compared to the downstroke of a masher.

[quote="n crowleyIt looks good in theory but try doing this at a cadence of 90 rpm, your muscles will have to react to 9 brain signals per sec. which is impossible and you end up with only a weakened downstroke when compared to the downstroke of a masher.[/QUOTE"]
Actually, my average cadence ranges from 95-103 rpm.

I "think" I tend to pedal like this all the time, although I readily admit I can't feel it nearly as much when rolling on more level ground. Then again, I can't feel the "mashing" as much then either.

My cadence is generally lower on a hill (at least any decent hill). There's a hill near here that I have to climb nearly every ride to get back home. I always remember it because it's at the very end of the ride, and I'm tired 😄 It takes me ~350 watts to climb at ~9.5 mph (9% grade). I don't know about you, but when I'm generating 350 watts at what works out to be about 80 rpm (slow for me).... I feel every muscle contraction taking place. That's when I can feel what I'm actually doing during the pedal stroke.

To be sure, I'm not filming my pedaling action, so I could be off some in what I think I'm doing but not terribly so.

John

Mansmind said:

nothing more than appearance (watching). I said it like to that indicate that I don't think they are actually.

I don't quite see how appearance can tell you anything about how the actual pedal stroke is carried out. Even my mother seems to have a smooth pedal stroke if I just look at the way she's pedalling, and she doesn't have cleats, she's old, and she has never been a cyclist... 😄

Aaberg said:

I don't quite see how appearance can tell you anything about how the actual pedal stroke is carried out. Even my mother seems to have a smooth pedal stroke if I just look at the way she's pedalling, and she doesn't have cleats, she's old, and she has never been a cyclist... 😄

That's exactly the point I'm making 🙂 A lot of people on here have pointed out how smooth the elites are pedaling, and I agree, if you're just going from appearance. The referenced tests have shown that they're not actually applying power smoothly through the stroke however.

Mansmind said:

That's exactly the point I'm making 🙂 A lot of people on here have pointed out how smooth the elites are pedaling, and I agree, if you're just going from appearance. The referenced tests have shown that they're not actually applying power smoothly through the stroke however.

A smooth pedalling technique in TT's means being able to use the muscles to apply continuous maximum chaindrive power to the chainwheel at all times even when the pedals are passing through the dead spot area. You can estimate the power input of a rider as the cranks turn through the 360 degrees but only if that rider is using the identical technique to yours.

n crowley said:

A smooth pedalling technique in TT's means being able to use the muscles to apply continuous maximum chaindrive power to the chainwheel at all times even when the pedals are passing through the dead spot area. You can estimate the power input of a rider as the cranks turn through the 360 degrees but only if that rider is using the identical technique to yours.

Noel, I think you and I are agreeing, but not stating it clearly. For instance, I agree completely with what you just said.

Applying maximal force through 180 degrees of the stroke with each opposing leg yields 360 degrees of constant force (or extremely close to constant). This would transmit to the chaindrive power.

The most logical place to attain 180 degrees is over the top of the stroke and down, when you consider where our muscular strength lies.