Perineal Soreness

Is it soreness of the perinium, or of the sitbones? theres a difference. I had that in my perinmium so got rid of my 130cm saddle to a 147cm saddle that supports my sitbones. It appears i was supporting my body weight on my perinium. Problem solved. find a saddle that fits.

Brothrmark said:

I know this is a recurring thread... but- I've been experiencing some perineal soreness after about 2 hours in the saddle. No numbness or loss of sensation, but soreness. Right now I get two days a week to ride and each ride is 2-3 hours. I'm using a Specialized BG saddle with a minimal cutout area. I have the saddle in a neutral to slightly nose down position. I read that a nose up orientation might solve the problem but it seems counterintuitive to me. Thanks...

[Brother]Mark

FREDBLACK said:

Is it soreness of the perinium, or of the sitbones?

Its the perinium, at the base of mr. johnson. Other than that the saddle actually feels pretty good. I changed from a nose up to a nose down orientation because of some numbness, but I keep reading that its an "incorrect" position. I'm reluctant to keep trying new saddles, searching for the perfect one... I'll afraid I'll look like the cycling version of Imelda Marcos...

I think you need a wider saddle then. Based on my (recent) experience if you support your body weight on your sitbones, the perinium would not be disturbed. Otherwise, if the saddle is too narrow to accomodate your sitbone, no adjustment is going to fix that.

Brothrmark said:

Its the perinium, at the base of mr. johnson. Other than that the saddle actually feels pretty good. I changed from a nose up to a nose down orientation because of some numbness, but I keep reading that its an "incorrect" position. I'm reluctant to keep trying new saddles, searching for the perfect one... I'll afraid I'll look like the cycling version of Imelda Marcos...

Thanks for the advice...

I'll visit my LBS and see if they can fit me for a saddle. I know Specialized has different widths available in a couple models.

Brothrmark said:

Its the perinium, at the base of mr. johnson. Other than that the saddle actually feels pretty good. I changed from a nose up to a nose down orientation because of some numbness, but I keep reading that its an "incorrect" position. I'm reluctant to keep trying new saddles, searching for the perfect one... I'll afraid I'll look like the cycling version of Imelda Marcos...

The nose up position is not only counter-intuitive, I have to believe is the result of regular folks trying to emulate the saddle position intended for comfort when going downhill by European racers -- you know, those long descents on mountain roads in European road races ... this nose-up position is, of course, most pronounced with the saddles on actual downhill bikes. It's a long tradition of people wanting to be-like-Mike and wear Air Jordans, etc. ...

People who say they feel like they are sliding off the front of their saddle when it is in a slightly nose-down position need to re-think their entire body position on their bikes ... AS IN, their top tubes and/or stems are probably too long!

The "classic" Avocet saddle addressed this by having two bumps on the back 1/3rd of the saddle to elevate the perinium ...

When in doubt, get a leather saddle ... of course, you have to position those properly, too ... it's a love-hate situation with leather saddles.

AND, wider IS probably better, which IS one of the reasons that many people find a BROOKS (for example) leather saddle to be generally more comfortable. So called women's saddles aren't just for women.

The Selle Italia FLITE series of saddles is almost as wide as the Fizik women's saddles by my reckoning ...

Alfeng said: "have to believe is the result of regular folks trying to emulate the saddle position intended for comfort when going downhill by European racers -- you know, those long descents on mountain roads in European road races"

Umm, if you're spending multiple hours in the saddle and climbing BIG climbs, you don't set your saddle for comfort on the descents where it doesn't matter a damn...
I've always set my saddle up horizontal, but when I think about it, I'm sure I only do it that way because I've always done it that way, rather than through any conviction of ergonomic superiority! Works for me though, so I'm sticking with it. I would have thought a difference of a couple of degrees either way is going to be more or less noticeable depending on the rest of your riding position – on a lo-pro TT bike, no way are you going to want the nose of your saddle above horizontal, but on a sit up and beg tourer it might be more comfortable.
I would say that it's worth looking at seat height though. I've got a cracked tibia and a load of twisted ligaments at the moment courtesy of a motorcycle crash a few weeks ago, and I've just this week started back gently on the turbo trainer to get everything moving again. For the first few days I had to have my saddle a couple of cm higher than usual because my knee wouldn't flex enough at the top of the pedal stroke. For those few days I was less confortable in the saddle than I can remember for years, and suffered numbness enough to make me fear for the weekend's entertainment - again, never really had that before.
Yesterday I put the seat back down to normal height and no problems at all. Worth noting that I usually have my seat a little on the low side as I find it more comfortable for climbing - even 2cm up it was within what most 'authorities' would consider the normal range.

alfeng said:

The nose up position is not only counter-intuitive, I have to believe is the result of regular folks trying to emulate the saddle position intended for comfort when going downhill by European racers -- you know, those long descents on mountain roads in European road races ... this nose-up position is, of course, most pronounced with the saddles on actual downhill bikes. It's a long tradition of people wanting to be-like-Mike and wear Air Jordans, etc. ...

People who say they feel like they are sliding off the front of their saddle when it is in a slightly nose-down position need to re-think their entire body position on their bikes ... AS IN, their top tubes and/or stems are probably too long!

The "classic" Avocet saddle addressed this by having two bumps on the back 1/3rd of the saddle to elevate the perinium ...

When in doubt, get a leather saddle ... of course, you have to position those properly, too ... it's a love-hate situation with leather saddles.

AND, wider IS probably better, which IS one of the reasons that many people find a BROOKS (for example) leather saddle to be generally more comfortable. So called women's saddles aren't just for women.

The Selle Italia FLITE series of saddles is almost as wide as the Fizik women's saddles by my reckoning ...

The stuff about tilting the saddle up to the front to emulate pro road racers is rubbish I'm afraid. As Eastway82 pointed out, they spend a hell of a lot more time going uphill or on the flat than they do going downhill and generally gain little advantage in racing terms. Why would they set up their saddles specifically for downhill sections?? 😕
Anyway, when they go downhill they usually have their arses in the air with their heads down around their hands....
The general wisdom on saddle angle to set it up somewhere between perfectly horizontal and tilting slightly to the back. And, yes, tilting it even slightly forward will put extra pressure on your wrists over the course of a long ride.

Your point about general body position eg. stem height, general bike fit, is a very good one.

See Sheldon Brown on the subject:
http://sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html#angle
http://sheldonbrown.com/pain

I came back from a 1.5 hour ride today and for the first time ever felt some serious numbing downstairs (actually, I realized it about 3/4 of the way through the ride and tried to shift around and stand to allow sensation to return). I've made the determination to go to my LBS tomorrow and have them take a look at my setup.

I've only been riding seriously now for this season (bought my first road bike in April), so I've been trying to tweak the adjustment of my seat to maximize my efficiency on the pedal- and I think this may have at least something to do with it.

My question is this- is the saddle that comes standard on most road bikes (I have a LeMond Croix de Fer, btw) generally a little sub standard? I mean, should I look to upgrade? Since I JUST bought this bike, I'm not looking to spend more dough on it, but if it will save my ability to father children in the future, then I guess I'll cough up the money.

was7g said:

My question is this- is the saddle that comes standard on most road bikes (I have a LeMond Croix de Fer, btw) generally a little sub standard? I mean, should I look to upgrade? Since I JUST bought this bike, I'm not looking to spend more dough on it, but if it will save my ability to father children in the future, then I guess I'll cough up the money.

It could be that the saddle is not right for you, but it might just be the position of the saddle (or, more accurately, the position of you on the saddle). As has already been mentioned, if the saddle is too narrow for you, no amount of tweaking position will help. In my case, I was sitting too far forward on the saddle. The first time I went back to the LBS, they saw that my knees were in the appropriate position compared to the center of the pedal, but they missed the fact that I was sitting too far forward on the saddle to achieve the "proper" position in relationship to the pedals. Eventually, we figured out that my problem was that the saddle needed to be moved forward to put my sit bones and knees in the proper places at the same time.

Tonto said:

The stuff about tilting the saddle up to the front to emulate pro road racers is rubbish I'm afraid. As Eastway82 pointed out, they spend a hell of a lot more time going uphill or on the flat than they do going downhill and generally gain little advantage in racing terms. Why would they set up their saddles specifically for downhill sections?? 😕
Anyway, when they go downhill they usually have their arses in the air with their heads down around their hands....
The general wisdom on saddle angle to set it up somewhere between perfectly horizontal and tilting slightly to the back. And, yes, tilting it even slightly forward will put extra pressure on your wrists over the course of a long ride.

Your point about general body position eg. stem height, general bike fit, is a very good one.

See Sheldon Brown on the subject:
sheldonbrown.comsaddles.htmlOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.compainOpen ↗

Well, I hope that you realize that citing the "general wisdom" as a basis for doing ANYTHING is often a weak argument ...

In fact, not to stray too far from the topic, but the "general wisdom" of knee/pedal position has been dispelled by none other than Keith Bontrager -- sheldonbrown.comkops.htmlOpen ↗ wherein he debunks the KOPS positioning.

Further, "general wisdom" as promulgated by RUNNERS WORLD during the 70s (and, for who knows how long thereafter) that you should hit heel first when running is due to the editor(s) ignorance -- (t)he(y) was/(were) wrong then and is wrong now. But, you had to BE THERE when the University of Oregon coach explained why he designed the original flared heel shoe vs. conjecture by the editor. And subsequently, many people have had to log a decade or two of constant running before their knees were shot enough to realize that there may be something wrong with the "general wisdom."

That chamois in the shorts wasn't intended for padding to compensate for discomfort ... it was originally to absorb moisture & provide a barrier to the wool fabric ...

Weren't Pro riders in the saddle for LONGER periods in the past if only because they were going at a slower pace?

Recent lamentation about crotch numbness ... E.D. problems ... whatever ... hey, I'm not saying you can't ride with the nose of the saddle pointed up ... and, I'm also not saying that there is a correlation between the maladies which people suffer and a saddle whose nose is pointed upward ...

Yet, the flared heel on running shoes got progressively larger & wider because of incorrect information which has resulted in thousands of runners who no longer can run due to knee damage ... and, the chamois in bicycle shorts now comes in all sorts of compensatory padding material & shapes ...

Now, with regard to how long a Pro rider is ascending vs. descending ... of course, the ascent probably takes at least 3x as long as the descent ... but, the rider does NOT generally move about while descending whereas he is frequently getting out of the saddle when the tempo changes. With the Pro rider's handlebars already significantly below the saddle, having the saddle pointing up would make it close to level during the descent AND provide a PSYCHOLOGICALLY more comfortable platform than one which began as level or slightly nose down when the bike was on a level surface. The EXTREME presentation of that saddle positioning is how DOWNHILLERS set their saddles so that their saddles are essentially LEVEL when the bike is moving in its intended direction.

FWIW. Still, despite the protests, I was JUST pointing out that setting up the saddle for the descent is the ONLY rationale which I could come up with for the uncomfortable-to/for-me nose-up saddle positioning ... and, that many riders (not necessarily those who have responded in this Forum) simply position their saddle with the nose pointed slightly upward because they haven't been presented with a different option.

So, now, I have say that whatever saddle position works for you (generic "you"😉 is fine with me ...

AND, as a disclaimer, my observation is often just that ... potentially, flawed logic which rails against the "general wisdom" ... but, some people used to think that the world was flat, too, because that was the "general wisdom."

alfeng said:

In fact, not to stray too far from the topic, but the "general wisdom" of knee/pedal position has been dispelled by none other than Keith Bontrager -- sheldonbrown.comkops.htmlOpen ↗ wherein he debunks the KOPS positioning.

That's a great link, loved it. Got to say thoug: Mr Bontrager certainly goes into a hell of a lot of well-argued detail, and he's persuasive, but he wasn't first to debunk the KOPS thing by a long chalk. Caude Grenzling, who did a lot of pioneering work in the seventies and eighties on analysing position and performance (especially with Hinault), was adamant that while the the KOPS method was useful because it at least avoided having the rider seated too far forward, it could only ever be a very rough guideline as it was always measured in a static state and didn't take into account the way the rider's position changed under working conditions or, for example, when he got out of the saddle. He said it should only ever be used as a starting point, not a dogma. That's the way I've always used it - I usually end up sitting a fair way further back than KOPS would suggest.

My point about the nose-up saddle for descending, by the way (and let's not get mired in this - I know you're not advocating a nose up position, just trying to explain it), was not that it might not have some potential tiny advantage, but that no one in their right mind would compromise their climbing position in order to get that miniscule advantage, if it meant they climbed slower or less comfortably. Ipso, if they have a nose-up saddle attitude (and it's not something I've ever noticed on pros' bikes) then it's nothing to do with descending. You mention dowhillers, and the clue's in the name - they don't have to ride back up again... :-)

was7g said:

I came back from a 1.5 hour ride today and for the first time ever felt some serious numbing downstairs (actually, I realized it about 3/4 of the way through the ride and tried to shift around and stand to allow sensation to return). I've made the determination to go to my LBS tomorrow and have them take a look at my setup.

I've only been riding seriously now for this season (bought my first road bike in April), so I've been trying to tweak the adjustment of my seat to maximize my efficiency on the pedal- and I think this may have at least something to do with it.

My question is this- is the saddle that comes standard on most road bikes (I have a LeMond Croix de Fer, btw) generally a little sub standard? I mean, should I look to upgrade? Since I JUST bought this bike, I'm not looking to spend more dough on it, but if it will save my ability to father children in the future, then I guess I'll cough up the money.

I don't really like Bontrager's seats. For some reason my anatomy just isn't fit for them. The first thing I did with my Madone was get a new saddle. Like said above, I'd go to your LBS and see what they say about positioning. If it can be positioned to a point of no numbness or irritation, great, if it can't I'd recommend a Specialized Toupe. If you look at some of the previous threads, people seem to love this saddle. I've been riding it for 400ish miles and it seems pretty good. It fits well but I do get a little bit of soreness, but not enough to really make a difference. I don't think there is an "absolutely perfect" saddle out there (keeping light weight thoughts on mind). While on the topic of "groinal" issues, I recommend getting a bottle of chamois creme. I use "Chamois Butt'r". It's nice stuff to prevent chafing.

alfeng said:

Well, I hope that you realize that citing the "general wisdom" as a basis for doing ANYTHING is often a weak argument ...

In fact, not to stray too far from the topic, but the "general wisdom" of knee/pedal position has been dispelled by none other than Keith Bontrager -- sheldonbrown.comkops.htmlOpen ↗ wherein he debunks the KOPS positioning.

Further, "general wisdom" as promulgated by RUNNERS WORLD during the 70s (and, for who knows how long thereafter) that you should hit heel first when running is due to the editor(s) ignorance -- (t)he(y) was/(were) wrong then and is wrong now. But, you had to BE THERE when the University of Oregon coach explained why he designed the original flared heel shoe vs. conjecture by the editor. And subsequently, many people have had to log a decade or two of constant running before their knees were shot enough to realize that there may be something wrong with the "general wisdom."

That chamois in the shorts wasn't intended for padding to compensate for discomfort ... it was originally to absorb moisture & provide a barrier to the wool fabric ...

Weren't Pro riders in the saddle for LONGER periods in the past if only because they were going at a slower pace?

Recent lamentation about crotch numbness ... E.D. problems ... whatever ... hey, I'm not saying you can't ride with the nose of the saddle pointed up ... and, I'm also not saying that there is a correlation between the maladies which people suffer and a saddle whose nose is pointed upward ...

Yet, the flared heel on running shoes got progressively larger & wider because of incorrect information which has resulted in thousands of runners who no longer can run due to knee damage ... and, the chamois in bicycle shorts now comes in all sorts of compensatory padding material & shapes ...

Now, with regard to how long a Pro rider is ascending vs. descending ... of course, the ascent probably takes at least 3x as long as the descent ... but, the rider does NOT generally move about while descending whereas he is frequently getting out of the saddle when the tempo changes. With the Pro rider's handlebars already significantly below the saddle, having the saddle pointing up would make it close to level during the descent AND provide a PSYCHOLOGICALLY more comfortable platform than one which began as level or slightly nose down when the bike was on a level surface. The EXTREME presentation of that saddle positioning is how DOWNHILLERS set their saddles so that their saddles are essentially LEVEL when the bike is moving in its intended direction.

FWIW. Still, despite the protests, I was JUST pointing out that setting up the saddle for the descent is the ONLY rationale which I could come up with for the uncomfortable-to/for-me nose-up saddle positioning ... and, that many riders (not necessarily those who have responded in this Forum) simply position their saddle with the nose pointed slightly upward because they haven't been presented with a different option.

So, now, I have say that whatever saddle position works for you (generic "you"😉 is fine with me ...

AND, as a disclaimer, my observation is often just that ... potentially, flawed logic which rails against the "general wisdom" ... but, some people used to think that the world was flat, too, because that was the "general wisdom."

Wow you have way too much time on your hands. What running shoes have to do with perineal pain I don't know. To be honest I skipped through the first few paragraphs, but the third last paragraph is hillarious. Your obsession with riding downhill is weird. Do you live in a world like that Miller ad where the guy only ever has to cycle downhill?

Tonto said:

Wow you have way too much time on your hands. What running shoes have to do with perineal pain I don't know. To be honest I skipped through the first few paragraphs, but the third last paragraph is hillarious. Your obsession with riding downhill is weird. Do you live in a world like that Miller ad where the guy only ever has to cycle downhill?

Knot fer nutt'n, but, literacy is a two-way street ... the writer & reader both have to participate in a meaninfgul way ...

So, when a matter requires exposition beyond what was originally presented, then some foundational material is sometimes a requisite (i.e., "required"😉.

BUT, having said that ... SORRY TO HAVE BEEN SO WORDY.

Sometimes, MY eyes glaze over when I'm reading some other responses, too!

BTW. "The hip bone is connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone is connected to the knee bone ..."

alfeng said:

Knot fer nutt'n, but, literacy is a two-way street ... the writer & reader both have to participate in a meaninfgul way ...

So, when a matter requires exposition beyond what was originally presented, then some foundational material is sometimes a requisite (i.e., "required"😉.

BUT, having said that ... SORRY TO HAVE BEEN SO WORDY.

Sometimes, MY eyes glaze over when I'm reading some other responses, too!

BTW. "The hip bone is connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone is connected to the knee bone ..."

Ah sorry....having reread my last post it does come off as a little snotty.
You do have a way with words Sir....have a good one 🙂