Proper posturing

yes, a longer stem, commuters and non profesional bikes for example always have that silly fit with a ridiculously short stem (specially MTBs) where you look like being sitting on the bike, with your back almost straight, for longer rides your back needs to be almost or closer to horizontal to the ground prespective, that could be it.

And wider handlebars also, until the 80's handlebars were quite narrow, it is now a proven fact that a wider handlebar is much more comfortable and convenient,

50 miles is already some distance, so pain and numbness here and there is expected until you get use to that kind of riding,

What kind of bike do you have now, and how is the stem set up? This is important if you want some valuable feedback.
- what is your current stem length?
- how tall are you? Are your arms/legs long/short for your size?
- What size is your bike?
- is you stem currently horizontal or pointing up at around 45 degrees?
- What is you basic level of flexibility? (can you easily touch your toes)

for untrained riders a long pro looking stem can be the #1 cause of shoulder and lower back pain, next to one that is too low. I'm 5'8 with arms proportionately short to my torso, why should my stem be as long as Andy Schlecks?

There are two very simple measures that can be taken without a "pro-fit":

1. As far as stem LENGTH, a good rule of thumb, is to have the handlebars obscure the front hub while you hands are resting on the hoods. This is also a good rule for bike safety as it puts your center over the steering column. To close or far away and its hard to steer the bike properly whether comfy or not.

2. As far as stem HEIGHT, I have ridden and raced on and off for decades but returning after a long layoff had to spend last year adjusting to my position - one that is not even that aggressive to begin with. 2 years back I had to start with an 85mm stem flipped "upside down" with a few spacers on top of the headset. I started with 4.5 cm difference between the top of the seat and the top of the handlebars. After many long rides I would have a sore lower back, and occasionally threw my back out.

As a rider gets taller the distance would likely increase. Someone 6ft+ may have a difference closer to 7-9cm.

After two seasons of dedicated riding and regular stretching (20 mins everyday) I ride with 5.5cm height diff and a 90mm stem flipped to "horizontal" and can hammer in the drops for hours with no pain at all. I recently tried moving out to 100mm but it was to long. I also tried getting lower and decreasing stem height, but just a 2.5mm change had my hamstrings sore for a week. Needless to say I moved back and love my position. Very small changes (+/- 2-5mm) can have big effects on our comfort or discomfort. Make any changes incrementally (no more than 5mm at a time), and definitely not right before a big ride. 5.5mm's perfect for me, 6mm leaves me with a sore lower back and achy hamstrings. My point... 5mm can make a difference.

As a beginner 50 miles is a long ride and some soreness should be expected, but a bike that is setup properly should be able to be ridden for a few hours at least with little no discomfort, and should be able to spend at least 10-15 minutes in the drops comfortably before changing positions.

Do yourself a favor, visit a quality bike store that gives you a good vibe, take a leap of faith and liberate yourself of the $100-150 it will likely cost for a fitting. Feedback on this forum is sometimes good, but a bike fit is a dynamic experience that involves the person fitting you taking feedback as the fitting is happening. NEVER trust a fit if the guy doesn't ask at least once or twice, "how does that feel".

A teamate of mine recently got a "pro fitting". He looked great... long, low and mean. we did a baseline time trial (a very short 3.5 miles). He couldn't do more than 2 minutes in the drops. I asked him and he told me he's not in shape for that position yet.

Good luck!

Thanks for the input. Wow, everytime I read the responses that you guys give, I realize just how much I need to learn. Thanks for all of the helpful information. Here is some basic info on myself and bike.

My heighth- 5' 9.5"
Weight- 175 lbs
Arm length (I am guessing they are on the longer side)- 71" tip of middle finger to other tip
Flexibility- I can touch my toes easily
Bike- 2011 Specialized Tarmac comp 54 cm.
Stem- pointed slightly downwards

My salesman was a great guy and he seemed quite knowledgeable. The only thing that I questioned was that he was dead set on a 54 cm being the right bike for me without asking my height or measuring me. He simply said "you are about the same height as me". Which it seemed like I was a few inches taller myself. Anyway, I rode a 54 and a 56 and had a hard time developing a real definite opinion about one or the other. So I did end up going with a 54. After riding my first few weeks its like I had a feeling of wanting to stretch out more when riding. Does this have to do with the different sizes or more of a stem issue? Or do I even want to stretch out? I've read that you actually want to be somewhat hunched when riding. Now I'm really confusing myself!

I did wonder if I was possibly pushing myself to hard for a beginner. I started riding 20 miles for my first ride, and I ride this 2 to 3 times a week (only about a 1000 ft. elevation gain), along with a longer ride on the weekend. And I felt great doing this. I started with a 40 mile weekend ride about 3 weeks back, which was an amazing feeling. Then up to 50 miles 2 weeks ago, not so amazing the last 5 or 6 miles. And a 60 mile ride last weekend, which obviously had alot of shoulder and lower back pain. Am I pushing it way too hard?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by biker801 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Here is some basic info on myself and bike.

My heighth- 5' 9.5"
Weight- 175 lbs
Arm length (I am guessing they are on the longer side)- 71" tip of middle finger to other tip
Flexibility- I can touch my toes easily
Bike- 2011 Specialized Tarmac comp 54 cm.
Stem- pointed slightly downwards

My salesman was a great guy and he seemed quite knowledgeable. The only thing that I questioned was that he was dead set on a 54 cm being the right bike for me without asking my height or measuring me. He simply said "you are about the same height as me". Which it seemed like I was a few inches taller myself. Anyway, I rode a 54 and a 56 and had a hard time developing a real definite opinion about one or the other. So I did end up going with a 54. After riding my first few weeks its like I had a feeling of wanting to stretch out more when riding. Does this have to do with the different sizes or more of a stem issue? Or do I even want to stretch out? I've read that you actually want to be somewhat hunched when riding. Now I'm really confusing myself!

What is the frame's virtual top tube length?

How long is the stem?

Post a picture of how your bike is currently set up ...

What is the distance from the front-or-rear of the saddle to the back of the "horns" of the brake levers?

Are you changing hand positions when you ride?

FWIW. I'm 5'9" tall and I have have frames whose top tube lengths vary from 53cm to 57cm ... but, they are all adjust to be "the same" via the stem length of 66cm (+/-) where the slight variability in the "fit" from bike-to-bike is mostly due to the handlebar reach, drop, & width ... the frame with the shortest top has a 130mm stem, the frame with the longest has a 90mm stem.

Top tube= 53 cm
Stem= 10 cm
Back of saddle to the back of brake levers= 94 cm.

I do change hand positions quite a bit. And I rarely ride in the drops except for downhill. Which I am sure is not how I should be.

Here is the bike.[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

FWIW. Subjectively, if your frame's virtual top tube is only 53cm & the stem is only 100mm, even though the distance from the rear of the saddle (different saddles have different dimensions AND people seem to sit on them differently) to the rear of the hoods is within what I would consider to be an acceptable range for someone who is your height (and, I'm basing THAT on how my bikes are set up for me), you probably do want a longer stem ...

BUT, one thing you can do (and, this is more a matter of personal preference which may not work for you) , first, is to rotate the handlebars so that the last section is flatter (parallel to the ground) OR more ... without making any other changes, doing so will extend the distance to the hoods by what looks like about an inch.

For you reference, here is my frame which has a 53cm top tube + 130mm stem ...

[CENTER] [IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG][/CENTER]

My handlebars are oriented so the Drops are comfortable FOR ME (which may not be true for someone else) ...

With 175mm cranks, the distance between the center of the BB spindle & the top of the saddle is 28.25" as measured along the seat tube (those are actually longer cranks, so the saddle on this bike is slightly lower -- with shorter than 175mm cranks, my saddle woutd be slightly higher) ... the saddle height & position would be in the same position if the bike was set up with derailleurs (and, the same crankset) AND the saddle position is basically dependent on the crankarm length & where my cleats are mounted ...

My bikes are NOT set up using K.O.P.S ... if they were, I probably couldn't use the longer cranks without killing myself.

At first glance from yer stats the 54 seems like a good size and probably what I would have pushed on you based on your stats when I worked in a bike shop. At your size, a 56cm may have been good for someone who felt too low on the bars (the head tube is longer and puts the rider a little more upright, and combined with a shorter stem would have given the same reach).

It sounds like moving to a 110mm stem may help remedy. It also sounds like your body is just getting used to riding and all this will get better in short time. Try frequent shorter rides (20-25 miles) 3 or more times a week for awhile (preferably 4x), also after one of these "big" rides treat yourself and get a massage - Not even a full body massage, but just a 10 minute seated chair massage which many beauty salons do these days, or a significant other perhaps - you would be amazed at what 10 minutes of light trapezius and upper back kneeding will do, and it doesn't kneed (get it?) to be all the time, just the next month or two as your body adapts. Unfortunately just riding twice a week may not be enough to really break through the discomfort cycle.

Like alfeng mentioned tho, roating your bars a hair forward toward the ground will help stretch you out a bit, and it'll be way cheaper than a new stem. Just a little bit tho - a few degrees goes a long way. And, If you ever need to go lower it seems there's lots of spacers to remove. I also run my bars a bit more traditional (old school bars rotated a little more forward) which is probably the reason I'm running a 90mm stem - with a 'modern' setup I would probably need a 100mm stem. Also, because there are a number of spacers under your stem (looks like 3) AND your bars are rotated nicely up, you may just be a little too high on the bars, and not too compressed. This you will only truly know once you explore the options. Rotating the bars slighly forward will get you BOTH a little further forward and a little lower.

[IMG]cyclingforums.com500Open ↗[/IMG]

Being hunched is more a function of your physique. Look at Sean Kelly, he had one of the most compressed positions in the peleton of all time and had a bit of a hunch. Conversly many succesful cyclist have flatter backs - think Indurain. I could just see some new Cat3 Coach telling Kelly he needed to be stretched out more, one of the winningest cyclists of all time, lol! Think less how you look, more how you feel.

Btw Alfeng... that is one badass looking bike!

How can anyone tell that the bike is a good size for him just by looking at a picture of the bike without them sat on it?

I'd really like to know the science behind that because I reckon once I get that little gem down I could make a fortune doing bike fittings over the phone, the interweb and via regular postal mail. No pictures required. Just send me a link to the picture of your bike on the manufacturers website. Woohoo! $$$'s for me.

Thanks again for the info guys. I just got back from the shop and we did my free BG fit (2d) that came with my bike. The fitter actually did exactly what was suggested here and switched out the stem with 110 mm. And wow, the extra 10 mm made quite a difference in the feel. He also showed me a more relaxed position while riding. He seemed to think that I was a bit too rigid and my elbows needed more bend when riding. Especially when riding with my hands on the horns, as I tend to almost lock my elbows when riding up. Man I have alot to learn! But I will tell you, the thing that amazed me the most was the adjustment he did to my cleats. He had me spin for a while and just studied everything while doing so. He pointed out a problem that I had with my left leg not running straight. I had never visibly noticed this, but I did get some pain in this knee. I had just assumed the pain was from an injury I had in my early 20s. Anyway, he took my cleat off and slipped in a small shim to the front of my cleat and just like that, that leg was running straight. Absolutely amazing. And possibly no more pain in that knee (keeping my fingers crossed).

Anyway, thanks for all the input. It's always great to see people willing to help.........just to help. I will post again after my next ride to see how things change. That is if we can get this weather to clear here in Utah! Happy trails >>>

Swamp unfortunately there's no $$$ in it, so you may wanna keep the day job. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif[/IMG]

Now vspa's analysis of a longer stem fixing the OP's problem without the benefit of knowing anything (not even a pic of a riderless bike) was pure genius!

But I digress, you ask about bike fit on a forum and not the pro fitter who is currently fiddling with his protractor on your knee... and this is what you'll get... backseat bike fitting. [IMG]/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Biker, I'm glad it all worked out, that is one sweet ride (I was lucky enough to abuse an SL3 all last season).

When I started this post I was originally looking for more advice on my actual position on the bike. Maybe posturing was the wrong word. But I was wanting more opinion on how you guys generally ride. Arched back, flat back etc.............., but I conclude it's mostly what feels right to me. I am definitely not worried about "how I look", bet yet what will take me the distance. Anyway the conversation went more the bike " fit " direction , so I rode with it to see what other opinions were out there. I have no plans of making definite "fit" decisions from people many miles away. The 110 mm stem switch out was pure coincidental so I thought I would mention it. But thanks for info,.........and compliment! I'm really enjoying the ride and the sport much more than I thought. I think I see some sunshine out here....................

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970 [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

How can anyone tell that the bike is a good size for him just by looking at a picture of the bike without them sat on it?

I'd really like to know the science behind that because I reckon once I get that little gem down I could make a fortune doing bike fittings over the phone, the interweb and via regular postal mail. No pictures required. Just send me a link to the picture of your bike on the manufacturers website. Woohoo! $$$'s for me.

REALLY?!?

I know you know better ...

While it may be difficult to perform an ideal fitting because the rider's motion may not be apparent without watching him/her actually riding the bike, one can certainly gauge whether-or-not a frame size falls within a reasonable parameter for almost any given rider OTHERWISE the "sizing" charts would be meaningless ...

• Of course, there are SOME exceptions ...
  
• and, those sizing charts don't seem to take into account shoe size, crank size, flexibility, etc.
  

But, I would think that there must certainly be at least an allowable 3+ cm variance in the top tube & seat tube length from the ideal.

As I have said many times before, if one presumes a rider's proportions do not fall out of the norm and s/he isn't suffering from any obvious ailments, then a great deal of the frame size chosen for that rider can be based on a person's aesthetic sensibilities ...

AND, as I inferred, the OP will probably, eventually want a slightly longer stem than even the 110mm replacement stem which he is currently using unless he has a problem with his neck.

Interesting post with some good advice. Good to know. I haven't run into this problem, but I've also not clocked my distance. I'm thinking I've done around 30 miles a day. I could of done more when I use to travel from the other side of town but I didn't really care about distance. I don't think 50 miles would bother me. I think touring bikes are harder to get use to than mountain bikes because of the position.

My shoulders hurt whenever I demo road bikes. Usually, the handlebar is too high.

Most riders have a "power angle" for the back, which is usually somewhere from 40 to 50 degrees. Sit up higher than that when you're trying to go hard, and the back and the shoulders fight each other. That's my theory, anyway. My general fit rules are, with the hands covering the brake hoods, center of gravity should be over the pedals, torso should be supported by core muscles, not arms, most of the time, and the humerus (upper) arm should approximately form a 90 degree angle with the back. If this is too stretched, you have trouble controlling the bike, can't pull back on the bar for power, and can't get enough support from your arms when you need it. If this is too cramped, you tend to hump the back, leading to lower back and neck pain.

When it comes to posture I think a lot will depend on where and ho long your planning on cycling. While posture is important, I think it's also important not to overthink things to much.

Cycling also needs to be enjoyable and your not going to have fun if your constantly making sure your sat the right way or worrying about issues such as how much your arms are bending.