Pot hole perfect storm

[Doug Taylor]

We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
forget your basic road hazards.

So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
trash.

Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
if it were carbon?

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:58:22 -0400, Doug Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:
>And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
>if it were carbon?

No.

JT

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[Ted Bennett]

John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:58:22 -0400, Doug Taylor
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
> >if it were carbon?
>
> No.
>
> JT


Well, he did crack his handlebar in this incident. And I must say that
I find it a little alarming that such products are produced for the
purpose of using them on a bicycle, on roads which may have the
occasional big bump in them.

Are bicycles now only for use on glass-smooth surfaces?

--
Ted Bennett

 

[[email protected]]

Ted Bennett wrote:
> > On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:58:22 -0400, Doug Taylor
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
> > >if it were carbon?
> >
> > No.
>
> Well, he did crack his handlebar in this incident. And I must say that
> I find it a little alarming that such products are produced for the
> purpose of using them on a bicycle, on roads which may have the
> occasional big bump in them.
>
> Are bicycles now only for use on glass-smooth surfaces?

More to the point, if not riding on glass roads, why did the OP buy CF
bars?

I saw an aquaintence recently for the first time in a few years. Asked
how he'd been and he said he recently had 2 broken arms. CF bars on
mtn bike broke. Sheesh.

dkl

 

[jim beam]

Doug Taylor wrote:
> We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
> forget your basic road hazards.
>
> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked

do you have a pic? i'm interested in differentiating between cracked
and scratched.

> and now
> trash.
>
> Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
> spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
> expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
> clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
> failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
> if it were carbon?

i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
>> spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
>> expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
>> clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
>> failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
>> if it were carbon?
>
> i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
> fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

Please keep in mind that carbon can be damaged in ways that aren't obvious.
Don't assume they're fine without thoroughly checking them. For what it's
worth, I haven't seen carbon forks (or frames) damaged from hitting a
pothole, at least not one that could be ridden through, but I can assume
that it does happen... it's certainly happened in the past to frames made of
other materials. Everything has its limits.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>> We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
>> forget your basic road hazards.
>>
>> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
>> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
>> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
>> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
>> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
>> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked
>
> do you have a pic? i'm interested in differentiating between cracked and
> scratched.
>
>> and now
>> trash.
>>
>> Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
>> spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
>> expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
>> clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
>> failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
>> if it were carbon?
>
> i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
> fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
> trash.

That (the broken bar) concerns me. Is it possible the bars may have been
damaged previously from excessive torque on the fixing bolts?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
> forget your basic road hazards.
>
> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
> trash.
>
> Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
> spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
> expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
> clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
> failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
> if it were carbon?

 

[jim beam]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
>>>spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
>>>expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
>>>clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
>>>failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
>>>if it were carbon?
>>
>>i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
>>fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.
>
>
> Please keep in mind that carbon can be damaged in ways that aren't obvious.
> Don't assume they're fine without thoroughly checking them.

as general advice that's absolutely true. in my case, be assured that
this /was/ thoroughly inspected before reuse. my point was that carbon
is not necessarily a risk, and indeed, is frequently stronger than
conventional materials as evidenced by crash survival. i am certain
that a steel fork would have bent in my situation having had experience
of bending several steel forks in similar circumstances.

> For what it's
> worth, I haven't seen carbon forks (or frames) damaged from hitting a
> pothole, at least not one that could be ridden through, but I can assume
> that it does happen... it's certainly happened in the past to frames made of
> other materials. Everything has its limits.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Doug Taylor wrote:
>>
>>>We on rbt have learned to avoid squirrels and plastics bags, but don't
>>>forget your basic road hazards.
>>>
>>>So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
>>>folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
>>>in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
>>>over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
>>>rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
>>>whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked
>>
>>do you have a pic? i'm interested in differentiating between cracked and
>>scratched.
>>
>>
>>>and now
>>>trash.
>>>
>>>Wheel being repaired by the wheel guru at the LBS; hopefully it will
>>>spin without a hitch in it's circumference. Al in all, a pretty
>>>expensive little incident, but cheaper than a crash and a busted
>>>clavicle, I suppose. And somehow avoided a front wheel taco and fork
>>>failure. And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
>>>if it were carbon?
>>
>>i destroyed two wheels in a similar accident a few months back. carbon
>>fork survived perfectly and i'm still riding it. i weigh 205.
>
>
>

 

[Doug Taylor]

On Fri, 12 May 2006 04:16:24 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
>> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
>> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
>> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
>> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
>> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
>> trash.
>
>That (the broken bar) concerns me. Is it possible the bars may have been
>damaged previously from excessive torque on the fixing bolts?

This was a widely discussed topic in our club after the incident. To
respond to an earlier post, that there was a crack and not a scratch
was obvious before removing the bar tape because of the visible flex
in the bar when any weight was put on it. The crack was clearly
somewhere between the first bend in the bar and the brifter (left
side). More than one person opined that I must have over torqued the
bolt when attaching the brifter, thus scoring and weakeninging the
carbon at that point in the bar.

I rode back to the parking lot with hands on top of the bar, which was
intact. After removing the tape, the crack was revealed to be on the
bottom side of the bar at the first bend - well above the brifter - in
a place nowhere near any fixing bolt

Post script: I e-mailed Kestrel on the off-chance of a warranty
claim, but after they assured me that this "could not happen," they
blew me off because I had purchased the bar on e-bay (new in box) and
of course had dumped all the paperwork. Nothing against Kestrel and
not that I expected anything from them.

Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
e-bay, though no Kestrels were available. Don't know about the rest
of you, but virtually EVERY part (except chain, cables, and housing)
on all my bikes (2 road, 2 mountain) have been e-bay purchases, and
this cracked bar is the only issue I've had in the past 4 or 5
years.exceptt

 

[Werehatrack]

On 11 May 2006 19:30:30 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Ted Bennett wrote:
>> > On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:58:22 -0400, Doug Taylor
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >And, I wonder if at 175 lbs I would have cracked the frame
>> > >if it were carbon?
>> >
>> > No.
>>
>> Well, he did crack his handlebar in this incident. And I must say that
>> I find it a little alarming that such products are produced for the
>> purpose of using them on a bicycle, on roads which may have the
>> occasional big bump in them.
>>
>> Are bicycles now only for use on glass-smooth surfaces?
>
>More to the point, if not riding on glass roads, why did the OP buy CF
>bars?
>
>I saw an aquaintence recently for the first time in a few years. Asked
>how he'd been and he said he recently had 2 broken arms. CF bars on
>mtn bike broke. Sheesh.

The phrase "stupid light" was coined for good reason.

The fact that something exists does not mean that one *must* use it.


--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Post script: I e-mailed Kestrel on the off-chance of a warranty
> claim, but after they assured me that this "could not happen," they
> blew me off because I had purchased the bar on e-bay (new in box) and
> of course had dumped all the paperwork. Nothing against Kestrel and
> not that I expected anything from them.
>
> Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
> e-bay, though no Kestrels were available. Don't know about the rest
> of you, but virtually EVERY part (except chain, cables, and housing)
> on all my bikes (2 road, 2 mountain) have been e-bay purchases, and
> this cracked bar is the only issue I've had in the past 4 or 5
> years.exceptt

Your post points out one potentially-significant issue with ebay purchases.
Many manufacturers do *not* warrant components purchased through eBay,
including Shimano and, apparently, Kestrel. No big deal with Shimano, as
there are few components they make which, if they failed, could cause
extremely-serious injury (sure, you hear about a crank once in a while, but
it's very rare). With such components as forks and handlebars, where a
failure could be pretty nasty, it's a good idea to have some deep-pockets
standing behind the product. Lawyers will seize upon any possible reason to
not be liable for a claim, and goods purchased through unauthorized channels
is most definitely one of them. Just something to consider. On the other
hand, if it's a major manufacturer and they have no issues with gray-market
stuff, no problem. Just check out their warranty policies on their website.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 12 May 2006 04:16:24 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
>>> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rider
>>> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
>>> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
>>> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
>>> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EMS Pro carbon bar cracked and now
>>> trash.
>>
>>That (the broken bar) concerns me. Is it possible the bars may have been
>>damaged previously from excessive torque on the fixing bolts?
>
> This was a widely discussed topic in our club after the incident. To
> respond to an earlier post, that there was a crack and not a scratch
> was obvious before removing the bar tape because of the visible flex
> in the bar when any weight was put on it. The crack was clearly
> somewhere between the first bend in the bar and the brifter (left
> side). More than one person opined that I must have over torqued the
> bolt when attaching the brifter, thus scoring and weakeninging the
> carbon at that point in the bar.
>
> I rode back to the parking lot with hands on top of the bar, which was
> intact. After removing the tape, the crack was revealed to be on the
> bottom side of the bar at the first bend - well above the brifter - in
> a place nowhere near any fixing bolt
>
> Post script: I e-mailed Kestrel on the off-chance of a warranty
> claim, but after they assured me that this "could not happen," they
> blew me off because I had purchased the bar on e-bay (new in box) and
> of course had dumped all the paperwork. Nothing against Kestrel and
> not that I expected anything from them.
>
> Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
> e-bay, though no Kestrels were available. Don't know about the rest
> of you, but virtually EVERY part (except chain, cables, and housing)
> on all my bikes (2 road, 2 mountain) have been e-bay purchases, and
> this cracked bar is the only issue I've had in the past 4 or 5
> years.exceptt
>

 

[Werehatrack]

On Fri, 12 May 2006 16:11:48 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Your post points out one potentially-significant issue with ebay purchases.
>Many manufacturers do *not* warrant components purchased through eBay,
>including Shimano and, apparently, Kestrel.

State law may negate such attempts to sidestep the issue, and nothing
keeps them from being held liable in court for damages due to a truly
defective (unrecalled) product's failure. Of course, in most cases,
it's going to cost more to take them to court than the likely
recovery, so they know that they're seldom going to face such a risk.

As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
> channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
> on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
> everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.

Absolutely true. But people need to be aware of it. Most aren't; hence the
number of people we get coming in with interesting failures that neither the
selling party nor manufacturer are willing to take care of. It does happen.
Could somebody force the issue legally (assuming the manufacturer has a
US-based presence)? Possibly, for a lot more trouble than it's probably
worth. But if you look at what's going on with various consumer items,
especially camera gear, you'll see an increasingly hard-nosed attitude about
such things.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Werehatrack" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 12 May 2006 16:11:48 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Your post points out one potentially-significant issue with ebay
>>purchases.
>>Many manufacturers do *not* warrant components purchased through eBay,
>>including Shimano and, apparently, Kestrel.
>
> State law may negate such attempts to sidestep the issue, and nothing
> keeps them from being held liable in court for damages due to a truly
> defective (unrecalled) product's failure. Of course, in most cases,
> it's going to cost more to take them to court than the likely
> recovery, so they know that they're seldom going to face such a risk.
>
> As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
> channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
> on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
> everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.
> --
> Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
> Some gardening required to reply via email.
> Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[41]

Doug Taylor wrote:

> >> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
> >> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rid er
> >> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
> >> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
> >> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
> >> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EM S Pro carbon bar cracked and now
> >> trash.

> Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
> e-bay, though no Kestrels were available.

Why? This is incomprehensible to me. You experienced an accident of the
sort that road bicycles must be expected to withstand. Your handlebar
did not. Either it was defective in manufacture, or the design specs
were defective. In either case, grounds to eliminate it from
consideration. Do you really think you will lose ANY speed if you
switched to a properly constructed aluminum alloy bar?

 

[Barnard Frederick]

Werehatrack says...

> As for whether it's essential to buy certain items through authorized
> channels so as to provide a clear path of warranty proof, it depends
> on your priorities and experience. That's a subjective matter, and
> everyone should make up their own mind about how to address it.

In other words, the money saved could be much greater than the
occasional rare warranty failure.

 

[Doug Taylor]

On 12 May 2006 15:43:50 -0700, "41" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Doug Taylor wrote:
>
>> >> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
>> >> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rid er
>> >> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
>> >> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
>> >> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
>> >> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EM S Pro carbon bar cracked and now
>> >> trash.
>
>> Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
>> e-bay, though no Kestrels were available.
>
>Why? This is incomprehensible to me. You experienced an accident of the
>sort that road bicycles must be expected to withstand. Your handlebar
>did not. Either it was defective in manufacture, or the design specs
>were defective. In either case, grounds to eliminate it from
>consideration. Do you really think you will lose ANY speed if you
>switched to a properly constructed aluminum alloy bar?

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've had a carbon bar
on my mountain bike for 4 or 5 years and carbon bar on my other road
bike for 3 years with absolutely no mishaps. What is incomprehensible
to me is your conclusion that a single instance of a carbon bar
failure is a condemnation of all carbon bars.

 

[41]

Doug Taylor wrote:
> On 12 May 2006 15:43:50 -0700, "41" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Doug Taylor wrote:
> >
> >> >> So I'm zipping along in a paceline last evening, and sometimes when
> >> >> folks are hammering they don't see things well, or at all. The rid er
> >> >> in front of me had no time to point at a pot hole, so I rode right
> >> >> over it with zero warning. Result: pinch flat front, pinch flat
> >> >> rear; huge dent in rear rim (brand new Ritchey), not to mention
> >> >> whacked way out of true; Kestrel EM S Pro carbon bar cracked and now
> >> >> trash.
> >
> >> Oh, and I immediately went online and purchased another carbon bar on
> >> e-bay, though no Kestrels were available.
> >
> >Why? This is incomprehensible to me. You experienced an accident of the
> >sort that road bicycles must be expected to withstand. Your handlebar
> >did not. Either it was defective in manufacture, or the design specs
> >were defective. In either case, grounds to eliminate it from
> >consideratio n. Do you really think you will lose ANY speed if you
> >switched to a properly constructed aluminum alloy bar?
>
> Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've had a carbon bar
> on my mountain bike for 4 or 5 years and carbon bar on my other road
> bike for 3 years with absolutely no mishaps. What is incomprehensible
> to me is your conclusion that a single instance of a carbon bar
> failure is a condemnation of all carbon bars.

It wasn't clear to me whether you were looking to buy another Kestrel,
or merely noting that they were not there, perhaps suggesting that
others had a similar experience. Suppose you were looking for another
Kestrel: then the point is that either their design or manufacture was
defective. Suppose you were looking for another carbon bar, but not
another Kestrel: then the point is, do you really think you will lose
ANY speed if you switched to a good aluminum bar, like a Nitto? You
can't know if the new carbon bar you bought is properly designed and
built until it fails or you retire it. You can know at purchase that a
Nitto or comparable will be, because the specs are proven and you can
inspect for defects.

 

[41]

41 wrote:
> Doug Taylor wrote:

> > Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I've had a carbon bar
> > on my mountain bike for 4 or 5 years and carbon bar on my other road
> > bike for 3 years with absolutely no mishaps. What is incomprehensible
> > to me is your conclusion that a single instance of a carbon bar
> > failure is a condemnation of all carbon bar s.
>
> It wasn't clear to me whether you were looking to buy another Kestrel,
> or merely noting that they were not there, perhaps suggesting that
> others had a similar experience. Suppose you were looking for another
> Kestrel: then the point is that e ither their design or manufacture was
> defective. Suppose you were looking for another carbon bar, but not
> another Kestrel: then the point is, do you really think you will lose
> ANY speed if you switched to a good aluminum bar, like a Nitto? You
> can't know if the new carbon bar you bought is properly designed and
> built until it fails or you retire it. You can know at purchase that a
> Nitto or comparable will be, because the specs are proven and you can
> inspect for defects.

Just to amplify what I wrote: use of two exemplars for 3-5 years is no
proof of concept, although for today's engineers it seems to be
considered so. Standard aluminum bars have been used by millions over
more than half a century. That concept is proven. It has NO substantive
disadvantages.