Power training VO2 max

acoggan said:

From your comment, I assume that you must know your actual VO2max as well as your cycling efficiency. If you don't, then you also don't know how much above your functional threshold power you need to train to be at VO2max.

Andy, how do we determine our VO2 max power output?

Quadsweep said:

Andy, how do we determine our VO2 max power output?

In a lab, they make you breathe into a machine while you pedal yourself to exhaustion. The machine measures your O2 utilization, and they correlate the power output from the bike with your max VO2 value.

frenchyge said:

In a lab, they make you breathe into a machine while you pedal yourself to exhaustion. The machine measures your O2 utilization, and they correlate the power output from the bike with your max VO2 value.

Sounds like fun[img]cyclingforums.comeek.gifOpen ↗[/img] How much does it cost? For now though I think I'll do what SolarEnergy said in this post.
"Think more in term of power/duration. 5 minutes is probably fine. Ramping up the power during the 1 minute is also probably fine. 3 to 5 reps of these is fine too.

You know, the goal for you as a rider isn't that much to know precisely at which % of FTP your pVO2Max is. You goal is to perform the best possible set of 3-5 reps, 5 minute each at an intensity that's between 90 and 100% of the max avg power you can generate over this duration."

QS, can I add that Andy's observation about HR (and his similar post on Topica) noted that we need to get our HR up to a certain level 5-10 beats below max. This is the true time spent in the zone.

**Note how HR now trumps power in this training protocol!

I went back and looked at many of my datasets and noted that I either did VO2Max workouts too hard and short, or too easy and long. If Andy's (untested) target is HR in a zone (his Z5 numbers seem to work well) this does change our perception of what a VO2 Max workout is.

What do we learn from this? A good warmup is important? Complete recovery to push up the HR into the zone, and then what do we do to keep it in the zone for a longer duration? What would the power profile of this interval look like?

I'll have to test this over the winter on the trainer, but I'm seeing hard jumps to the top of Z5 Power and then when HR reaches Z5 reduce power to maintain HR (to combat inter-interval cardiac drift).

Of course, if you just go as hard as you can for 5 minutes it may result in the same thing. But watch HR...if it drops out of Z5 interval is OVER. Ideas?

Spunout said:

**Note how HR now trumps power in this training protocol!

I'm not so sure about that. I could see HR being an indicator that you've 'made it' to VO2max, but are you any more confident in your HRmax target than you are in your pVO2max target? How is HRmax being determined again? 😉

Spunout said:

I went back and looked at many of my datasets and noted that I either did VO2Max workouts too hard and short, or too easy and long. If Andy's (untested) target is HR in a zone (his Z5 numbers seem to work well) this does change our perception of what a VO2 Max workout is.

Were you adhering to the guidelines that VO2max intervals be at least 3.5-5 minutes in duration, and it just took your heart longer than that to respond?

Spunout said:

What do we learn from this? A good warmup is important? Complete recovery to push up the HR into the zone, and then what do we do to keep it in the zone for a longer duration? What would the power profile of this interval look like?

I think using HR would be even more incentive to shorten the recovery periods in order to shorten the time to target. Complete recovery just means you'll have to hold power longer waiting for HR to climb.

Spunout said:

I'll have to test this over the winter on the trainer, but I'm seeing hard jumps to the top of Z5 Power and then when HR reaches Z5 reduce power to maintain HR (to combat inter-interval cardiac drift).

Of course, if you just go as hard as you can for 5 minutes it may result in the same thing. But watch HR...if it drops out of Z5 interval is OVER. Ideas?

The top of L5 (120% FTP) pretty much approximates pVO2max. If you drop power once HR enters the bottom of L5 then the only way HR is going to make target is via drift. OTOH, I could see ramping up power with HR and then nailing pVO2max once it enters L5 (or above) in order to drive HR to target.

acoggan said:

Our posts seem to be passing like ships in the night...

Yes, I would say that the common practice of doing 15-25 min of intervals at/near VO2max is really just a matter of trial-and-error, i.e., people do that much because that's about all they can routinely do.

Sorry to not being able to give any referenses, but I remember an article where Owen Anderson (Cycling Research News) referred to a study that concluded that the most important part of an VoM WO was the two first intervals, the rest was more or less "overkill", but tradition. Sorry if I've got this wrong... Does anyone else remember?

acoggan said:

From your comment, I assume that you must know your actual VO2max as well as your cycling efficiency. If you don't, then you also don't know how much above your functional threshold power you need to train to be at VO2max.

Actually, no I don't, I misread the original post as just how hard to do VO2max/L5 intervals versus FTP/L4 type work.