Pedal Advice

Welcome to the forum, Ed.

The performance difference between toe clips and clipless pedals has been debated for years, some folks say there isn't enough difference to matter and others will say that one or the other is much, much better.

I think one thing that can be said for sure is that if you go with clipless, you'll have a lot more pedal systems and shoes to choose from.

I switched over to clipless several years ago and while I don't think they improved my performance, they are very easy to use and look great.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by 64Paramount [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

...The performance difference between toe clips and clipless pedals has been debated for years, some folks say there isn't enough difference to matter and others will say that one or the other is much, much better....

+1 on the post above. As one who's argued pretty strongly that you won't instantly see a performance advantage measurable in watts or mph or time I still won't ride substantial distances or technical terrain or engage in full bore out of the saddle sprinting without a secure foot-pedal attachment and as far as attachment systems go a good clipless system is far easier to use than clips and straps.

Sounds conflicted, yeah I guess it seems that way, but there are a ton of benefits in terms of safety and bike handling and technical riding including high speed twisty descending, dealing with unexpectedly rough roads, bunny hopping road hazards and sprinting with full commitment that are made a lot easier and safer when your feet are in solid contact with the pedals. There are also subtle things that actually can help pedaling efficiency such as having your feet well placed on the pedals and not moving around to random positions as you ride. I see bike path riders all the time pushing away with their heels or arches, feet splayed out or all manner of inefficient placement of their feet that is solved quickly by a decent shoe-cleat-pedal system. And if you're going to have your shoes securely attached to your pedals its definitely good to have a system you can get into and out of in a hurry without reaching down to loosen straps, clipless systems rule in this department.

So yeah, clipless systems are a great addition to your bike and they'll probably make you feel more comfortable and safer, just don't expect a sudden couple of mph increase due to 'pulling up' or other often touted (and debunked) myths about pedaling efficiency. But if they let you sprint a hill out of the saddle without holding back or allow you to stay off your brakes on a twisty mountain descent because you're more confident and not getting tossed with each pavement bump then yeah you may see some faster times related to the pedal systems.

Bottom line, if you're going to ride a lot or ride in varied terrain then a good clipless shoe-cleat-pedal system is a good investment.

-Dave

Since nobody makes flat-soled leather cycling shoes and slotted cleats anymore, I recommend jumping right in and getting clip-in pedals and the appropriate shoes. They're much easier to use (and more comfortable) than toeclips, flat-soled leather shoes, and slotted cleats ever were, too.

I'm going to start out by saying that I don't ride clipless anymore. Just personal preference and over 40 years of riding with toe straps and clips. But for a new rider, I completely agree with the preceding three posts. Especially for someone who is going to be a serious or competitive cyclist. Clipless is the direction that cycling has gone for good reason. But I do like the fact that I can wear pretty much any shoes when I go riding (no, I don't get numb toes) and don't have to change shoes or put on cleat covers if I want to park and walk around a store, restaurant, or museum on my route. Also, the more cyclists that ride clipless means that there is less competition for the high quality early 1990's clip compatible platform pedals on eBay for old farts like me.

I will throw my two cents in. I'm new to road cycling as well. I am a runner also, not competitive with the elites but it's the sport I practice. I got my road bike and started with toe clips. I found that my heals were hurting a little but this might just be new muscles getting used. I went with the least expensive clipless system I could find. I don't like being attached to the bike when I'm stopping and starting in traffic but while riding, the difference is amazing. I can't say I've noticed any speed difference but it just feels better. If like oldbobcat says, I could find some toe clip specific shoes, I will go back but the stiff soles and secure feeling while riding is great. I just need more practice in traffic and if you're like me and a few people, be prepared for the zero mile per hour slow fall because you can't unclip from your pedal in time. It's embarrassing and painful at times. For you specifically, since you're planning to compete, I'd say you should at least give it a try. You can at least start out with a basic low end clipless setup that won't break the bank. Cycling is much more expensive than running.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by kdelong [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

But I do like the fact that I can wear pretty much any shoes when I go riding (no, I don't get numb toes) and don't have to change shoes or put on cleat covers if I want to park and walk around a store, restaurant, or museum on my route.

There's a good handful of single-sided clipless pedals out there—like the ever popular Shimano A530's—that let you ride with cleats on one side, and have a flat platform on the other if you're just going for a cruise down to the local.

I agree with most everything about what the Clipless People like. I can give more input.

I have been riding with clipless pedals for over 12 years now. I did start off with entry level SPD Shimano mountain bike style pedals with mountain bike style shoes. I started this way because they seemed to less expensive to buy into. With the added benefit of having shoes that were almost normal to walk in off the bike. Another benefit to the SPD Shimano mountain pedals is they are double sided, so you can clip in with less trouble. This was riding almost 100% on the road. I did buy into straight road shoes and pedals after a couple of years.

I also recently bought mid- level quality Mavic road shoes with Look pedals for my new (LOOK 566) bike. These made a huge difference over the crappy Ritcheys I had on the old bike. I strongly suggest you buy into clipless pedals and get more efficiency from your rides. I do believe you gain efficiency with them. In the range of 15-20%.

My old (Cannondale 800) bike has new flat pedals. Riding the old bike after the new pedals really shows the difference.

Regards,

Mike

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

+1 on the post above. As one who's argued pretty strongly that you won't instantly see a performance advantage measurable in watts or mph or time I still won't ride substantial distances or technical terrain or engage in full bore out of the saddle sprinting without a secure foot-pedal attachment and as far as attachment systems go a good clipless system is far easier to use than clips and straps....

-Dave

It isn't so much the pedal which affects power transfer efficiency but the shoe itself. There have been cycling shoes for toeclips just as there are ones for clipless systems. The commonality between them is the stiff sole and it is this, combined with the rigid enclosure of the foot, which provides much improved efficiency over flexible street or sand shoes.

Nowadays proper toeclip systems (like the old Shimano half cleated style) are rare outside of track racing (perhaps even track sprinting). Instead the "toeclip" (or perhaps they should be called "faux-clips"😉 systems we see now are lame and flimsy plastic clips screwed to the front of flat pedals, designed for use with walking shoes or sandshoes. They provide very minimal gain over flat pedals, and are difficult to get into.

Nowadays, if you want to ride a proper cycling shoe (and therefore get the improved efficiency) you have to go clipless. Clipless provides almost no improvement in efficiency over proper toeclips (with cycling shoes) but is a definite improvement over the faux-clips, and clipless trounces both on the ease-of-use front.

Excellent question and one that has opinions on all sides. The question I would as is what type of cycling will you be doing? Road bikes tend to favor the Look type of pedal system. MTB's favor the egg beater pedals, commuters, such as myself, either toe clips or SPD's. The key point is to find a system that you are most comfortable with. Remember also that clips, whatever you use, can increase your power significantly. I've heard some say by as much as 48%. What I stated above is not a hard and fast rule. MTB's use SPD's, roadies uses SPD's, commuters use nothing but platform pedals. Find what works best for you.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Moto700 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

...Remember also that clips, whatever you use, can increase your power significantly. I've heard some say by as much as 48%. ...

You may well have heard that, but it's simply not true.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You may well have heard that, but it's simply not true.

From my own experience with SPD's, yes.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Moto700 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

From my own experience with SPD's, yes.

Do you have any data to back that up or is it just that you felt more powerful?

Beyond the academic studies that make it highly unlikely someone can increase their sustainable power by nearly 50% (e.g. coyle et al 1991) I've got ride data that at least in my case shows almost no change in sustainable power when I ride platform pedals instead of my clipless system.

One of my Speedplay pedals seized up a while back so I slapped some no cleat, no clip, no strap platform pedals on my road bike and did my scheduled Threshold training on the same route I use week after week. Week to week my power varied by 10 to 15 watts over the course of the season. Comparing two rides on the same course within a few weeks of each other I sustained 312 watts for 20 minutes with the platform pedals and 314 with my clipless system or a whopping 2 watts less riding the platform pedals (in running shoes) vs the same route a couple of weeks earlier with my speedplays and road shoes. That's within the measurement error of commercial power meters and negligible from a performance standpoint. Here's the ride files for comparison:

[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

Yeah, I much prefer to ride with good road shoes and securely attached to the pedals with a good clipless system and there are many safety and comfort advantages that good pedal and shoe systems bring to cycling. But the talk of increased power, particularly something as great as nearly 50% just isn't borne out by pedaling studies or actual measured performance.

Perhaps if you slide your feet all around and pedal with your heels when you don't have your cleats for alignment then there could be some measurable differences but I'm still not buying a 50% increase in power resulting from your pedal system no matter what marketing departments might say. Riders just don't instantly go from sustaining 200 watts to sustaining 300 watts when they buy a pedal system.

-Dave

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Do you have any data to back that up or is it just that you felt more powerful?

Beyond the academic studies that make it highly unlikely someone can increase their sustainable power by nearly 50% (e.g. coyle et al 1991) I've got ride data that at least in my case shows almost no change in sustainable power when I ride platform pedals instead of my clipless system.

One of my Speedplay pedals seized up a while back so I slapped some no cleat, no clip, no strap platform pedals on my road bike and did my scheduled Threshold training on the same route I use week after week. Week to week my power varied by 10 to 15 watts over the course of the season. Comparing two rides on the same course within a few weeks of each other I sustained 312 watts for 20 minutes with the platform pedals and 314 with my clipless system or a whopping 2 watts less riding the platform pedals (in running shoes) vs the same route a couple of weeks earlier with my speedplays and road shoes. That's within the measurement error of commercial power meters and negligible from a performance standpoint. Here's the ride files for comparison:

[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

Yeah, I much prefer to ride with good road shoes and securely attached to the pedals with a good clipless system and there are many safety and comfort advantages that good pedal and shoe systems bring to cycling. But the talk of increased power, particularly something as great as nearly 50% just isn't borne out by pedaling studies or actual measured performance.

Perhaps if you slide your feet all around and pedal with your heels when you don't have your cleats for alignment then there could be some measurable differences but I'm still not buying a 50% increase in power resulting from your pedal system no matter what marketing departments might say. Riders just don't instantly go from sustaining 200 watts to sustaining 300 watts when they buy a pedal system.

-Dave

Nope, no data to support my statement. I just feel like I'm getting more power into the pedal. SPD's do allow me to get "toes down" for a bust of speed when I need. Try doing that on platforms. They also allow me to pull up while pushing down on the opposing pedal. Whether this means I am actually producing more power to the pedal I don't know and to me it doesn't matter. I feel as though I'm putting more into the pedal and that's good enough for me. BTW, I am not a performance cyclist, I am a full-time commuter and have no use for Look's. SPD's work just fine for me because they are compatible with several different types of shoes such as: http://www.keenfootwear.com/us/en/wall/shoes/men/pedal

I use Look pedals. I used to use toe clips.

I find running shoes much more comfortable on walks on steep sections of hills - 20 years ago. Or when my legs cramp up - first ride in the real mountains in 20 years. More efficient also.

Different horses for different courses. But it is all academic. You ride with what you have.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

I use Look pedals. I used to use toe clips.

I find running shoes much more comfortable on walks on steep sections of hills - 20 years ago. Or when my legs cramp up - first ride in the real mountains in 20 years. More efficient also.

Different horses for different courses. But it is all academic. You ride with what you have.

[IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/icon14.gif[/IMG]