Prescription for Murder?

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
: Here are some of the better-known cases:

What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
(cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

-----
Richard Schultz [email hidden]
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"There are no fools as tiresome as those who have some wit." -- La Rochefoucald

(Richard Schultz) said:

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
: Here are some of the better-known cases:

What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
influence of SSRIs.

Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

Tunderbar said:

(Richard Schultz) said:

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
: Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
influence of SSRIs.

Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
"There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
Vince

bigvince said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
: Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Quoted message said:

Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
influence of SSRIs.

Quoted message said:

Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Quoted message said:

Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
"There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
Vince- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Tunderbar said:

bigvince said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

Quoted message said:

>In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>: Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

>What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Quoted message said:

Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
influence of SSRIs.

Quoted message said:

Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Quoted message said:

Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
"There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
Vince- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder. I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing. Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially. Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use.

Maxwell said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 12:35 pm, bigvince <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 19, 11:59 am, Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>>: Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>>(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
>overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
>violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
>influence of SSRIs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
"There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
Vince- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder. I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing. Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially. Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use

Actually, school shootings were thoroughly studied after Columbine at
the request of Pres. Clinton. He asked the The National Threat
Assesment Center of the United States Secret Service to look into
school shootings. Their report had been available for a few years on
line. I do not know if it is still available.

The found that there was two broad classes of shootings. However, the
single most common fact amongst those who engage in the two types of
shootings was the fact that the shooter had been the target of
bullying, tormenting, etc.

The two types of shooting are where there is the killing of others and
where the student showed up in school and killed themselves, usually
in the face of who they perceived tobe their tormentors.

The NTAC study found little evidence of a connection to medication
use. Even if they had, the fact is that the student was having a
problem which was perceived by others who had them treated.

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.

On Apr 20,

Quoted message said:

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Now I've seen people write about the fact that when mercury in vacines was increased and autism rates went up at the same time that those facts where not related seems there where other factors that had to be consider, Many studies have shown and increase in suicides and other hostile acts that occur when people take SSRIS. That the homicide ratr has declined at the same time is related more to changes in laws related to violent crimes; changes in security. The fact that schoolshootings ;once almost unheard of. Now occur much more offen despite the increased security. The fact that these drugs are so dangerous that the FDA require a black box warning be placed on them. The fact that they our often prescibed off label for conditions they were never proven to be safe and effective. Increases the risk of these drugs.

bigvince said:

On Apr 20,

Quoted message said:

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

>>> Now I've seen people write about the fact that when mercury in vacines was increased and autism rates went up at the same time that those facts where not related seems there where other factors that had to be consider, Many studies have shown and increase in suicides and other hostile acts that occur when people take SSRIS. That the homicide ratr has declined at the same time is related more to changes in laws related to violent crimes; changes in security. The fact that schoolshootings ;once almost unheard of. Now occur much more offen despite the increased security. The fact that these drugs are so dangerous that the FDA require a black box warning be placed on them. The fact that they our often prescibed off label for conditions they were never proven to be safe and effective. Increases the risk of these drugs.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

agreed

Maxwell said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 12:35 pm, bigvince <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Apr 19, 11:59 am, Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>>: Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>>(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
>overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
>violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
>influence of SSRIs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
"There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
Vince- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder.

The logical blunder is yours. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence.
Any real scientist will tell you that anecdotal data is the basis for
successful study: it so happens that these drugs have been do distort
the reality-perceptive capacities of patients.

Quoted message said:

I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing.

It doesn't require proof. You would have no proof of fatality in an
automobile with a broken seatbelt until after the event, would you?

Quoted message said:

Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

A study accounting for confounding factors in the mentally ill in
combination with a drug would be impossible, as you and your sponsors
are well aware. If you put a foreign chemical into the brain of a
sick individual, you are going to reap the death and demise of many
others, without curing anyone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially.

But not school homicides, which are way up. [ref.
http://www.ed.gov/PressReleases/10-1999/violence.html.] Note the
article was written *before* either Columbine or Virginia Tech.

Quoted message said:

Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use.

How hard do you want it? Guns are real, and kids on drugs are more
apt to pull the trigger.
http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/media/ssri/paxil/FDAHearing/FDAWarningforSSRIs.htm
http://www.ahrp.org/ahrpspeaks/SSRI091404.php
http://www.newstarget.com/021798.html

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
Here are some of the better-known cases:

18-year old Eric Harris. Killed 13 and wounded 22 people April 20,
1999 at Columbine High School in Littleton Colorado. Drug
implicated: Luvox.

15-year-old Kip Kinkel killed his parents and then went to school,
where he killed 2 more people with a firearm. Drug implicated:
Prozac.

12-year old Christopher Pittman, who murdered his grandparents in
Chester, SC. [ref. Also see article at:
http://kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_107103829.html.] Drug
implicated: Zoloft.

According to Keith Altman of Fibonacci Group, violent and suicidal
behavior linked to SSRIs is not confined to adolescents. A third of
all drug-related suicides after 1990 (for which data is available)
have been associated with the prescription drug Prozac. Just because
a drug is prescribed for depression doesn't mean it's harmless. These
are dangerous, mind-altering substances and a threat to society. Gun
laws will have no effect on those who devise a way to get a weapon to
act out their drug-induced rage.

The trouble with "associations" is that you don't know which is the
cart and which is the horse. I wouldn't be at all surprised if many
suicides were by people on antidepressants, because it's mostly people
who are depressed who kill themselves, now isn't it?

But you just hang in there, making your dark insinuations. No doubt
your paymasters expect this kind of thing.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"HPV shots don't cause promiscuity. Tequila shots do." -- Bill Maher

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tunderbar said:

(Richard Schultz) said:

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
: Here are some of the better-known cases:

What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
influence of SSRIs.

Proven, eh? Let's see the proof. I can't wait.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"HPV shots don't cause promiscuity. Tequila shots do." -- Bill Maher

"Mark Probert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maxwell said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 12:35 pm, bigvince <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>On Apr 19, 11:59 am, Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>>In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>: SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>>>: Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

>>>What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>>>(cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?

Quoted message said:

>>Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
>>overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
>>violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
>>influence of SSRIs.

Quoted message said:

>>Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?

Quoted message said:

>>Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?

Quoted message said:

> To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
>not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
>including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
>hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
>drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
>"There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
>in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
>Vince- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

>- Show quoted text -

Quoted message said:

I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder. I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing. Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially. Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use

Actually, school shootings were thoroughly studied after Columbine at
the request of Pres. Clinton. He asked the The National Threat
Assesment Center of the United States Secret Service to look into
school shootings. Their report had been available for a few years on
line. I do not know if it is still available.

The found that there was two broad classes of shootings. However, the
single most common fact amongst those who engage in the two types of
shootings was the fact that the shooter had been the target of
bullying, tormenting, etc.

The two types of shooting are where there is the killing of others and
where the student showed up in school and killed themselves, usually
in the face of who they perceived tobe their tormentors.

The NTAC study found little evidence of a connection to medication
use. Even if they had, the fact is that the student was having a
problem which was perceived by others who had them treated.

The NATC has no meducal training.

Quoted message said:

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.

Mark the drug pusher, cannot figure out that medication was involved in
every case of school
shootings?

In misc.health.alternative Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:

: I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
: responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
: murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
: who murdered while on SSRIs.

Since not all mass murders are committed by people who are on SSRIs, we
cannot automatically assume that if a mass murder *is* committed by someone
taking them, there is a causal relationship between his having taken the
drugs and his having committed the murders. You seem to want us to engage
in the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy.

-----
Richard Schultz [email hidden]
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:

: The logical blunder is yours. Anecdotal evidence is still evidence.

Then why do you reject it when it points to a conclusion other than the
one you want to reach?

: It doesn't require proof. You would have no proof of fatality in an
: automobile with a broken seatbelt until after the event, would you?

What exactly is that supposed to mean, if anything?

-----
Richard Schultz [email hidden]
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Gentlemen, Ciccolini here may look like an idiot, and talk like an idiot,
but don't let that fool you -- he really is an idiot."

In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Anecdotal evidence is still evidence.

What do you think of the anecdotal evidence given in
<http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-04/042007todd.html#i7>?

-----
Richard Schultz [email hidden]
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."

Mark Probert said:

Maxwell said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 12:35 pm, bigvince <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 11:59 am, Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>> In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> : SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>>> : Here are some of the better-known cases:
>>> What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>>> (cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?
>> Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
>> overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
>> violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
>> influence of SSRIs.
>> Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?
>> Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?
> To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
> not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
> including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
> hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
> drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
> "There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
> in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
> Vince- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder. I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing. Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially. Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use

Actually, school shootings were thoroughly studied after Columbine at
the request of Pres. Clinton. He asked the The National Threat
Assesment Center of the United States Secret Service to look into
school shootings. Their report had been available for a few years on
line. I do not know if it is still available.

The found that there was two broad classes of shootings. However, the
single most common fact amongst those who engage in the two types of
shootings was the fact that the shooter had been the target of
bullying, tormenting, etc.

The two types of shooting are where there is the killing of others and
where the student showed up in school and killed themselves, usually
in the face of who they perceived tobe their tormentors.

The NTAC study found little evidence of a connection to medication
use. Even if they had, the fact is that the student was having a
problem which was perceived by others who had them treated.

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.

60 Minutes addressed this study with two of the authors tonight. Note
the use of a psychologist as part of the study team. These are THE
experts on shootings.

http://www.kashrut.com/articles/soul_food/

The documents developed by the Safe Schools Initiative are available on
line.

"In 2000, (Dr.] Fein, Vossekuil and psychologist Marisa Reddy went back
to the prisons and mental hospitals, this time to interview kids who
attacked their schools. "

"And one theme they detected was bullying: two-thirds of the school
shooters were victims of bullies. "

Mark Probert said:

Maxwell said:

Tunderbar said:

On Apr 19, 12:35 pm, bigvince <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 11:59 am, Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>> In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> : SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>>> : Here are some of the better-known cases:
>>> What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>>> (cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?
>> Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
>> overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
>> violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under the
>> influence of SSRIs.
>> Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?
>> Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?
> To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
> not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
> including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
> hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
> drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
> "There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
> in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
> Vince- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
who murdered while on SSRIs.

The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder. I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing. Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

Quoted message said:

Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
shootings that are related to SSRI use?

Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially. Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use

Actually, school shootings were thoroughly studied after Columbine at
the request of Pres. Clinton. He asked the The National Threat
Assesment Center of the United States Secret Service to look into
school shootings. Their report had been available for a few years on
line. I do not know if it is still available.

The found that there was two broad classes of shootings. However, the
single most common fact amongst those who engage in the two types of
shootings was the fact that the shooter had been the target of
bullying, tormenting, etc.

The two types of shooting are where there is the killing of others and
where the student showed up in school and killed themselves, usually
in the face of who they perceived tobe their tormentors.

The NTAC study found little evidence of a connection to medication
use. Even if they had, the fact is that the student was having a
problem which was perceived by others who had them treated.

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.

OOPS..wrong URL...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/22/60minutes/main2714959.shtml

Mark Probert said:

Mark Probert said:

Maxwell said:

Tunderbar wrote:
> On Apr 19, 12:35 pm, bigvince <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 11:59 am, Tunderbar <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> On Apr 19, 10:24 am, [email hidden] (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>>>> In misc.health.alternative PeterB <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> : SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
>>>> : Here are some of the better-known cases:
>>>> What anti-depressants was Charles Whitman taking? Or Andrew Kehoe
>>>> (cf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster)?
>>> Now that is an exercise is fuzzy logic if I ever saw one. Ignore the
>>> overwheming evidence of literally dozens of proven SSRI-related
>>> violent murders because some mass murders were not committed under
>>> the
>>> influence of SSRIs.
>>> Negative instances are supposed to disprove the proven positives?
>>> Is that what they are teaching you nimrods in chemical school?
>> To claim that all mass murderers are commited by people on SSRIs is
>> not the proper premise. The literture shows that hostile acts
>> including suicide are increased by SSRIs . That means some % of
>> hostile acts attributed to people on SSRis are in fact caused by the
>> drug. That the professor sets up and Knocks down a staw man. well
>> "There are none so blind as those who will not see" Those interested
>> in the truth on these matters are advised to do your own research.
>> Vince- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> I never said that all mass murders are committed by people on SSRIs. I
> responded to the poster that suggested that because a couple of mass
> murderers were not on SSRIs then SSRIs could not be a factor in other
> who murdered while on SSRIs.
The original poster gave several cases of persons allegedly on SSRIs who
committed murders. That's a fallacy of using anecdotal evidence--a
rather elementary logical blunder. I suspect that the responding poster
just wanted to point out the obvious: One can find instances both
ways--It proves nothing. Obviously a rigorous study accounting for
confounding factors is needed. But the OP is not noted for his
scientific acumen.

> Has anyone noticed the increase in mass murders and multiple school
> shootings that are related to SSRI use?
Have you bothered to look up the statistics. The incidence of mass
murders has not increased. Over the past 15 years or so, the rate of
violence, including school violence, has declined substantially. Nor is
there any hard evidence linking violence to antidepressant use

Actually, school shootings were thoroughly studied after Columbine at
the request of Pres. Clinton. He asked the The National Threat
Assesment Center of the United States Secret Service to look into
school shootings. Their report had been available for a few years on
line. I do not know if it is still available.

The found that there was two broad classes of shootings. However, the
single most common fact amongst those who engage in the two types of
shootings was the fact that the shooter had been the target of
bullying, tormenting, etc.

The two types of shooting are where there is the killing of others and
where the student showed up in school and killed themselves, usually
in the face of who they perceived tobe their tormentors.

The NTAC study found little evidence of a connection to medication
use. Even if they had, the fact is that the student was having a
problem which was perceived by others who had them treated.

Another problem with linking the shootings to medication is that there
are hundreds of thousands of people taking these medications, with the
rate increasing (according to the anti-medication crowd) and the
homicide rate has gone down at the same time.

60 Minutes addressed this study with two of the authors tonight. Note
the use of a psychologist as part of the study team. These are THE
experts on shootings.

Corrected URL

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/22/60minutes/main2714959.shtml

Quoted message said:

The documents developed by the Safe Schools Initiative are available on
line.

"In 2000, (Dr.] Fein, Vossekuil and psychologist Marisa Reddy went back
to the prisons and mental hospitals, this time to interview kids who
attacked their schools. "

"And one theme they detected was bullying: two-thirds of the school
shooters were victims of bullies. "

(David Wright) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

PeterB said:

SSRI antidepressants have been linked to several school shootings.
Here are some of the better-known cases:

Quoted message said:

18-year old Eric Harris. Killed 13 and wounded 22 people April 20,
1999 at Columbine High School in Littleton Colorado. Drug
implicated: Luvox.

Quoted message said:

15-year-old Kip Kinkel killed his parents and then went to school,
where he killed 2 more people with a firearm. Drug implicated:
Prozac.

Quoted message said:

12-year old Christopher Pittman, who murdered his grandparents in
Chester, SC. [ref. Also see article at:
http://kutv.com/topstories/topstories_story_107103829.html.] Drug
implicated: Zoloft.

Quoted message said:

According to Keith Altman of Fibonacci Group, violent and suicidal
behavior linked to SSRIs is not confined to adolescents. A third of
all drug-related suicides after 1990 (for which data is available)
have been associated with the prescription drug Prozac. Just because
a drug is prescribed for depression doesn't mean it's harmless. These
are dangerous, mind-altering substances and a threat to society. Gun
laws will have no effect on those who devise a way to get a weapon to
act out their drug-induced rage.

The trouble with "associations" is that you don't know which is the
cart and which is the horse. I wouldn't be at all surprised if many
suicides were by people on antidepressants, because it's mostly people
who are depressed who kill themselves, now isn't it?

But you just hang in there, making your dark insinuations. No doubt
your paymasters expect this kind of thing.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"HPV shots don't cause promiscuity. Tequila shots do." -- Bill Maher- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Depression does not equate to suicidality. See, this is where you book-
smart pinheads go wrong. Those of us with firsthand experience with
depression and with people with depression know different.

Here is the main point. Many people suffer from anxiety and
depression. Few are suicidal or violent. Like I said, depression does
not equate to suicidalty and violence. Quite a large number of these
non-suicidal and non-violent people sufferring from anxiety and/or
depression have been placed on SSRIs and more than a few have become
suicidal and/or violent as a result of the SSRIs and only after
starting on the SSRIs.

And the problem is twofold. One, is that you book-smart pinheads try
to say that they were sick to begin with therefore it can't be the
medication that is designed to help them. IE. you say that the drug is
intended to be a positive therefore by definition it could not be a
negative. And two, you say that these people were mentally unstable to
begin with so it must be the mental condition that is to blame.

And that argument works, if you are presenting this argument to people
who know nothing about mental illness.

1) Depression does NOT EQUATE to suicidality and violence
2) The drugs that aresupposed to make things better (ie SSRIs in
particular) have been shown conclusively in studies and in murder
trials to have been part of the cause or the trigger to violent and
suicidal and psychotic behaviors.

And that is what makes this so insidious. The very drug that is
supposed to help, makes things much worse. Advanced degree pinheads
and pharma apologists read the rosy-red literature from pharma and mix
in their naive understanding of mental health and conclude that, on
paper, SSRIs could not possibly cause any problem.