Purchase disaster #2

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

No, not another purchase, just an update :-)

My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).

Quoted message said:

It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
riding.

Q. So what's the common denominator?
A. The rider.
45-50km/h are flat road speeds.
"Refund? Refund? Refund? Refund? refund refund" ...quote from
Breaking Away 1979.
God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
properly with the mind he's got.

--
Mark Lee

"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, not another purchase, just an update :-)

My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).

It does seem (from this limited sample!) as though carbon bikes just
don't work for some people - he takes a medium frame, but he's only
62kg. I'll find out tomorrow whether he's trying any more bikes, or
at a standoff with the shop.

It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
riding.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

At 62kg's with a light frame, I'm just wondering if the wobble is the last
sensation just before lift off.

Mark Lee said:

Q. So what's the common denominator?
A. The rider.
45-50km/h are flat road speeds.
"Refund? Refund? Refund? Refund? refund refund" ...quote from
Breaking Away 1979.
God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
properly with the mind he's got.

--
Mark Lee

Agree ( ithink i mentioned in 1st thread that mate being lighter was something to look at...)

when in the movie is that quote?
Love that movie

F "cant convince semi driver to motorpace me tho" Dutch

flyingdutch said:

Mark Lee said:

Q. So what's the common denominator?
A. The rider.
45-50km/h are flat road speeds.
"Refund? Refund? Refund? Refund? refund refund" ...quote from
Breaking Away 1979.
God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
properly with the mind he's got.

--
Mark Lee

Agree ( ithink i mentioned in 1st thread that mate being lighter was
something to look at...)

when in the movie is that quote?
Love that movie

F "cant convince semi driver to motorpace me tho" Dutch

SPOILER ALERT:

Haven't seen the movie for 20 years, but it is where the son was working
at dad's car yard and gives a refund to some blokes who bought their
cheap bunky back whennit broke down. Ends up as the catalyst for dad's
nervous breakdown...

Love that movie...

--
Brett

"Michael Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No, not another purchase, just an update :-)

My friend has now tried two Giant TCRs and a Bianchi
928 Veloce, and they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
of his riding position. We took the Bianchi out today, and the
only difference is that the wobble kicks in at 50 rather than
45 km/h (and it's $400 more, and feels heavier).

It does seem (from this limited sample!) as though carbon bikes just
don't work for some people - he takes a medium frame, but he's only
62kg. I'll find out tomorrow whether he's trying any more bikes, or
at a standoff with the shop.

It's not really clear from the working on the Consumer Affairs website
whether he's entitled to a refund, and he didn't get a definite answer
from them last time. Chances are no-one there knows much about
riding.

Hate to say it, but it's your friend who is the common denominator here. He
must be doing something wrong on decents to get speed wobbles. Tell the guy
to relax. Clamp the top tube with his knees. Try pedalling slowly instead
of freewheeling. Don't go white knuckled.
Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?
Gemma

<Snip>
they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
of his riding position.
<Snip>

I agree, take him back for a refund. :p

"Bikesoiler" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<Snip>
they all wobble on him on descents, regardless
of his riding position.
<Snip>

I agree, take him back for a refund. :p

--
Bikesoiler

whereas I would generally agree with everyone here (rider problem likely),
one other possibility may exist - new tyres less than even? For example, I
have Specialized All Condition Pro 700*23c tyres on my 2005 Roubaix Comp
which kind of wobbled a bit until they got fully "run-in" after a few
hundred km. Now the bike is tracking true and straight.

PS I road tested 2005 Bianchi 928 Veloce-10 ($4500) - a nice bike - and then
tried a $5000 2005 Specialized Roubaix Comp. For me there was no comparison,
I immediately bought Specialized. Your mileage may vary.

Mark Lee said:

45-50km/h are flat road speeds.

It doesn't happen when he's pedalling solidly (i.e. on the flat or gentle
downhill).

Quoted message said:

God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
properly with the mind he's got.

Since you haven't sat behind him and watched him try all sorts of
positions on these bikes, I find that comment pretty arrogant.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

Gemma_k said:

Hate to say it, but it's your friend who is the common denominator here.

Oh course - I never suggested that there's anything inherently wrong with
these bikes, just the /combination/ of light bike and very light rider.

Quoted message said:

He
must be doing something wrong on decents to get speed wobbles. Tell the guy
to relax. Clamp the top tube with his knees. Try pedalling slowly instead
of freewheeling. Don't go white knuckled.

We've tried all this, of course, and everything else short of doing
handstands on it.

Quoted message said:

Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?

No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

Yuri Budilov said:

PS I road tested 2005 Bianchi 928 Veloce-10 ($4500) - a nice bike - and then
tried a $5000 2005 Specialized Roubaix Comp. For me there was no comparison,
I immediately bought Specialized. Your mileage may vary.

I wasn't taken by the Veloce gear. It seemed to be quite heavy (according
to the highly scientific rear-end-lift test), and the up-change tabs are
awkwardly placed for cruising and impossibly placed for sprinting. I
didn't ride it, though.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

Michael Warner said:

Gemma_k said:

Hate to say it, but it's your friend who is the common denominator here.

Oh course - I never suggested that there's anything inherently wrong with
these bikes, just the /combination/ of light bike and very light rider.

The Euro Pros seem to manage just fine with that combo and they are
probably lighter still.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He must be doing something wrong on decents to get speed wobbles. Tell the guy
to relax. Clamp the top tube with his knees. Try pedalling slowly instead
of freewheeling. Don't go white knuckled.

We've tried all this, of course, and everything else short of doing
handstands on it.

Has he ridden no-hands down one of these hills at 50, 60, 70, whatever?

I do all my descending with a handstand.. try that. 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?

No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.

How large is the "wobble"?

If ridden no-hands is the bike uncontrollable?

Have 'you' ridden the bike yet? It doesn't matter about size if you're
coasting down the hill.

hippy
"no hands!"

hippy said:

The Euro Pros seem to manage just fine with that combo and they are
probably lighter still.

Good point, where climbers are concerned. Of course, they'd get
custom geometry, and maybe even custom construction, if any such
problems appeared.

Quoted message said:

Has he ridden no-hands down one of these hills at 50, 60, 70, whatever?

No, not no-hands, but with just a couple of fingers resting on the bars
on each side.

Quoted message said:

I do all my descending with a handstand.. try that. 😉

Right :-)

Quoted message said:

How large is the "wobble"?

It looks to me as though the bar ends travel about 4 inches back
and forth once it sets in.

Quoted message said:

If ridden no-hands is the bike uncontrollable?

Have 'you' ridden the bike yet? It doesn't matter about size if you're
coasting down the hill.

No, I'd like to try, and I've offered to swap the bikes down a hill, but
he won't go for it, unfortunately. I'm not sure why he's blocking the
progress of science like this :-)

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Mark Lee said:

45-50km/h are flat road speeds.

It doesn't happen when he's pedalling solidly (i.e. on the flat or gentle
downhill).

Quoted message said:

God doesn't give refunds. Your friend'll just have to learn to ride
properly with the mind he's got.

Since you haven't sat behind him and watched him try all sorts of
positions on these bikes, I find that comment pretty arrogant.

Well, some people just wobble... no matter what bike they're on.
--
Mark Lee

Michael Warner said:

No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.

Been followign this one for a while and I think that last statement is
key. I think it's a confidence thing. Last year I would do a top speed
of around 55kmh on a steep downhill before the bike would start to feel
"twitchy", but could go a bit higher if I was pedalling hard. I just
assumed the pedalling settled the bike down. But after nearly a year of
riding on steep hills each week, 60kmh is comfortable, and it's not till
I hit nearly 80kmh that I get nervous. I'm convined it was me and not
the bike, especially when the "twitchy" speed dropped immediately after
a crash but increased again over time.

DaveB "still trying to crack 80kmh"

Michael Warner said:

Quoted message said:

Surently he doesn't get speed wobbles at 45kmh on the flat?

No. Solid pedalling seems to prevent it.

Aaaah. thought...

solid pedalling would (back me up or shoot me down here people) will move your weight forward, ie ONTO the front fork/wheel more.

perhaps some way to move weight forward all the time?
seat forward a touch and shorter stem(presuming current reach is OK)
Perhaps there is another way to fix this weight distribution problem that Im missing...

just a thought 🙄

flyingdutch said:

solid pedalling would (back me up or shoot me down here people) will
move your weight forward, ie ONTO the front fork/wheel more.

I wouldn't have thought so, unless you've shifted forward and gripped
the bars for some extra leverage against the pedals, as in a sprint. When
I'm pedalling hard in cruise mode, I don't think I have much weight on
either the saddle /or/ the bars - most of it is on alternate cranks.

Quoted message said:

perhaps some way to move weight forward all the time?
seat forward a touch and shorter stem(presuming current reach is OK)

The shop put a shorter stem (by 20mm, I think) on the Giant for one ride,
but he said it didn't make a difference to the wobble. What difference to
bike handling does stem length make, in general?

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

DaveB said:

Been followign this one for a while and I think that last statement is
key. I think it's a confidence thing. Last year I would do a top speed
of around 55kmh on a steep downhill before the bike would start to feel
"twitchy", but could go a bit higher if I was pedalling hard. I just
assumed the pedalling settled the bike down. But after nearly a year of
riding on steep hills each week, 60kmh is comfortable, and it's not till
I hit nearly 80kmh that I get nervous. I'm convined it was me and not
the bike, especially when the "twitchy" speed dropped immediately after
a crash but increased again over time.

Thanks, that's interesting, and reinforces the point that small, light pro
climbers certainly do well on these bikes (at least, I assume they don't
swap to a sand-filled steel unit to descend!)

The saga appears to be over, anyway - he's accepted the Giant, and
is optimistic that he'll learn to descend on it at full speed. We'll see.
I'll tell him your story, which may cheer him up a bit :-)

FWIW, the bike (like mine) was from Super Elliotts in Rundle St.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo

Michael Warner said:

The shop put a shorter stem (by 20mm, I think) on the Giant for one ride,
but he said it didn't make a difference to the wobble. What difference to
bike handling does stem length make, in general?

that's only half of what i suggested!
if anything i would have thought putting a shorter stem would bring his weight back, ie exacerbate the problem.

Its not about 'gripping hard'. Its about weight transfer/location.
A good setup can let you sit up and still have it.

I have heard nothing but good things about Elliots from locals.
They are always sold as the 'old school' type. persist with it.
perfect riding position is a rare and beautiful thing...

flyingdutch said:

I have heard nothing but good things about Elliots from locals.
They are always sold as the 'old school' type.

My impression is that their road business is driven by a
high turnover of Giants, and that their prices are good, but
service is a bit lacking and the quality of the staff is rather
variable. Since the Giants are kit bikes, they don't have much
patience with people who want to change anything on them,
and they're a "pick your size and take it or leave it"
proposition. It's worked out well for me, but I wouldn't want
to run into real problems with one of their bikes.

Quoted message said:

persist with it.
perfect riding position is a rare and beautiful thing...

I hope it works out for him, not least because I feel partly
responsible for the mess. At least, given the popularity of
the Giants, he ought to be able to sell it without too much of
a loss if worst comes to worst, since it's the current model
(with 10-speed Ultegra and those carbon brakes <sigh>😉.

--
bpo gallery at http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/mvw1/bpo