Pre-Race Meal - Liquid?

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

I am training for my first marathon and have been experimenting with
my pre-race & pre-training meal. I've not been consuming enough
calories and I've found I am running out of gas at the 18 to 20 mile
mark. I weigh 145, and am running at 7:45. I do a sports drink every
15 minutes, but it's not enough later on. Will add jels, but I want to
get started on the right foot.

Does anyone have a liquid pre-race breakfast they could share?

Ken

Slow down one MPM you moron. You're hitting the wall, a common
situation. Tell us what happens after 20 miles? Do you keep going, or
walk?

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

I am training for my first marathon and have been experimenting with
my pre-race & pre-training meal. I've not been consuming enough
calories and I've found I am running out of gas at the 18 to 20 mile
mark

This is usually a combination of limited training/mileage, and at this time
of year, summer heat. How much mileage are you running, and how long have
you been training like this for ? If you are doing less than 50 miles per
week, then that long run is about 50% or more of what you're capable of
doing in a week, so it will be very tiring.

Quoted message said:

. I weigh 145, and am running at 7:45.

This doesn't tell us anything, unless we know how fast you are. What are your
PRs at shorter distances ? About 1:30-2:00 slower than 5k race pace is a
good pace for long runs. At this time of year, you should be closer to 2:00
over 5k pace, as you get closer to the race, consider going towards the fast
end of that range.

Quoted message said:

I do a sports drink every
15 minutes, but it's not enough later on. Will add jels, but I want to
get started on the right foot.

I'm sceptical about your diagnosis. Nothing you've posted indicates that
your slowing down has anything to do with caloric intake. Most marathoners
can get through their long runs just fine without taking in much food
when they're in shape.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord said:

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Quoted message said:

I am training for my first marathon and have been experimenting with
my pre-race & pre-training meal. I've not been consuming enough
calories and I've found I am running out of gas at the 18 to 20 mile
mark

This is usually a combination of limited training/mileage, and at this time
of year, summer heat. How much mileage are you running, and how long have
you been training like this for ? If you are doing less than 50 miles per
week, then that long run is about 50% or more of what you're capable of
doing in a week, so it will be very tiring.

Quoted message said:

. I weigh 145, and am running at 7:45.

This doesn't tell us anything, unless we know how fast you are. What are your
PRs at shorter distances ? About 1:30-2:00 slower than 5k race pace is a
good pace for long runs. At this time of year, you should be closer to 2:00
over 5k pace, as you get closer to the race, consider going towards the fast
end of that range.

Quoted message said:

I do a sports drink every
15 minutes, but it's not enough later on. Will add jels, but I want to
get started on the right foot.

I'm sceptical about your diagnosis. Nothing you've posted indicates that
your slowing down has anything to do with caloric intake. Most marathoners
can get through their long runs just fine without taking in much food
when they're in shape.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

The Elf is like 350lbs, ignore him.

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I am training for my first marathon and have been experimenting with
my pre-race & pre-training meal. I've not been consuming enough
calories and I've found I am running out of gas at the 18 to 20 mile
mark.

As a TBR says below, you're probably going just a bit too fast. Back off by
15-20 secs/mile and you'll be fine. When I was just starting out and low
2:50's I used to run my 20's at about 8:00/mile -- over a minute/mile slower
than my marathon pace.

The long run shouldn't be your hardest run of the week. Run your medium and
short distance days faster, and your longest day a bit slower. Go too hard
on the long day and it sets you back in your training -- you might need most
of the week to recover. I had to relearn this lesson recently. I'd been
pushing the pace on my long runs; when I backed off a couple of notches and
focused on other runs for strength and speed, my performance got a good
boost.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 145, and am running at 7:45. I do a sports drink every
15 minutes, but it's not enough later on. Will add jels, but I want to
get started on the right foot.

It's *really* important to know how much fluid you need under various
conditions, especially on long races like the marathon and beyond. Next
time, weigh yourself before starting out, keep track of what you drink, and
weigh yourself (dry clothes or in the buff) afterward. Each pound you lose
represents 16oz of water you should have consumed. Being a couple of lbs
light at the end isn't a problem, but beyond that you pay a heat regulation
and performance penalty.

Also, on long runs and marathons, I recommend supplimenting salt -- look up
Succeed brand salt caps -- one per hour will do you for a marathon and keep
everything working smoothly. Sloshy and queasy stomach during marathons
will keep you from wanting to drink, and you'll get way behind on hydration,
a vicious cycle. Salt prevents that (you sweat out about 1/2 tsp of salt
with every lb of sweat).

Re water, I'm 148 and when running hard, typically need 30+ oz/hour on a
mild 70F day, and upwards of 60oz/hour when it's 90F+. Find out what you
need under various conditions, and learn to drink at that rate throughout
the run. For instance on my last long run, I had 1/3 of a 24oz bottle every
15 minutes.

Get a bottle belt and strongly consider carrying a 24oz bottle in your race.
You can quickly refill the bottle every 2-3 aid stations, and drink on the
run. You'll be way ahead of the competition in the hydration dept, and this
pays big dividends.

Re food, just have 200-300 calories 2-3 hours before your run, and
experiment with a gel every hour or so, in addition to sports drink (I like
Accelerade). This way you'll be getting 200-300 calories/hour, which is
about the most people can handle without slowing down.

I find that I don't need gels until I've been out there for about 3 hours (I
run more ultras than marathons these days).

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have a liquid pre-race breakfast they could share?

It's calories before race time that matters. Every thing you eat becomes
liquid by the time it hits your stomach anyway. One tried and true rule of
thumb is 100 calories for each hour prior to competition, e.g., 300 calories
3 hours before racetime. Experiment, everyone's a bit different. I eat
the same breakfast before my long runs that I'll eat before a race -- avoid
surprises.

-- Dan

D Stumpus said:

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I am training for my first marathon and have been experimenting with
my pre-race & pre-training meal. I've not been consuming enough
calories and I've found I am running out of gas at the 18 to 20 mile
mark.

As a TBR says below, you're probably going just a bit too fast. Back off by
15-20 secs/mile and you'll be fine. When I was just starting out and low
2:50's I used to run my 20's at about 8:00/mile -- over a minute/mile slower
than my marathon pace.

The long run shouldn't be your hardest run of the week. Run your medium and
short distance days faster, and your longest day a bit slower. Go too hard
on the long day and it sets you back in your training -- you might need most
of the week to recover. I had to relearn this lesson recently. I'd been
pushing the pace on my long runs; when I backed off a couple of notches and
focused on other runs for strength and speed, my performance got a good
boost.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 145, and am running at 7:45. I do a sports drink every
15 minutes, but it's not enough later on. Will add jels, but I want to
get started on the right foot.

It's *really* important to know how much fluid you need under various
conditions, especially on long races like the marathon and beyond. Next
time, weigh yourself before starting out, keep track of what you drink, and
weigh yourself (dry clothes or in the buff) afterward. Each pound you lose
represents 16oz of water you should have consumed. Being a couple of lbs
light at the end isn't a problem, but beyond that you pay a heat regulation
and performance penalty.

Also, on long runs and marathons, I recommend supplimenting salt -- look up
Succeed brand salt caps -- one per hour will do you for a marathon and keep
everything working smoothly. Sloshy and queasy stomach during marathons
will keep you from wanting to drink, and you'll get way behind on hydration,
a vicious cycle. Salt prevents that (you sweat out about 1/2 tsp of salt
with every lb of sweat).

Re water, I'm 148 and when running hard, typically need 30+ oz/hour on a
mild 70F day, and upwards of 60oz/hour when it's 90F+. Find out what you
need under various conditions, and learn to drink at that rate throughout
the run. For instance on my last long run, I had 1/3 of a 24oz bottle every
15 minutes.

Get a bottle belt and strongly consider carrying a 24oz bottle in your race.
You can quickly refill the bottle every 2-3 aid stations, and drink on the
run. You'll be way ahead of the competition in the hydration dept, and this
pays big dividends.

Re food, just have 200-300 calories 2-3 hours before your run, and
experiment with a gel every hour or so, in addition to sports drink (I like
Accelerade). This way you'll be getting 200-300 calories/hour, which is
about the most people can handle without slowing down.

I find that I don't need gels until I've been out there for about 3 hours (I
run more ultras than marathons these days).

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have a liquid pre-race breakfast they could share?

It's calories before race time that matters. Every thing you eat becomes
liquid by the time it hits your stomach anyway. One tried and true rule of
thumb is 100 calories for each hour prior to competition, e.g., 300 calories
3 hours before racetime. Experiment, everyone's a bit different. I eat
the same breakfast before my long runs that I'll eat before a race -- avoid
surprises.

-- Dan

Thanks Dan, I appreciate your input. I do have a lot to learn in this
regard. I'm still working on the hydration and nutrition aspect as
well as the running.

I've been tending to run all of my runs at about the same pace. My
last 20 was at 8:08 pace while my 7's and 8's are at about 7:45 pace.
Although the 20 day was much hotter and more hills. If my race pace
goal is 7:45, what would you suggest my 20 pace be at? Likewise my
shorter runs. I've been doing about 35 to 45 a week, depending on
which long run I have scheduled.

Thanks again,
Ken

<Ken Hardy> wrote

Quoted message said:

Thanks Dan, I appreciate your input. I do have a lot to learn in this
regard. I'm still working on the hydration and nutrition aspect as
well as the running.

Quoted message said:

I've been tending to run all of my runs at about the same pace. My
last 20 was at 8:08 pace while my 7's and 8's are at about 7:45 pace.

You may be faster than you think. Generally speaking, if you've got, say 50
ish miles/week (a good minimum goal for a marathon imo), one can run about a
minute or even more per mile faster than your average training pace. You
may be in better shape than you think.

My first two races were marathons, and I trained 48mpw at 8:00-8:15/mile.
Like you, my long runs were also about 8:00/mile. I did a 3:06 on that
training on a hot 80+F day. Probably could have flirted with 3:00 in cool
weather.

Have you pencilled in or run some 5k or 10k races as part of your build up?
Run one or two untapered, deduct 3% (the penalty for not resting up), and
look up that time in some race prediction charts (such as Gardiner/Purdy).
That will give you a good estimate of a goal to shoot for.

Quoted message said:

Although the 20 day was much hotter and more hills. If my race pace
goal is 7:45, what would you suggest my 20 pace be at?

That 8:08 is a very strong long run. The long run is normally (by
experienced marathoners) run at over a minute over race pace. When my pace
was a shade under 6:00/mile, I used to run them between 7:00 and 8:00,
depending on who I was running with. The rub is finding out your
approximate marathon pace, especially when you're inexperienced. This is
why shorter races (no more than 10k) are a great indicator of where your
training is at. They also get you into shape in a hurry.

Quoted message said:

Likewise my shorter runs. I've been doing about 35 to 45 a week, depending
on
which long run I have scheduled.

As a general principle, one or two of your shorter runs (surrounded by easy
days) should be a few notches faster than your cruise pace. And your easy
days should be slower than cruise pace. The long run would be at cruise
pace or a notch below. This is obviously a change from what you've been
doing, but it pays dividends on race day.

In this scheme, based on what you're told me, you'd have one or two shorter
runs at about 7:00-7:15/mile, surrounded by 8:30-9:00/mile recovery days,
and your long run would be 8:30-ish and shouldn't be a major stress -- you
should feel strong at the end. This is where you experiment with
hydration/salt/nutrition. And your faster days should be "fun fast", not a
dreaded chore.

Training is obviously important, but execution can be just as important in
marathons: correct pacing, proper hydration & salt, and a few calories here
and there enable you to get the most out of your training.

-- Dan

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

I am training for my first marathon and have been experimenting with
my pre-race & pre-training meal. I've not been consuming enough
calories and I've found I am running out of gas at the 18 to 20 mile
mark. I weigh 145, and am running at 7:45. I do a sports drink every
15 minutes, but it's not enough later on. Will add jels, but I want to
get started on the right foot.

Does anyone have a liquid pre-race breakfast they could share?

Ken

Just do like me, and pee into your mouth. It rehydrates you exactly in
proportion to your moisture loss, and with practice you can run and
pee in your mouth while you run.
--
_________________
Alric Knebel

http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com

D Stumpus said:

<Ken Hardy> wrote

Quoted message said:

Thanks Dan, I appreciate your input. I do have a lot to learn in this
regard. I'm still working on the hydration and nutrition aspect as
well as the running.

Quoted message said:

I've been tending to run all of my runs at about the same pace. My
last 20 was at 8:08 pace while my 7's and 8's are at about 7:45 pace.

You may be faster than you think. Generally speaking, if you've got, say 50
ish miles/week (a good minimum goal for a marathon imo), one can run about a
minute or even more per mile faster than your average training pace. You
may be in better shape than you think.

My first two races were marathons, and I trained 48mpw at 8:00-8:15/mile.
Like you, my long runs were also about 8:00/mile. I did a 3:06 on that
training on a hot 80+F day. Probably could have flirted with 3:00 in cool
weather.

Have you pencilled in or run some 5k or 10k races as part of your build up?
Run one or two untapered, deduct 3% (the penalty for not resting up), and
look up that time in some race prediction charts (such as Gardiner/Purdy).
That will give you a good estimate of a goal to shoot for.

Quoted message said:

Although the 20 day was much hotter and more hills. If my race pace
goal is 7:45, what would you suggest my 20 pace be at?

That 8:08 is a very strong long run. The long run is normally (by
experienced marathoners) run at over a minute over race pace. When my pace
was a shade under 6:00/mile, I used to run them between 7:00 and 8:00,
depending on who I was running with. The rub is finding out your
approximate marathon pace, especially when you're inexperienced. This is
why shorter races (no more than 10k) are a great indicator of where your
training is at. They also get you into shape in a hurry.

Quoted message said:

Likewise my shorter runs. I've been doing about 35 to 45 a week, depending
on
which long run I have scheduled.

As a general principle, one or two of your shorter runs (surrounded by easy
days) should be a few notches faster than your cruise pace. And your easy
days should be slower than cruise pace. The long run would be at cruise
pace or a notch below. This is obviously a change from what you've been
doing, but it pays dividends on race day.

In this scheme, based on what you're told me, you'd have one or two shorter
runs at about 7:00-7:15/mile, surrounded by 8:30-9:00/mile recovery days,
and your long run would be 8:30-ish and shouldn't be a major stress -- you
should feel strong at the end. This is where you experiment with
hydration/salt/nutrition. And your faster days should be "fun fast", not a
dreaded chore.

Training is obviously important, but execution can be just as important in
marathons: correct pacing, proper hydration & salt, and a few calories here
and there enable you to get the most out of your training.

-- Dan

Hey Dan,
In a way, I'm doing some of what you're suggesting. I run 4 days a
week, one long 16-20, one easy 7-8, one fast 6-7, one easy 5-6. My
long runs, I try to run half easy and half at marathon pace. My easy
is about 8:20 mpm and my pace I'd like in the race is about 7:45. My
local 20 has lots of hills and my first marathon I picked a flat
course; it's the Wine Glass Marathon in upstate NY; on 9/30. I'm
hoping for a cool autumn day. If so, I might be able to go lower.

I'm in week 9 of my 16 week prep.

I just turned 50, so I'm trying to keep my HR in the high 150's, low
160's. I wear a forerunner 305 to track this.

If I can get the hydration and calorie thing worked out, I think I can
optimize for success.

I haven't run any shorter races in a while, but I did a 10 mile race
last year at 7:16 mpm.

Is there a web site or book you would suggest to help with this kind
of stuff?

Ken

Ken Hardy said:

On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 22:54:13 -0700, "D Stumpus"
In a way, I'm doing some of what you're suggesting. I run 4 days a
week, one long 16-20, one easy 7-8, one fast 6-7, one easy 5-6. My
long runs, I try to run half easy and half at marathon pace. My easy
is about 8:20 mpm and my pace I'd like in the race is about 7:45. My
local 20 has lots of hills and my first marathon I picked a flat
course; it's the Wine Glass Marathon in upstate NY; on 9/30. I'm
hoping for a cool autumn day. If so, I might be able to go lower.

I'd recommend getting in a shorter race a few weeks out, so you have some
idea what shape you're in. 7:45 is doable, but you'll need to be quite a
bit faster than 7:16 for 10 miles to do that.

You're doing great to keep your body weight that low at your age.

Quoted message said:

I'm in week 9 of my 16 week prep.

I just turned 50, so I'm trying to keep my HR in the high 150's, low
160's. I wear a forerunner 305 to track this.

This seems kind of high -- you're doing all of your training runs too fast
to be easy, but too slow to be effective as speed work.

Would recommend slowing down everything (except the long run -- the current
mix of easy and MP is a good one) to about 8:20, but then doing a 5k-5mile
weekly tempo run at about 7:00-7:15 (10 mile pace is a good rule of thumb for
tempo work, hopefully you've gotten faster so you can go a bit under 7:16.

Quoted message said:

I haven't run any shorter races in a while, but I did a 10 mile race
last year at 7:16 mpm.

Is there a web site or book you would suggest to help with this kind
of stuff?

Competitive runners handbook, Bob Glover
Daniels Running formula, Jack Daniels
the website letsrun.com

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Quoted message said:

Ken Hardy said:

I picked a flat course; it's the Wine Glass Marathon
in upstate NY; on 9/30.

Good luck, Ken. That's one of a couple upstate NY marathons which
sound appealing to me - but not this year, as I got started too late
to be in any kind of shape by then (hence Philly in mid-Nov instead).

Donovan said:

I'd recommend getting in a shorter race a few weeks out, so you have some
idea what shape you're in. 7:45 is doable, but you'll need to be quite a
bit faster than 7:16 for 10 miles to do that.

Based on what?

I'm neither disputing that, nor asserting that anyone's one-size-fits-
all race equivalence calculator really does even begin to approach
fitting all. But McMillan's says a 3:23 marathon (7:45 pace) ==
1:12:29 10M (7:15 pace), just for one point of reference.

Then all else being equal I guess we gotta penalize Ken for both
"first marathon" (Ken, very few run a near-perfect first 42k; we all
have learning curves, some of us [cough cough... I've run some
stinkers and made some colossal blunders] more than others) and also
for "limited training volume".

OTOH those sound like some strong long runs, hitting of walls aside;
and I gotta think if a 25 year old and a 50 year old run the same 10M
time, the older guy has a better shot as the distance increases. All
else being equal.

Quoted message said:

Would recommend slowing down everything (except the long run -- the current
mix of easy and MP is a good one) to about 8:20, but then doing a 5k-5mile
weekly tempo run at about 7:00-7:15 (10 mile pace is a good rule of thumb for
tempo work, hopefully you've gotten faster so you can go a bit under 7:16.

Of course there's multiple schools of cat-skinning.

I found surprising improvement last fall from a steady diet of pretty
moderate sounding workouts: 40-70 minutes of marathon pace, and ~6
miles of long (1-3 mile) intervals between marathon and half-marathon
pace. Along with higher mileage and doubles.

Of course there's always so many pesky variables confounding a clean,
confident, precise interpretation of an individual's results. But it
seems to me that I, as a runner approaching 40, benefited more from
these longer slower "tempo" type runs than from the oft-prescribed mix
of "20 minutes @ hour race pace" tempos and plenty of 3-5k race pace
intervals. That stuff never seemed to deliver the full allotment of
goods, for me.

And if it was more about the mileage than the workouts, I'd say the
relatively milder workouts were part of what allowed me to run the
mileage without falling apart.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there a web site or book you would suggest to help with
this kind of stuff?

Competitive runners handbook, Bob Glover
Daniels Running formula, Jack Daniels
the website letsrun.com

Ken, I'd second Donovan's recs. Especially forums, with their two-way
discussion. Both here and at letsrun you'll find runners with a
variety of goals and experiences and ages, including some who
intersect pretty well with your own.

With the Daniels book I strongly feel that most runners overemphasize
his various tables and charts and neatly laid out training programs at
the expense of his text, which is IMO considerably more valuable. For
instance, at least in the first edition, he says:

-- snip --
Once they have reached a reasonable level of fitness, however, many
older runners want to test themselves in a race of some kind. This
often leads to wanting to run faster, and it is at this time that the
idea of quality workouts starts to become a reality. I still think
some repetition training can be beneficial, but I have found that
there is more enjoyment (and still desirable results) from a program
that minimizes intervals and repetitions and focuses more on threshold
training as the main quality emphasis.
-- snip --

I guess I initially read that to say "most of you older guys don't
really care to put in the effort to run the hard workouts in my
training plans" and naturally enough thought "screw you, Dr. Daniels,
I'll run your 10k training program and show you!" And found that
after improving in the early parts of the schedule (mostly doing what
he calls "repetition" training = very fast, short intervals with very
long, full recoveries) I stagnated the rest of the way - a bunch of
hard intervals and fast tempos did little to nothing for my race
times. (And this was consistent, in retrospect, with my other
experiences in years past.)

Though I'll say this: they probably made the marathon pace and
slightly faster stuff from the Hansons plan (whose workouts and long
run philosophy I adapted) seem easier. And after improving
considerably from that fall training I look back and appreciate
Daniels's point in the quote above.

Oh, here's the Hansons plan, if only as another data point to help
illustrate the range of approaches runners successfully employ.

http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/print.asp?id=4447

Charlie Pendejo said:

Based on what?

Based on the fact that not many first time marathoners run within 30 seconds a
mile over their 10 mile PR (or half marathon PR for that matter). That is an
exceptional performance, not an average performance. More realistic is about
a minute per mile difference.

Calculators work fine if you hold your pace as well as Tergat. Most people have
similar profiles to elite runners across about 5k-half marathon, much beyond
that and the fact that the average runner is not very well prepared for this
distance catches up with them, and they fall behind the elite curve.

I agree that the falloff in distance is slower for older runners though.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Donovan said:

Based on the fact that not many first time marathoners run within 30 seconds a
mile over their 10 mile PR (or half marathon PR for that matter). That is an
exceptional performance, not an average performance. More realistic is about
a minute per mile difference.

Fair enough. My first marathon was more like 2'/mi slower than my
half marathon pace, but then again we all pretty much know that on
this group only anders rivals me for marathon ineptitude and
misfortune.

Quoted message said:

Calculators work fine if you hold your pace as well as Tergat.

Or even Ryan Hall, who managed a 20"/mi differential in his debut
marathon vs. his half marathon. (Man oh Mahon, those Team Running USA
guys sure seem to have a clue or two.)

Quoted message said:

I agree that the falloff in distance is slower for older runners though.

I assume if you've got some older guys of comparable 10k speed in your
club, you surely smoke 'em in the mile right?

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

Based on the fact that not many first time marathoners run within 30 seconds a
mile over their 10 mile PR (or half marathon PR for that matter). That is an
exceptional performance, not an average performance. More realistic is about
a minute per mile difference.

Fair enough. My first marathon was more like 2'/mi slower than my
half marathon pace, but then again we all pretty much know that on
this group only anders rivals me for marathon ineptitude and
misfortune.

Quoted message said:

Calculators work fine if you hold your pace as well as Tergat.

Or even Ryan Hall, who managed a 20"/mi differential in his debut
marathon vs. his half marathon. (Man oh Mahon, those Team Running USA
guys sure seem to have a clue or two.)

Quoted message said:

I agree that the falloff in distance is slower for older runners though.

I assume if you've got some older guys of comparable 10k speed in your
club, you surely smoke 'em in the mile right?

Most of the old guys I know of who race the mile (and are anywhere near my
pace) are die-hard milers, so they are surprisingly fast compared to their
5k pace.

However, I do notice a couple of things -- one is that even the "younger older
guys" (e.g. about your age) are at a big disadvantage on shorter interval
workouts, whereas they will hold their own on a tempo run. Also, we sometimes
get kids in our training group who are solid in distance, but ridiculously fast
in the mile or 800m.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

<Ken Hardy> wrote

Ken, you've got some other perspectives below, but thought I'd throw a few
thoughts around anyway...

Quoted message said:

In a way, I'm doing some of what you're suggesting. I run 4 days a
week, one long 16-20, one easy 7-8, one fast 6-7, one easy 5-6. My
long runs, I try to run half easy and half at marathon pace. My easy
is about 8:20 mpm and my pace I'd like in the race is about 7:45. My
local 20 has lots of hills and my first marathon I picked a flat
course; it's the Wine Glass Marathon in upstate NY; on 9/30. I'm
hoping for a cool autumn day. If so, I might be able to go lower.

Sounds good. How fast is your fast 6-7 miler? (My guess would be 7:00 or
so)

The main thing I'd suggest is to get your average mileage 6-2 weeks out to
close to 50. If you take this bit of advice, just back off a bit in the
speed as you bump up, and in 2 weeks or so, you'll most likely be running at
the same pace at your higher mileage.

Quoted message said:

I'm in week 9 of my 16 week prep.

I assume you're using a canned program of some sort?

Quoted message said:

I just turned 50, so I'm trying to keep my HR in the high 150's, low
160's. I wear a forerunner 305 to track this.

As Donovan says, that seems high (but some folks have speedier hearts -- I
have a friend who is 57 and gets his above 200 on hard workouts). I'm 55,
and a strong training run for me is 150 HR average in the low 7's/mile on
the flat. (my max is about 180). On easy days, it ranges from 125-135. I
think you probably have way above average talent, based on your easy pace of
8:20 at age 50 (assuming that's run at ~75% of your max HR).

Quoted message said:

If I can get the hydration and calorie thing worked out, I think I can
optimize for success.

You'll be so far ahead of even many experienced marathoners...experience
doesn't always translate to wisdom ;-) Just remember that too many calories
will bog you down during a race...200/hour (including sports drink) may be
optimal. Consider the bottle belt, despite that you'll look like a total
nerd with one in a marathon...

Quoted message said:

I haven't run any shorter races in a while, but I did a 10 mile race
last year at 7:16 mpm.

I bet you're in better shape now...

Quoted message said:

Is there a web site or book you would suggest to help with this kind
of stuff?

CP and Donovan piped up with some stuff, but you've got the idea. The trick
is to find the balance between stressor runs and recovery runs and days off,
so that you improve over time. That's about it (except for a million
possible options ;-) Get too macho, and you get injured or sick or stale.
Go too easy, and you don't improve (especially if you've been conditioned
for years).

Good Luck.

Quoted message said:

I find that I don't need gels until I've been out there for about 3 hours (I
run more ultras than marathons these days).

Noakes says you've been running for 40 minutes 100% depleted of Liver
Glycogen. You would perform better if this were not the case.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have a liquid pre-race breakfast they could share?

I drink CarboForce to top out glycogen stores

Quoted message said:

It's calories before race time that matters. Every thing you eat becomes
liquid by the time it hits your stomach anyway.

not quite right. different food groups use different enzymes to digest
that particular group. mix the wrong combination of food groups
together & enzymes required to digest each type of food cancel each
other out to a degree or fully - these foods end up laying in your
stomach for longer periods of time, digestion is protracted and can
result in indigestion. Example, you're not supposed to eat Fruit with
anything other than Fruit (and not to mix up sweet and sour fruits).

It's the calories, the carbs, & the food groups.

lance said:

Example, you're not supposed to eat Fruit with
anything other than Fruit

Says who?

Are you, and they, telling us the Thai classic of sticky rice & mango
& cream is anything short of one of the world's perfect foods?

"Charlie" wrote :
| > Example, you're not supposed to eat Fruit with
| > anything other than Fruit
|
| Says who?
|
| Are you, and they, telling us the Thai classic of sticky rice & mango
| & cream is anything short of one of the world's perfect foods?

Don't forget the coconut and tons of sugar in it. Yum!

Too much fruit before or during the run has the same effect as high
fructose drinks, upsets some stomachs.

"LSmith" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find that I don't need gels until I've been out there for about 3 hours
(I
run more ultras than marathons these days).

Noakes says you've been running for 40 minutes 100% depleted of Liver
Glycogen. You would perform better if this were not the case.

Dunno about that -- if youre liver is out of glycogen, you get gypoglycemic
(low blood sugar) in a hurry, lightheaded, etc. That's happened to me on
long runs (4+ hours) when I haven't had more than my sports drink. Instant
cure: a gel or small carb snack.

However, I ran my best race in years at Bulldog 50k, and discovered that the
sports drink they served was calorie-free. I got ravenous after 3.5
hours, (a sign of low blood sugar), than had gels for the remainder of the
race. I ran strong throughout. That's 20+ miles and 4500' of climbing
without any calories at all.

Anyway, normally I drink at least 24 oz/hour of sports drink which has close
to 200 calories, so I'm not avoiding calories. Snacks are in addition to
this.

Also, if that's true how could I have run 1:15:00 in the half and 2:37 in
the full (back in the 80's) without a single calorie consumed? (I used to
drink only water). You'd think that my marathon performance woulda fallen
off the cliff if I'd run out of blood sugar (liver provides blood sugar
normally).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's calories before race time that matters. Every thing you eat
becomes
liquid by the time it hits your stomach anyway.

Quoted message said:

not quite right. different food groups use different enzymes to digest
that particular group. mix the wrong combination of food groups
together & enzymes required to digest each type of food cancel each
other out to a degree or fully - these foods end up laying in your
stomach for longer periods of time, digestion is protracted and can
result in indigestion. Example, you're not supposed to eat Fruit with
anything other than Fruit (and not to mix up sweet and sour fruits).

I avoid fruit, maybe having discovered the above -- pre-race I normally have
cereal with sugar. I also avoid more than a touch of fat.

On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:49:23 +0000 (UTC), Elflord <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Hi Elflord,

Quoted message said:

I'd recommend getting in a shorter race a few weeks out, so you have some
idea what shape you're in. 7:45 is doable, but you'll need to be quite a
bit faster than 7:16 for 10 miles to do that.

Why is that? My assumption is there would be some fall off, but that
seems like a lot. Is there that high of a correlation between a faster
lower mileage run. For instance, if I can run 7:45 for 20, how much
fall off would you expect over the last 6?

Quoted message said:

You're doing great to keep your body weight that low at your age.

Thanks. Mostly genetics. I was 20 lbs heavier 4 years ago, but have
been running to stay fit. I was given the slight frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm in week 9 of my 16 week prep.

I just turned 50, so I'm trying to keep my HR in the high 150's, low
160's. I wear a forerunner 305 to track this.

This seems kind of high -- you're doing all of your training runs too fast
to be easy, but too slow to be effective as speed work.

I know. I need some more focused training.

Quoted message said:

Would recommend slowing down everything (except the long run -- the current
mix of easy and MP is a good one) to about 8:20, but then doing a 5k-5mile
weekly tempo run at about 7:00-7:15 (10 mile pace is a good rule of thumb for
tempo work, hopefully you've gotten faster so you can go a bit under 7:16.

I ran 16 yesterday. I averaged 7:59 for the total, but the last 6, I
ran at about 7:05 or so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I haven't run any shorter races in a while, but I did a 10 mile race
last year at 7:16 mpm.

Is there a web site or book you would suggest to help with this kind
of stuff?

Competitive runners handbook, Bob Glover
Daniels Running formula, Jack Daniels
the website letsrun.com

Cheers,

I ordered these 2 books from half.com. I should have them this week.

Thanks for all of the great advice!
Ken