Phils with threaded flange?

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Scott Gordo said:

Came across this ebay interesting listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-PHIL-WOOD-FLOATING-FLANGE-HUBS-FIXIE-
BMX_W0QQ
itemZ250231579445QQihZ015QQcategoryZ56197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZ
ViewItem

It's for a front and rear hub, the front labeled Phil, the rear looks
a lot like a Phil but has a threaded driveside flange. They're being
sold as track hubs, but... I can't figure it out. No reduced radius
for a lockring. And, if I'm reading it right, the threading changes,
preventing the flange from moving too far out.

Anyone have any clues about these? I'm mystified.

Looks like a one-off. It's an original style Phil hubset which
consisted of aluminum flanges pressed onto a steel hub body. I've never
seen one like this, IMHO it's a shaky idea. It's clearly not a track
hub because there is no provision for a lockring. You'd only use this
with a freewheel, which you'd have to mount first and then spin the
flange out to snug up against, before you could calculate spoke length
and to be able to build your wheel. And that process would be a pain in
the ass.

I think there's a reason you've never seen another hub like this one...

Hmm, I forgot to look- this listing isn't dated 4/1/08, is it?

Scott Gordo said:

Came across this ebay interesting listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-PHIL-WOOD-FLOATING-FLANGE-HUBS-FIXIE...

It's for a front and rear hub, the front labeled Phil, the rear looks
a lot like a Phil but has a threaded driveside flange. They're being
sold as track hubs, but... I can't figure it out. No reduced radius
for a lockring. And, if I'm reading it right, the threading changes,
preventing the flange from moving too far out.

Anyone have any clues about these? I'm mystified.

Eeek. Run from that eBay seller! Prototype 1950s track hubs? Phil
made his first set of hubs in about '71 IIRC for sale by Spence Wolf
at Cupertino Bikes. His son, Barry Wood, was a buddy of mine at LGHS
back then. I was in to bikes and saw most of his products and never
saw anything like that -- nor would there be any reason to produce
something like it AFAIK.

Anyway, that looks like a broken hub. Turn the flange around, spin it
down with some Locktite, and you have a five speed, threaded freewheel
hub. I had a bunch of those and still have a couple in the basement.
I'll go home tonight to look at my old threaded five speed Phil hub,
but IMO, that's just a hub in need of repair. And yes, all of Phil's
track hubs had threading for a lock ring. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Scott Gordo said:

Came across this ebay interesting listing:

Quoted message said:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-PHIL-WOOD-FLOATING-FLANGE-HUBS-FIXIE...

Quoted message said:

It's for a front and rear hub, the front labeled Phil, the rear looks
a lot like a Phil but has a threaded driveside flange. They're being
sold as track hubs, but... I can't figure it out. No reduced radius
for a lockring. And, if I'm reading it right, the threading changes,
preventing the flange from moving too far out.

Quoted message said:

Anyone have any clues about these? I'm mystified.

Eeek.  Run from that eBay seller!  Prototype 1950s track hubs?  Phil
made his first set of hubs in about '71 IIRC for sale by Spence Wolf
at Cupertino Bikes.  His son, Barry Wood, was a buddy of mine at LGHS
back then.  I was in to bikes and saw most of his products and never
saw anything like that -- nor would there be any reason to produce
something like it AFAIK.

Anyway, that looks like a broken hub.  Turn the flange around, spin it
down with some Locktite, and you have a five speed, threaded freewheel
hub. I had a bunch of those and still have a couple in the basement.
I'll go home tonight to look at my old threaded five speed Phil hub,
but IMO, that's just a hub in need of repair. And yes, all of Phil's
track hubs had threading for a lock ring. -- Jay Beattie.

Just looked at my early 70s low flange Phil Wood rear hub - the drive
side flange is mounted in the same orientation as that in the ebay
photos (straight up and down on the inner face, with a cylindrical
extension at the inner diameter on the outer face). That extension is
what the freewheel butts up against. Mine does show threads on the
body of the hub to the inside of the drive side flange, but only about
one thread, so much less thread showing than on the ebay photo that
has the two flanges as far apart as possible. At the same time, mine
has several more threads showing on the freewheel side than the ebay
photo does - in fact, about the number of threads you'd expect a
freewheel hub to have. Mine's laced to a rim, so can't try to turn the
drive side flange with respect to the body; not sure I'd want to
anyway - might make mine just as broken as the one on ebay!
Kerry

Scott Gordo said:

Came across this ebay interesting listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-PHIL-WOOD-FLOATING-FLANGE-HUBS-FIXIE...

It's for a front and rear hub, the front labeled Phil, the rear looks
a lot like a Phil but has a threaded driveside flange. They're being
sold as track hubs, but... I can't figure it out. No reduced radius
for a lockring. And, if I'm reading it right, the threading changes,
preventing the flange from moving too far out.

Anyone have any clues about these? I'm mystified.

Old Phil hubs used flanges that were threaded onto the hub shells
(which were made of stainless steel). I have owned a couple of such
hubs, because I inevitably fall into the company of bike advocacy
organizations that accept donated bikes and equipment.

One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team doing a
hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such construction,
and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the drive flange screwed
further up the shell.

Chalo

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team doing a
hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such construction,
and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the drive flange screwed
further up the shell.

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen? The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots and
lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like centimeters.

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team doing a
hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such construction,
and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the drive flange screwed
further up the shell.

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen?  The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots and
lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like centimeters.

That was the lore in the '70s -- although it never happened to me or
anyone else I knew. It always seemed to me back then that there was a
need to tell tales about equipment. Everyone rode the same Campy NR/
SR. Nothing worked that well or broke that much, so we had to invent
big differences and lore -- like people who could feel the difference
between 3 and 4 cross.-- Jay Beattie.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jay Beattie said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team
doing a hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such
construction, and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the
drive flange screwed further up the shell.

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen?  The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots
and lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like
centimeters.

That was the lore in the '70s -- although it never happened to me or
anyone else I knew. It always seemed to me back then that there was
a need to tell tales about equipment. Everyone rode the same Campy
NR/ SR. Nothing worked that well or broke that much, so we had to
invent big differences and lore -- like people who could feel the
difference between 3 and 4 cross.-- Jay Beattie.

Seems to me, from reading this newsgroup and other places, that this
really hasn't changed all that much. "Rigid but compliant" is still
part of the cyclist's vocabulary.

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team doing a
hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such construction,
and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the drive flange screwed
further up the shell.

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen? The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots and
lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like centimeters.

Half-radial construction would certainly increase the opportunity for
problems, but I don't think that detail was stipulated in the tale I
heard.

Chalo

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jay Beattie said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chalo <[email hidden]> wrote:
> One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team
> doing a hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such
> construction, and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the
> drive flange screwed further up the shell.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen?  The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots
and lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like
centimeters.

Quoted message said:

That was the lore in the '70s -- although it never happened to me or
anyone else I knew.  It always seemed to me back then that there was
a need to tell tales about equipment.  Everyone rode the same Campy
NR/ SR.  Nothing worked that well or broke that much, so we had to
invent big differences and lore -- like people who could feel the
difference between 3 and 4 cross.-- Jay Beattie.

Seems to me, from reading this newsgroup and other places, that this
really hasn't changed all that much.  "Rigid but compliant" is still
part of the cyclist's vocabulary.- Hide quoted text -

And warm in the winter and cool in the summer. I was thinking about
how little variety there was back in the day. Everyone who was anyone
rode Campy, and the only real question was whether you would get it
with holes -- or in black. Campy in black and with holes was the
pinnacle of consumerism (apart from silk tires). No body attributed
magical properties to the holes, though -- unlike the stuff we see
today that claims to be rigid and complaint, etc. The marketing
claims have to be pretty extreme nowadays to make something standout
from the crowd.. -- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie said:

Tim McNamara said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team doing a
hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such construction,
and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the drive flange screwed
further up the shell.

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen? The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots and
lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like centimeters.

That was the lore in the '70s -- although it never happened to me or
anyone else I knew. It always seemed to me back then that there was a
need to tell tales about equipment. Everyone rode the same Campy NR/
SR. Nothing worked that well or broke that much, so we had to invent
big differences and lore -- like people who could feel the difference
between 3 and 4 cross.-- Jay Beattie.

"It" happened to me twice (tandem, circa 1982). But let me explain -
the flange the freewheel rests against didn't turn, it was simply forced
inward over its threads (ripping out the aluminum threads in the
process. The spokes would /not/ allow the flange to turn, no.

These were both even earlier Phil hubs, where the flange had a ?chamfer?
on the inner face. Hmmm... how to describe it? The flange-shell
interface was narrower than later models when measured along the axle
direction because the flange inner diameter was cut away for, oh, say
3-6mm on the inner face. Crude ASCII art below

____
| |
| |
| | <-crude aluminum flange cross-section
| \__ (NOT! to scale!)
___\_______|_____
|
| <- stainless hub shell
|

We sent the first one [1] back to Phil and were told they'd seen the
problem before, and were working on a new design. Of course they
replaced our hub with the new kind. To my eyes at least, the only
change was that the inner face of the flange went straight down to the
shell, increasing the number of acting threads. We killed a second
original-design hub in the next year or so, and that one was replaced by
Phil as well (we had both a 48-spoke set of touring wheels and a pair of
36-spoke fast/light wheels.)

[1] Killed the first one on our tandem at the Fargo Street Hill climb in
LA with a one-to-one gear and youthful enthusiasm. It died with just
one pedal stoke that was way too hard. Second one died on a steep bit
on a century ride. In both cases, suddenly the bike slowed and the
pedaling "went soft" - it was clear that if we torqued on the cranks,
the freewheel was turning faster than the wheel was. In the first case
we probably only went about one turn of the cranks (hence one of the
freewheel), it was a sickening feeling. In the second case somehow we
limped back to the start of the ride (by a severe shortcut), so
apparently we didn't toast the threads so badly. I'm not sure how that
makes sense, perhaps we bottomed the freewheel on the hub shell. In
neither case did the wheel collapse, but both were strong and treated
very gingerly after the "smoosh". No problems at all with the two
replacements, and we've since put over ten thousand miles, some very
steep, on them.

I have absolutely no idea how the Ebay/OP hub broke, but it doesn't look
like it was in use, the failure mode that we experienced was radically
different.

Mark J.

Mark said:

Jay Beattie said:

Tim McNamara said:

Chalo wrote:
>
> One of my friends has an anecdote about a triplet racing team doing a
> hillclimb event with high-spoke-count Phil hubs of such construction,
> and quickly collapsing their rear wheel when the drive flange screwed
> further up the shell.

I wondered about that possibility looking at the photos, but can it
actually happen? The trailing spokes would have to stretch lots and
lots to allow the flange to rotate on the hub shell, like centimeters.

That was the lore in the '70s -- although it never happened to me or
anyone else I knew. It always seemed to me back then that there was a
need to tell tales about equipment. Everyone rode the same Campy NR/
SR. Nothing worked that well or broke that much, so we had to invent
big differences and lore -- like people who could feel the difference
between 3 and 4 cross.-- Jay Beattie.

"It" happened to me twice (tandem, circa 1982). But let me explain -
the flange the freewheel rests against didn't turn, it was simply forced
inward over its threads (ripping out the aluminum threads in the
process. The spokes would /not/ allow the flange to turn, no.

That explains the failure in my friend's tale much better. And it
makes sense, really-- the freewheel's steel threads should be strong
enough to shear an equal number of aluminum threads when they tighten
against each other hard enough.

Chalo