Prospective Engineer

"S. Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Indeed, here in Canada, there is a push to prevent people from using the term "engineer" in their
title unless they are, in fact,

licensed

Quoted message said:

engineers with the Association of Professional Engineers. And this isn't just asking nicely, it
would be a punishable offence.

Hey I thought once you got your "iron ring" you were automatically an engineer.

Well, they were specifically looking at MCSE's, Microsoft Certified System Engineers, who are not
really engineers at all in the view of the APEO. They have "asked" that people refrain from using
that terminology lest they be confused with the more conventional engineers. The only recognized
engineering fields in Ontario are civil, mech, elec, industrial and chemical, although there are a
few university programs that are eligible for APEO membership that do not belong to a specific
discipline, like the very rigourous Engineering Science degree from U of T, and possibly some of the
computer related programs at U of T and U of Waterloo.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"Ian S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"S. Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Hey I thought once you got your "iron ring" you were automatically an engineer.

"S. Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

the very rigourous Engineering Science degree from U of T,

I graduated from that program in 1973. It was tough. The attrition rate was horrendous. I don't know
what it's like now but 30 years ago, you got taught by big name professors not teaching assistents.
Definitely geared toward producing grad students. When I went to grad school in the U.S., I found
the graduate coursework quite easy by comparison. Ian Sorensen 7T3

S. Anderson wrote: <<snip>>

Quoted message said:

obtaining damages from the software producer. The liability burden pertaining to the accuracy of
the data is still the responsbility of the engineer stamping the drawing.

Given the combinatorial explosion in complexity in even a moderately sized computer program it is a
good deal more difficult if not impossible to provide any warranty that the program has no faults.

S. Anderson said:

Well, they were specifically looking at MCSE's, Microsoft Certified System Engineers, who are not
really engineers at all in the view of the APEO.

Well cripes!

The people I know who are MCSE Certified (Master Computer-games and Solitaire Experts) I wouldn't
trust to write a 'Hello World' program in BASIC. Especially when one considers it is not difficult
to obtain 'certification' to begin with. $800.00 (USD) and 1 weeks worth of time is all it takes in
M$ eyes. Those of us who take our careers seriously are of the opinion that this is simply a way for
billy-boy to continue to collect revenue.

Joe
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bicycles? check out the electric bicycle sites(and the morgue therein) or human powered vehicles.
been to the aerospace museum? check World Catalogue for books and read THE WAY THINGS WORK!! try the
"DIY" chain guard $2" here in tech last sorta invented by a nascar mechanic in l957-58.

It's not a case of "no faults". It's acceptance of responsbility, perhaps financial, that the
program will produce errors. Currently, there is absolutely no guarantee that software has to work,
other than market forces. I think that lack of liability separates engineers and other professions
from the software industry. Engineers aren't perfect, but if the building loses a chunk of concrete
and hits someone in the head, they are responsible financially if that failure is proven to be a
design failure.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

S. Anderson wrote: <<snip>>

Quoted message said:

obtaining damages from the software producer. The liability burden pertaining to the accuracy of
the data is still the responsbility of the engineer stamping the drawing.

Given the combinatorial explosion in complexity in even a moderately sized computer program it
is a good deal more difficult if not impossible to provide any warranty that the program has
no faults.

S. Anderson said:

It's not a case of "no faults". It's acceptance of responsbility, perhaps financial, that the
program will produce errors. Currently, there is absolutely no guarantee that software has to
work, other than market forces. I think that lack of liability separates engineers and other
professions from the software industry. Engineers aren't perfect, but if the building loses a
chunk of concrete and hits someone in the head, they are responsible financially if that failure
is proven to be a design failure.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

S. Anderson wrote: <<snip>>

Quoted message said:

obtaining damages from the software producer. The liability burden pertaining to the accuracy
of the data is still the responsbility of the engineer stamping the drawing.

Given the combinatorial explosion in complexity in even a moderately sized computer program it is
a good deal more difficult if not impossible to provide any warranty that the program has no
faults.

A software company I used to work for was sued because it was not 'rounding off' properly. It was a
financial package that was used by property management and construction companies. Fortunately, it
wasn't anything I was working on.

In 95% of the instances, sw will not result in life or death situations. There are, however,
applications (medical software, CAD/CAM software) in which a fault or defect would result in
potential loss of life. As a result, QA is JUST AS important as development. In my days as a QA
Lead, we would NOT hire engineers and turn them into QA people. We would hire Developers and use
their skills to solidify the QA of software.

Joe
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.

spam hater <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Zaf said:

[email hidden] (Hanker) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

> "The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:<[email hidden]>...
Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get.
(software especially, btw)

This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill
Gates started this term so he could claim to

Lets see: BS in ELectrical Engineering, Nearly completed MS in Comp Sci/Software Analysis.

This included: 2 years of Physics 2 years of semi-conductor Physics 2 years of software structure
and architecture 2 years of Advanced Hardware Design (both Analog and Hardware) Statics, Dynamics,
Materials Science, Chemistry More fscking math, including partial differential equations,
calculus, calculus and MORE calculus.

Oh... and ELECTROMAGNETICS and Laser Theory.

Not to mention the assorted classes in Philosophy, Engr Economics, Macro/Micro Econ, and technical
writing.

So.. before anyone says that Software Engineering is not engineering, then I ask them to step up
to the plate and show me what they did to accomplish their career.

Joe 'Yeah! I get touchy when my career is slapped!' Cipale

Joe: I've got a simple test I use for the appropriate use of the title "engineer". Is the claimant
entitled to sit for a PE exam? If so, sounds good... if not, he's (in the gender neutral sense, of
course) posing.

There are exams for the following:

• PE Agricultural • PE Architectural • PE Chemical • PE Civil • PE Control Systems • PE Electrical
and Computer • PE Environmental • PE Fire Protection • PE Industrial • PE Manufacturing • PE
Mechanical • PE Metallurgical • PE Mining and Mineral • PE Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering
• PE Nuclear • PE Petroleum • PE Structural I • PE Structural II

I don't see PE Software Engineering anywhere on the list :-)

Scott-

Scott Raymond said:

spam hater <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Zaf said:

[email hidden] (Hanker) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
> > "The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email hidden]>...
> Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get.
> (software especially, btw)

This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill
Gates started this term so he could claim to

Lets see: BS in ELectrical Engineering, Nearly completed MS in Comp Sci/Software Analysis.

This included: 2 years of Physics 2 years of semi-conductor Physics 2 years of software structure
and architecture 2 years of Advanced Hardware Design (both Analog and Hardware) Statics,
Dynamics, Materials Science, Chemistry More fscking math, including partial differential
equations, calculus, calculus and MORE calculus.

Oh... and ELECTROMAGNETICS and Laser Theory.

Not to mention the assorted classes in Philosophy, Engr Economics, Macro/Micro Econ, and
technical writing.

So.. before anyone says that Software Engineering is not engineering, then I ask them to step up
to the plate and show me what they did to accomplish their career.

Joe 'Yeah! I get touchy when my career is slapped!' Cipale

Joe: I've got a simple test I use for the appropriate use of the title "engineer". Is the claimant
entitled to sit for a PE exam? If so, sounds good... if not, he's (in the gender neutral sense, of
course) posing.

There are exams for the following:

• PE Agricultural • PE Architectural • PE Chemical • PE Civil • PE Control Systems • PE Electrical
and Computer • PE Environmental • PE Fire Protection • PE Industrial • PE Manufacturing • PE
Mechanical • PE Metallurgical • PE Mining and Mineral • PE Naval Architecture and Marine
Engineering • PE Nuclear • PE Petroleum • PE Structural I • PE Structural II

I don't see PE Software Engineering anywhere on the list :-)

Scott-

The IEEE has been pushing to have a 'Certification' process, similar to what EE/ME/CE/SE/Pet Eng go
through for the last few years. Especially since there is a great deal of sw that is now involved in
human/machine interaction. Much of the Nuclear tasks are controlled electrically through software
and embedded systems. Therefore, there is a need to have this become a certified field.

Please bear in mind: Software and Computers are a reletively new field. At the early beginnings, the
field was comprised primarily of Mathmaticians. As the need and desire for system level controls
developed, the field began to see Electrical, Mechanical and in some cases, Structural engineers
move into the work place. Why? Becuase they had a specific need to address (CAD/CAM, modeling,
control systems, etc).

On a very side note to this whole off-topic thread: I was watching The History Channel last week and
they were doing a show on the US Weapons of Mass Destruction that they are carrying over to Iraq. I
was very, very surprised (nahhhhhhh.. no I wasn't...) to see that many of the computer applications
were running on an embedded Linux system. It seemed odd, till the latest virus that hit this
weekend. Then I remebered that microslop is the most insecure computing platform on the planet. How
do you think Jeff Goldblum and Will Smith were able to tap into the telecom port and infect the
mother-ship with a virus in "Independence Day"? The Aliens were running a pre-release version of
XP... (Last comments DEFINITELY tonuge-in-cheek!)

Okay... back to the rollers and watching the Super-Bowl warmup. Hey, when it rains like a banshee
and one needs to ride, why not multi-task? 🙂

Joe
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.

Hope this isn't too OT as I'm not concentrating on bicycle engineering.

If you're into fiddling with mechanical stuff, maybe this is a good idea. However, I've found the
job market to be very cyclical. Probably if I was an extroverted go getting company man who cared
what the most popular CAD program 2 years from now would be I wouldn't find it so, but it can be
pretty tough if you're not like that. OTOH, the work can be interesting, and I think a lot of times
engineers aren't expected to sing the company song as much as other people. As in every field, your
sales ability may be more important than your technical ability, i.e. if you can't convince people
then they won't pay attention no matter how good your ideas are. (I hate sales, probably why I don't
have a job right now.) If you're going to be very focused and motivated, you might do well.

P.S. I've recently had to take work as a laborer (i.e. scraping paint and carrying shingles) and
now, much more to my taste, as an editorial assistant. The engineering money was much
better when I could get it.

P.P. Your comment on the seeming irrelevance of math may be off base, unless they've changed the
curriculum radically. There are real world uses for most of the math I saw in high school,
tho I haven't used all of it personally. Certainly the ideas, and occasionally the math
itself, from geometry, trig, and calculus are very handy, especially when you're taking
engineering classes in college. After all, what if you forget the formula for the volume of
a sphere and you don't have a reference book handy so that you need to rederive the
formula? (This happened to me, tho I couldn't do it now, and maybe your memory is better
than mine.) Apart from the utility, some of the math, engineering and physics are
beautiful. I didn't believe what people said about Maxwell's equations until I got to them
myself and saw they were wonderful. Again, I can't remember them anymore and working as a
mechanical engineer I've never used them, but it was worth it.

P.P.P. You may not want to always limit yourself to bicycles. Lots of similar design problems
elsewhere. For instance, I recall the 50,000 bagel/hr cooker used a big chain in the belt.
It was so big that if you emptied the water, took off the covers, took off the bagel
holders, and speeded it up you could probably have a group indoor training ride on it!

P.P.P.P. Get a copy of "Bicycling Science" by Frank Rowland Whit (sp?) and David Gordon Wilson

The Reeper said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Thank you very much,

Peter

--
"We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

"Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle

--
Lincoln Ross NOTE ADDRESS CHANGE: [email hidden]

Peter,

My advise is to not worry at all about the job market, but rather choose a field that you are
absolutely, 100% passionate about. You can make a million dollars in the janitorial field if it is
your passion. I can remember about 7 years ago when a fellow engineer was advising a college student
to stay out of engineering but rather to go into computers. Today, the computer field is glutted.

If you go into a career that you love, you will be happy while at work. If you choose a field that
you are minimally passionate about, the days, weeks, months and years will drag by.

Michael

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Thank you very much,

Peter

Hello....Ima sophmore in high school and im wondering how does geometry fall into enigneering? THX ( this is for a project)

"GeometryStudent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello....Ima sophmore in high school and im wondering how does geometry fall into enigneering? THX
( this is for a project)

Pay more attention in ENGLISH class first.

Bill "Ima Hardass" S.

GeometryStudent may have said:

Hello....Ima sophmore in high school and im wondering how does geometry fall into enigneering? THX
( this is for a project)

Good grief; it's fundamental! Geometry is (in part) about measuring surface areas of, distances
between points on, and volumes of shapes, and relating them to one another; is that a *hint*?
Virtually everything in Mech E uses geometry, and it has relevance galore in Electrical Engineering
and Chemical Engineering as well.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

Werehatrack said:

GeometryStudent may have said:

Hello....Ima sophmore in high school and im wondering how does geometry fall into enigneering? THX
( this is for a project)

Good grief; it's fundamental! Geometry is (in part) about measuring surface areas of, distances
between points on, and volumes of shapes, and relating them to one another; is that a *hint*?
Virtually everything in Mech E uses geometry, and it has relevance galore in Electrical
Engineering and Chemical Engineering as well.

I think high school geometry is more about a logical thinking process. And of course, every engineer
needs to think in logical, orderly steps to solve problems.

--
Skuke Reverse the domain name to send email

Geometry student-<< Hello....Ima sophmore in high school and im wondering how does geometry fall
into enigneering? THX >><BR><BR>

I'm thinking you should take a wee bit more english...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Mark Hickey

B'The Reeper said:

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....

Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.

Learn to love mass transit or better yet, riding your bike everyone.

Have yourself sterilized ASAP. Kids are very expensive. Neutering would be better, since it will
avoid the considerable expense of dating.

Hang out with other people who can spend an hour in a bike shop touching, lifting and smelling
without actually buying anything - and consider the time well-spent.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame [/B]

LOL. Those $695 ti frames aren't quite paying the bills, eh Mark?

My advise: When something you enjoy becomes your job, you no longer enjoy it. Get a job that pays the bills and gives you enough time to enjoy cycling.
MT - who's programming job will undoubtedly be done from India in the near future
.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Zaf
[email hidden] (Hanker) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
especially, btw)

This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill Gates
started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and archictecting
software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be considered
'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a thread is
something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take electormagnetic field
theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.

Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several years
ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was the
lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.

Funnily enough, the place I work had to change my job title from 'software engineer' because some engineering certification board was going to sue us. Aparently, we weren't board certified engineers so we couldn't use the term. I am now a 'software consultant'. I wonder if that was a promotion?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by S. Anderson
It's not a case of "no faults". It's acceptance of responsbility, perhaps financial, that the
program will produce errors. Currently, there is absolutely no guarantee that software has to work,
other than market forces. I think that lack of liability separates engineers and other professions
from the software industry. Engineers aren't perfect, but if the building loses a chunk of concrete
and hits someone in the head, they are responsible financially if that failure is proven to be a
design failure.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

I respectfully disagree. At least in regards to custom software. As in any business, software developers are contratually obligated to produce a product that meets the business requirements. If I develop software that fails and ultimately costs my business partner money, I am liable for that loss. I simply didn't uphold my end of the contract. If, however, the requirements failed to specify correctly, I may or may not be liable.