Prospective Engineer

Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you graduate!
Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can be a tough
life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions such as
dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering future in North
America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign countries I suspect. That's
not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if you could say it's a great
market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what pays the bills, but don't ever
give up on a dream.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Thank you very much,

Peter

--
"We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

"Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Thank you very much,

Peter

I am an engineer and although I am still in the field, I've strayed far from where I started. I have
my own company now and am in the process of commercializing some patented technology that I along
with a business partner invented. I have heard bad things about today's job market for engineers -
certainly when compared with the early to mid 90's. Large employers are slashing even their
technical workforces. That seems to be driving students into other disciplines which means there
will probably be a shortage of engineers in another five to ten years. One caveat is what is
currently is happening with programmers - and may be in the cards for engineers too to some extent -
and that's farming out to low wage countries like India which have an abundance of well-trained
technical people. As far as getting a job designing bicycles in this country, I think the odds are
very long. You might be able to go that route via the aerospace/defense industry with an M.E.
background. That industry employs many engineers, is likely to grow since we're apparently becoming
the world's policeman and is unlikely to see engineering jobs exported to other countries. After
getting some experience, you might be able to snag a bicycle related position. Or more likely, start
your own firm. Just be sure either you or someone close to you has deep pockets!

The Reeper said:

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....

Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.

Learn to love mass transit or better yet, riding your bike everyone.

Have yourself sterilized ASAP. Kids are very expensive. Neutering would be better, since it will
avoid the considerable expense of dating.

Hang out with other people who can spend an hour in a bike shop touching, lifting and smelling
without actually buying anything - and consider the time well-spent.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Thank you very much,

Peter

Peter, You're really gonna have to looove bikes to want an engineering job in the bike biz. I've
worked with many, and saw quite a few burt out by
it. Long hours, comparitively low pay, travel to armpits like Tai Chung, sales managers always
wanting stuff done cheaply, product managers always wanting the impossible to work, marketing
managers making claims you can't support, and an industry full to the brim with huge egos. It's
truley a labor of love, and the guys who do it well will tell you so! Good luck. --JIm --Jim

Gee, pretty grim message your sending me. I appreciate all of the advice given to me.

I now might consider my Plan B for careers, seeing as how it's a fairly poor industry to get into.

Thanks,

Peter

--
"We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

"Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle

I was watching this thread and remembering my own experience with this group 10 years ago.

check out the thread that even solicited a response from Jobst!

tinyurl.com4s08Open ↗

I eventually did wind up in the industry for a little over two years. It all depends on the person
and the situation, but for me, it was too much "bikes" at that point in my life. I will say that the
experience opened doors and gave me a great deal of exposure to many facets of product development -
this was key in my professional development. I wouldn't trade have traded the experience for
anything - and the trips to foreign countries can be rewarding - that's how I met my wife.

I like bikes and riding them a whole lot more now than I did a few years ago - that is for sure.

My advice is simple, and best expressed through the words of Heny David Thoreau:

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined."

Best of luck,
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The Reeper said:

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles. Are there any engineers on this ng? Any advice? What's the job market like?

Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....

Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.

Cooking is like, a pain, dude. Besides, Powerbars have all your carbs and stuff already measured
out. Plus, if you work in the industry, you could probably get 'em for free...

Quoted message said:

Learn to love mass transit or better yet, riding your bike everyone.

Well, it is the most efficient means of transportation (snort)

Quoted message said:

Have yourself sterilized ASAP. Kids are very expensive. Neutering would be better, since it will
avoid the considerable expense of dating.

Who needs kids when your friends are still "young" enough to be calling each other "dude" at 45?
Besides, kids ride too slow, and complain too much... And dude, everyone knows engineers don't date!

Quoted message said:

Hang out with other people who can spend an hour in a bike shop touching, lifting and smelling
without actually buying anything - and consider the time well-spent.

Dude!

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles> > Thank you very much,

Peter

Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
especially, btw)

S. Anderson said:

Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you graduate!
Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can be a tough
life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions such as
dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering future in
North America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign countries I
suspect. That's not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if you could say
it's a great market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what pays the bills, but
don't ever give up on a dream.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

Scott,

Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
* Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
* Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things like
that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
* Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.

Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor (have
YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept of
'medicine'😉, nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).

Joe
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

Some things you could do to prepare for a job in the bike industry....

Fast regularly to see if it bothers you.

Cooking is like, a pain, dude. Besides, Powerbars have all your carbs and stuff already measured
out. Plus, if you work in the industry, you could probably get 'em for free...

Free? I wish! Those things are like Dope! you only ever get enough free to get you hooked! ... ya
gotta learn to cook dude making your own is the only way ya can afford to eat them all the time...

besides someone you ride with probably paid their electric bill and wont mind you using
their stove...

Hanker said:

Quoted message said:

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering, and then I hope to design
bicycles> > Thank you very much,

Peter

Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
especially, btw)

Tell that to all of us (like myself, who ARE SW engineers) currently out of work...

Joe
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.

"Hanker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hello,

Just joined this ng, and liking it.

I am currently a high school student looking to go into engineering,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

then I hope to design bicycles> > Thank you very much,

Peter

Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
especially, btw)

All kidding aside, I agree. Actually, mechanical engineering grads still get the highest pay right
out of college, according to some statistics I read recently.

However, what really matters is that you'll be happy in an engineering job. Do you think you'd be
happier working for a huge company, or a small one? Or, do you have a burning desire to be
self-employed? Do you like being left alone to do your thing, or be out in the world dealing with
people? Do you like to focus completely on one thing, or do you enjoy the variety of juggling many
tasks? Try to meet some engineers, and see what it's really like out there.

Matt O.

"spam hater" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

S. Anderson wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you
graduate! Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can
be a tough life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions
such as dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering
future in North America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign
countries I suspect. That's not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if
you could say it's a great market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what
pays the bills, but don't ever give up on a dream.

Quoted message said:

Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
* Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
* Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things
like that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
* Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.

I agree. Furthermore, I'd give my eye teeth for a trip to Taiwan on someone else's nickel -- even
the crappiest corner of it.

Quoted message said:

Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor
(have YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept
of 'medicine'😉, nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).

There are pluses and minuses to any job, but if you're really into your work the minuses don't
matter. It's really about lifestyle choice -- what do you want to do with yourself when you get
out of bed every day? What kind of people do you want to be around? What do you want to fill your
head with?

If you're already designing and building things for yourself, reading all the technical journals and
books you can get your hands on, and keeping track of numbers like your car's gas mileage, etc.,
then you're probably well on your way to being an engineer. But if your eyes glaze over while
reading Scientific American, if you find things like computers and VCRs frustrating, and if you hate
math, then you're probably not cut out for it.

Matt O.

[email hidden] (Hanker) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
especially, btw)

This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill Gates
started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and archictecting
software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be considered
'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a thread is
something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take electormagnetic field
theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.

Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several years
ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was the
lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.

Have you priced engineer's liability insurance lately?! :-) Although I painted a somewhat grim
picture, it still really boils down to what you want to do. Some people are born to be engineers.
Jobst is one of those people. It's just part of their life. But if you don't really love it, it can
be tough. Matt mentions travelling to Taiwan, but it's not quite like he imagines I suspect. The
travel is sometimes for extended periods, 8 months in Mexico, 3 months back home, 12 months in South
Africa. It can be a grind, especially if you have a family. The pay, at least in Canada, is so-so,
unless you're a partner or owner of a firm, compared to dentists and doctors (although doctors are
taking a beating these days..). I always figured, if you love what you do, even if you're broke,
you're still a winner. At least you'll die happy, not just rich.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

PS you don't hear me arguing about the lawyer crack, do ya?!?! ;-)

"spam hater" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

S. Anderson wrote:

Scott,

Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
* Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
* Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things
like that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
* Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.

Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor
(have YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept
of 'medicine'😉, nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).

Joe
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a
consulting fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.

Matt O'Toole said:

"spam hater" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

S. Anderson wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well, Reeper, my advice is become a doctor/dentist/lawyer/broker!!!! Engineering can be an
un-inspiring, difficult, grinding, boring un-rewarding life, and it gets worse after you
graduate! Seriously, engineering is great if you really love engineering. If you don't, it can
be a tough life: lots of travel, tight deadlines, not great pay compared to other professions
such as dentist/lawyer/doctor. I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is much engineering
future in North America for bicycle stuff. Most of what you buy is engineered in foreign
countries I suspect. That's not to say there isn't something you could do, but I'm not sure if
you could say it's a great market. You'll have to balance doing what you love and doing what
pays the bills, but don't ever give up on a dream.

Quoted message said:

Many of the 'cons' you mention here are what I enjoy about my career.
* Being told to attempt the impossible, and pulling it off!
* Having the vision to try something new when others (read management) say 'We don't do things
like that here!' and then doing it succesfully.
* Having the balls to stand up for what is right, even when marketing dweebs promise too much.

I agree. Furthermore, I'd give my eye teeth for a trip to Taiwan on someone else's nickel -- even
the crappiest corner of it.

Quoted message said:

Yeah.. that has been my job, and it has served me well. I wouldn't want to be a dentist/doctor
(have YOU priced malpractice insurance lately? And besides, HMOs are taking the away the concept
of 'medicine'😉, nor a lawyer (I have ethics!).

There are pluses and minuses to any job, but if you're really into your work the minuses don't
matter. It's really about lifestyle choice -- what do you want to do with yourself when you get
out of bed every day? What kind of people do you want to be around? What do you want to fill your
head with?

If you're already designing and building things for yourself, reading all the technical journals
and books you can get your hands on, and keeping track of numbers like your car's gas mileage,
etc., then you're probably well on your way to being an engineer. But if your eyes glaze over
while reading Scientific American, if you find things like computers and VCRs frustrating, and if
you hate math, then you're probably not cut out for
it.

Matt O.

Actually,

My eyes glaze over reading most of the tripe posted on r.b.r. I have no prbolem discussing Keynesian
Economic or Partial 3rd-Order Differntial Equations (Thank you, Butterworth, for helping to make
thier use possible! )

Joe 'Former audio-geek turned software developer' Cipale

P.S. - To all of you who requested a copy of my linux-based training log, I will be posting a copy
of it for download in the next few days. I have been making some changes and fixes prior to
creating the tarball for distro.
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.

Well, I don't exactly read all of the technical journals (though I have read a couple copies of
American Scientist - deep stuff!). But I enjoy math when I can see its future value. Some of the
math just doesn't seem to have any logical applications (I'm entering the equivalent of freshman
university calculus next semester). And no, I don't find computers frustrating (if I did, I don't
think I'd use this ng). Any technical journals you can recommend?

Again, thanks for all of the advice,

Peter

--
"We are free to be free." Nelson Mandela

"Politics is much too important a matter to be left to the politicians." Charles de Gaulle

A good point. In my mind, engineering is a profession where you have responsibility and liability.
Anyone can call themselves a software engineer, but they really have no professional liablility
associated with their work. Indeed, here in Canada, there is a push to prevent people from using the
term "engineer" in their title unless they are, in fact, licensed engineers with the Association of
Professional Engineers. And this isn't just asking nicely, it would be a punishable offence.

Having said that, I think that as the software industry develops, hopefully, they will eventually
have some certification process to ensure that you're getting professional programmers. Currently,
if you use a program to design spans and the program produces incorrect data, you have no recourse
for obtaining damages from the software producer. The liability burden pertaining to the accuracy of
the data is still the responsbility of the engineer stamping the drawing.

Cheers,

Scott..
--
Scott Anderson

"Zaf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Hanker) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill
Gates started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and
archictecting software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be
considered 'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a
thread is something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take
electormagnetic field theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.

Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several
years ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was
the lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.

Zaf said:

[email hidden] (Hanker) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The Reeper" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Would be an excellent choice Peter, this country needs all the engineers it can get. (software
especially, btw)

This term software engineer always bothered me. Could be I'm biased, but it seemed to me Bill
Gates started this term so he could claim to be an engineer himself. Yes, writing and
archictecting software requires logical and rigorous thinking, but it will certainly never be
considered 'engineering' in my mind. I never took classes in data structures and OOP; to me a
thread is something used to repair a clothing. I suspect software engineers did not take
electormagnetic field theory and materials science, they really are seperate fields.

Now that I'm done with my rant, I will mention that there was a promotional video made several
years ago for National Engineers Week (coming up in mid Feb) that was based on bicycles, Trek was
the lucky company. It was made more for the middle school level, but if you get a visit from some
engineers during NEW, ask them for 'The bike video' as we call it.

Lets see: BS in ELectrical Engineering, Nearly completed MS in Comp Sci/Software Analysis.

This included: 2 years of Physics 2 years of semi-conductor Physics 2 years of software structure
and architecture 2 years of Advanced Hardware Design (both Analog and Hardware) Statics, Dynamics,
Materials Science, Chemistry More fscking math, including partial differential equations, calculus,
calculus and MORE calculus.

Oh... and ELECTROMAGNETICS and Laser Theory.

Not to mention the assorted classes in Philosophy, Engr Economics, Macro/Micro Econ, and
technical writing.

So.. before anyone says that Software Engineering is not engineering, then I ask them to step up to
the plate and show me what they did to accomplish their career.

Joe 'Yeah! I get touchy when my career is slapped!' Cipale
--

Pursuant to U.S. code,title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, and consistent with Oregon
State Law, any and all unsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a consulting
fee of $500.00 U.S. E-Mailing denotes acceptance of these terms. Consult
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html> for details.