Power meter will show my weakneeses??

Getting a power meter convinced me that I needed to train less hard. I'm a big guy and through most of the fall of last year I spent most of my time riding in the hills turning myself inside-out. That's what I liked to do.

I got a power meter this spring, tested FTP (it was low) and then determined that when I rode in the hills I was essentially going into L6 and L7 at low cadences every time I rode anything reasonably steep, then I'd pop, recover, and then repeat. My legs would be shot the next day.

Since that time, I've starting doing more flat training rides focused on increasing threshold. My fitness is increasing and I've spent very little time riding at intensities higher than my FTP. My knees feel fine, but I do have a fair amount of fatigue. The power meter also helps to keep me honest when I'm on an active recovery ride.

If your TT performance is sub-par, that's a clear indicator that your FTP is low. A power meter will definitely help you improve that.

curby said:

Before you got the power meter did you train harder? not as hard? the same?

I constantly balance the amount of pressure my knees can stand without further damage while training every other day on the bike and other exercises on the off days to balance muscle strength for my whole body. If I ride too much in a week or too hard out of the saddle or push too hard on the climbs the knees swell up and hurt for several weeks until I baby them back in line...

So will a power meter likely show that I need to work harder? I typically get dropped from the lead group on long climbs (5+km) and regularly crest first on shorter ones. I do intervals but more cardio than power (knees). Also I am not a good time trialist, my teammates can average 40+kph while I can really only muster 37-38 for an extended period (over 30 mins).

SO the simple question (yeah right!) will I spend several hundred dollars to find that I need to blowout my knees to improve?

thanks for any data you can share

curby

It'll show you what you're doing. Nothing more, nothing less. Given an honest set of efforts you could compare your results with others or something like Dr Coggans power profiling to see where you're at.

I trained pretty much the same as I do now with a powermeter. The only major difference is that my effort is better paced and doesn't rely on subjective feelings - sometimes when you're grinding away into a headwind after 2 hours on a cold wet day and you think you're putting out ~260watts because if feels hard and you look down and you're dicking around at 210 you know you're not where you're supposed to be... time to turn those cranks a little faster. :p If you can't, then it's time to figure out why not!

On the hills it highlighted that on slopes with rapidly varying grades, PE was a huge red herring. Just because it hurts like hell doesn't mean I can't bang it into another gear and go faster when the pain stays the same and the power drops off just when the gradient does.

But all in all it's not a device that will require you to reinvent the wheel or make massive changes. It's there just to measure (and when you store the data - document) your efforts.

Used correctly, it simplifies things. Simple is good.

curby said:

Before you got the power meter did you train harder? not as hard? the same?

Since the PM, I train harder when I'm supposed to and easier when I need to. The PM has eliminated some guesswork. Learning to employ a PM led to me learning a lot more about phsyiology which has been great.

Now, when I do my interval work, it is much more targeted and evenly paced. If I'm to fatigued to hit my targets, I stop trying and change workout goals. My recovery rides are much easier.

I've cut way back on large group rides. Downloaded data from the PM showed me just how little work I was getting during those sessions.

curby said:

Before you got the power meter did you train harder? not as hard? the same?

I constantly balance the amount of pressure my knees can stand without further damage while training every other day on the bike and other exercises on the off days to balance muscle strength for my whole body. If I ride too much in a week or too hard out of the saddle or push too hard on the climbs the knees swell up and hurt for several weeks until I baby them back in line...

So will a power meter likely show that I need to work harder? I typically get dropped from the lead group on long climbs (5+km) and regularly crest first on shorter ones. I do intervals but more cardio than power (knees). Also I am not a good time trialist, my teammates can average 40+kph while I can really only muster 37-38 for an extended period (over 30 mins).

SO the simple question (yeah right!) will I spend several hundred dollars to find that I need to blowout my knees to improve?

thanks for any data you can share

curby

I think you're confusing using a power meter with pushing a very large gear, very slowly up a long hill or for a long time etc etc .i.e. the 1920's version of power training.

Using a power meter means training according to levels of intensity based on your threshold power, similar to what you are doing via heart rate, which is what I assume you mean with cardio intervals.

I think that giannip is on the right track. don't confuse power with "force" or "torque". Also sounds to me like you've got fit issues. Forget about the PM for now. Go see a PT and get fitted professionally.

Dave

I definately have fit issues, but no fitter I've visited has put me in a position that doesnt hurt my knees, they are damaged and surgery isnt gonna happen. But I can spin and thats what I've been doing for the last 3 years. Maybe I should give the 'training on a limited schedule' book a look, (even though I think I am cycling on borrowed time... 😉 )

So back to my original post, did you have to push harder on the pedals to meet your goals of 'power output' after you got your power meter?

thanks a lot for all posts

curby

curby said:

So back to my original post, did you have to push harder on the pedals to meet your goals of 'power output' after you got your power meter?

I kinda know what you're saying, and having a power meter definitely makes it more likely that someone will develop tangible wattage goals. That said, a PM is not going to dictate that you push harder on the pedals the meet those goals rather than spinning a faster cadence.

Bottomline: if your knees are giving you so much trouble then it doesn't sound like riding faster should really be a serious goal -- so why invest in training aids? If your knees could take it sounds like you'd already be training harder.

My answer to your original question is that I train harder now that I have a PM. The PM showed me that if I wanted to improve with the limited training time that I have, then I would have to ride harder than before. Additionally, I now view coasting as a complete waste of time. :o

fg: tnx for detailed answer, appreciated!

curby said:

So back to my original post, did you have to push harder on the pedals to meet your goals of 'power output' after you got your power meter?

I am going to take the "push harder on the pedals" component of your question literally. By that I mean that I'm assuming your asking if use of a PM has caused me to apply significantly more force (torque) to the pedals.

Remember that force (torque) is only 1 component of power with angular velocity (cadence) the other. One may increase power by increasing torque, increasing cadence, or both. Also note that the forces (torque) on the pedals are not quite what one might expect to see.

On the extreme end (for me anyway), I just competed in "street sprints this evening (~200m from a standing start). My peak torque was ~1300 lb-in or ~189 lbs peak force. Typically, in a L4/TT type of ride over rolling terrain I see ~29 lbs force on the pedals for an average. I gave up weight work for my legs years ago and I know that I used to be able to leg press ~900 lbs so 188 lbs peak and 29 lbs average are pretty "light".

What I'm getting at here is that the force on the pedals might not be what you should be looking at. Find a fitter that knows what they're doing. Better yet see a PT that is cycling cognizant.

So, do I pedal harder since using a PM? I don't really know because I don't have that kind of data from before using a PM. Like frenchyge, using a PM has enabled me to make the most out my very limited training time so I would say that "yes", the intensity of my rides increased with the use of a PM (and there's very little coasting) 😉

Dave

This is how I view training with a PM and it based much on my perceptions to discomfort, but it is also based on how I observed others training in a different sport.

People generally have a knack for backing off in discomfort. For me when I was using perception to govern my training before getting a PM I thought I was training hard or getting into those zones and since I did not have a PM to tell what I was actually doing my brain connected to a body sending signals of discomfort would impact training stress.

After getting a PM I then realized that higher L3 and up is even more discomforting than I perceived. Of course there was a part of me all along that was curious if I was limiting my effort based on this possibility of body, brain, discomfort and that is what led me into training with a PM. Now that my PM is messed up I am back to guessing and using RPE and it is aggravating.

I like how one member here who must have been associated with pro cycling (Urikola was his user name on this forum or something to that effect) who instead of using FT would say pain threshold when talking about guys like Lance. Those who can tolerate discomfort better for longer.

So my issue with RPE is that, in general, many people do not have great tolerance to discomfort and will be more apt to believe they are training in those upper zones when in truth they are not. The PM is a device (if it is working properly :mad🙂 that will have the user look at the truth of their effort level.

Of course there are some that are the opposite, like on this thread, that use the PM to train less hard, but either way it definitely helps get you to the right zone.

IMO

Felt_Rider said:

in general, many people do not have great tolerance to discomfort and will be more apt to believe they are training in those upper zones when in truth they are not.

+1, Good point.
Not only can someone think they are at lets say L5 judging from their 'pain feeling' but in reality be at L4, but someone who's in good form could also misjudge the other way and think they are in L3 because it feels easy, but in reality they are in L4. Same goes for other measurements such as speed. Sometimes you can ride and feel like you should be going 20mph judging from your effort, but in reality you're only doing 17mph.

That's the worst feeling, when you're pushing hard, and then you look down at your watts or speed, and you think you're at 220W and it shows 205W, or you think you're doing 20mph, and it shows 17. 😠😠

curby said:

So back to my original post, did you have to push harder on the pedals to meet your goals of 'power output' after you got your power meter?

thanks a lot for all posts

curby

It doesn't feel like a push harder. The level of perceived 'pain' is the same as it was when I was less fit - I just go a bit quicker.

It's easier to bang it in a huge gear to get the watts up in the short term - which is fine if you're in a position where you need more power NOW but in training that's not really the goal. The goal of training is to prepare yourself to achieve a defined goal via a predetermined path and I don't think anyone anymore recommends banging it in a huge gear and mashing away at 60rpm.

If you're in a race and its a block headwind and the only way you have to maintain your speed is to push hard at 70rpm then you gots to do what you gots to do. But if that was a training scenario you'd probably be better served keeping the revs up a little and try and keep the watts where you can sustain them and let the speed just sort itself out.

The two line version of all that:

In training use correct form and a sustainable power output for the session. Learn to relax under effort.

In racing do whatever you need to do to rip the other guys heads off.

Thanks to all for the detailed posts. I often equate power with pressure on the pedals but having never used a power meter I cannot speak from experience. My intervals now definitely leave me winded and 'hurt' but not pain in the knee joint, just a general seizing of the legs that makes them feel heavy and slow to turn over on the last few intervals.

all's'miles

curby