Q-factor versus B.bracket lenght?

BigBen said:

Hi All,

Supose you normally feel better with pedals that let you position your
feet further away from the cranks - like I find the Time Atacs do -
could you possibly have that same effect with a longer (or wider, if
you like) bottom bracket, that would place the cranks further apart
from each other??

TIA,
jbr

A longer BB spindle, just to increase the distance between the pedals,
also complicates the chainline and FD action. Generally not a good
idea. Differtencers in pedal spindles is a better solution, like
Sppedplay, that have different spindle lengths for their pedals.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A longer BB spindle, just to increase the distance between the pedals,
also complicates the chainline and FD action.

Yes, I do understand that, but still might be willing to give it a
try.

Quoted message said:

idea. Differtencers in pedal spindles is a better solution, like
Sppedplay, that have different spindle lengths for their pedals.

Had never heard about it. Any other brands do that? Say, Look,
Shimano, Crank B. (specially in the road models)?

I just noticed Time Time RXE allows Q-factor adjustment, at a
competitive price. Announced float is not as good as with say, Look's
red cleats...

C ya,
jbr

BigBen said:

Hi All,

Supose you normally feel better with pedals that let you position your
feet further away from the cranks - like I find the Time Atacs do -
could you possibly have that same effect with a longer (or wider, if
you like) bottom bracket, that would place the cranks further apart
from each other??

TIA,
jbr

Possibly it might help you, but not me. I tend to cycle "heels
inwards" - the outside surfaces of my cranks are polished where my
heels rub off them when wearing overshoes, I come close to clipping the
chainstays with my heels, etc. In my case, a wider BB won't help.

Moving my cleats right "inwards" moves my feet outwards, and between
that and setting the rotational angle carefully, I'm fine on most
bikes. I use SPD-SL, which give a large supported area under the sole,
and I haven't found any problems from offsetting them like this.

You may get just enough extra "Q" by moving your cleats in/shoes out a
little. Failing that, I've heard of, but never seen, pedal shaft
extenders, and some pedals have a longer shaft than others.

hth,

bookieb

BigBen said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A longer BB spindle, just to increase the distance between the pedals,
also complicates the chainline and FD action.

Yes, I do understand that, but still might be willing to give it a
try.

Even a "big" bb spindle change would have a minimal effect on "Q", but
a large one on chainline, etc. If you get 5mm longer it gives each foot
only 2.5mm more space but almost certianly will adversely affect
shifting.
Joseph

BigBen said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A longer BB spindle, just to increase the distance between the pedals,
also complicates the chainline and FD action.

Yes, I do understand that, but still might be willing to give it a
try.

Quoted message said:

idea. Differtencers in pedal spindles is a better solution, like
Sppedplay, that have different spindle lengths for their pedals.

Had never heard about it. Any other brands do that? Say, Look,
Shimano, Crank B. (specially in the road models)?

There are also spacer washers you can fit on your pedal spindles to
move them further out. See link below.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/georgia06/?id=united_cruz/Tony_Cruz_s_United_pedals

Quoted message said:

I just noticed Time Time RXE allows Q-factor adjustment, at a
competitive price. Announced float is not as good as with say, Look's
red cleats...

Time float is +5 degrees and -5 degrees, 10 degrees total. Look float
is 9 degrees total.

Quoted message said:

C ya,
jbr

"BigBen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

Supose you normally feel better with pedals that let you position your
feet further away from the cranks - like I find the Time Atacs do -
could you possibly have that same effect with a longer (or wider, if
you like) bottom bracket, that would place the cranks further apart
from each other??

TIA,
jbr

You may wish to try "knee savers". They extend your pedals about 20mm each
side. This was a big help for me becasue I pedal toes out. You can then
shift your cleats in 3-5 mm to reduce the offset by a little. If your
cleats are all the way to the outside of your shoe, you will then be able to
push them in a good bit and get your foot centered. BTW, this also fixed
some abnormal cleat wear because of the way my foot was cocked.

I tried the Look CX-6, but they only allow a 10 mm offset, a bit too small
to fix my problem.

Do a google search on "knee savers".

Good
luck

Bob
M

BigBen said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A longer BB spindle, just to increase the distance between the pedals,
also complicates the chainline and FD action.

Yes, I do understand that, but still might be willing to give it a
try.

Quoted message said:

idea. Differtencers in pedal spindles is a better solution, like
Sppedplay, that have different spindle lengths for their pedals.

Had never heard about it. Any other brands do that? Say, Look,
Shimano, Crank B. (specially in the road models)?

AFAIK, only Speedplay and TA (maybe) make different length pedal axles:
http://www.speedplay.com/
http://www.bicycleclassics.com/pedals.html

Then there's Knee Savers for the really duck-footed:
http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm

Jeff

Quoted message said:

There are also spacer washers you can fit on your pedal spindles to
move them further out. See link below.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/georgia06/?id=united_cruz/Tony_Cruz_s_United_pedals

I had already thought about that myself, and was descouraged by the
fear that the decreased insertion into of the pedal into the crank
would comprimise reliability. Apparently not!

Seems the easiest, most "customisable", and even cheaper option to
solve the issue.

Thank you for sharing the experience!

Quoted message said:

Time float is +5 degrees and -5 degrees, 10 degrees total. Look float
is 9 degrees total.

Could you please explain what you mean by +degrees and -degrees?

I've never seen Time road cleats live, but in the pictures I've seen
so far, they seem both slipery, and fragile, if and when you need to
take a few steps off the bike, stop in the middle of traffic, etc.

By comparison, I've read that SPD-SL cleats are less slipery than most
others... Does that match anyone's real life experience?

Thank you,
jbr

On 15 May 2006 22:51:51 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Then there's Knee Savers for the really duck-footed:
http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm

I don't think I need that much extension as 2 cm (although that could
also be trimmed, of course).

Besides, never been able to find this for sale on my side of the
Atlantic. Anyone has had beter luck?

Thanks,
jbr

On 15 May 2006 06:51:40 -0700, "bookieb" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Moving my cleats right "inwards" moves my feet outwards, and between
that and setting the rotational angle carefully, I'm fine on most

Seem very interesting - my Time Atac cleat do not allow any sideways
adjustment; moving them forwards and backwards is just about the only
adjustment I can make in their positioning in the shoe.

Quoted message said:

bikes. I use SPD-SL, which give a large supported area under the sole,
and I haven't found any problems from offsetting them like this.

Of the road type pedals/cleats, is it my impression, or the Look
cleats, both Delta and Keo, do not allow such lateral adjustment, as
you describe the SPD-SLs do??

Thanks,
jbr

Rebecca Morris said:

You may wish to try "knee savers". They extend your pedals about 20mm each

Thanks! I've ssen those already, and I don't think I need that much
adjustment.

Best,
jbr

BigBen said:

Quoted message said:

There are also spacer washers you can fit on your pedal spindles to
move them further out. See link below.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/georgia06/?id=united_cruz/Tony_Cruz_s_United_pedals

I had already thought about that myself, and was descouraged by the
fear that the decreased insertion into of the pedal into the crank
would comprimise reliability. Apparently not!

Seems the easiest, most "customisable", and even cheaper option to
solve the issue.

Thank you for sharing the experience!

Quoted message said:

Time float is +5 degrees and -5 degrees, 10 degrees total. Look float
is 9 degrees total.

Could you please explain what you mean by +degrees and -degrees?

I've never seen Time road cleats live, but in the pictures I've seen
so far, they seem both slipery, and fragile, if and when you need to
take a few steps off the bike, stop in the middle of traffic, etc.

By comparison, I've read that SPD-SL cleats are less slipery than most
others... Does that match anyone's real life experience?

SPD-SL is way less slippery than the old Time style, and the Look style
too. And not too fragile. And more stable too. (I twisted my ankle once
stepping out of some Time pedals) They will get beat walking around,
but they seem to hold up well to my limited walking with 230lbs. I only
walk very limited distances (to from my house and the road, into a shop
to buy an iced tea, etc). When I use them I am on a bike ride, nothing
else. If there were any planned walking at all, I'd use something else,
like MTB shoes.

Joseph

BigBen said:

On 15 May 2006 06:51:40 -0700, "bookieb" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Moving my cleats right "inwards" moves my feet outwards, and between
that and setting the rotational angle carefully, I'm fine on most

Seem very interesting - my Time Atac cleat do not allow any sideways
adjustment; moving them forwards and backwards is just about the only
adjustment I can make in their positioning in the shoe.

Quoted message said:

bikes. I use SPD-SL, which give a large supported area under the sole,
and I haven't found any problems from offsetting them like this.

Of the road type pedals/cleats, is it my impression, or the Look
cleats, both Delta and Keo, do not allow such lateral adjustment, as
you describe the SPD-SLs do??

I have not used the newer Look style, but I have seen a friend's.
There seems to be plenty of side to side adjustment.

I use SPD-SL and I have wide size 50 (15US) shoes and I have almost 1cm
of clearance between my shoe and the crankarm. My feet are pretty
straight, so I don't have any real clearance issues. Heels rub the
chainstays when wearing thick booties.

In short, SPD-SL in my experience offers a lot of lateral outward
adjustment for crankarm clearance.

Joseph

In article <[email hidden]>, BigBen

() said:

Of the road type pedals/cleats, is it my impression, or the Look
cleats, both Delta and Keo, do not allow such lateral adjustment, as
you describe the SPD-SLs do??

Look Delta /do/ allow a certain amount of lateral adjustment, but not
very much.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
The onward interchange factor will be unity except for journeys to
Chesham, Croxley or Watford.

BigBen said:

Quoted message said:

There are also spacer washers you can fit on your pedal spindles to
move them further out. See link below.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/georgia06/?id=united_cruz/Tony_Cruz_s_United_pedals

I had already thought about that myself, and was descouraged by the
fear that the decreased insertion into of the pedal into the crank
would comprimise reliability. Apparently not!

Seems the easiest, most "customisable", and even cheaper option to
solve the issue.

Thank you for sharing the experience!

Quoted message said:

Time float is +5 degrees and -5 degrees, 10 degrees total. Look float
is 9 degrees total.

Could you please explain what you mean by +degrees and -degrees?

Total swing is 10 degrees. 10 degrees of the arc of a 360 degree
circle. From the neutral center line, you can swing 5 degrees left and
5 degrees right. The Look float is 9 degrees total. 4.5 degrees left
and 4.5 degrees right from the neutral center line. Not that 1 degree
makes any difference.

Quoted message said:

I've never seen Time road cleats live, but in the pictures I've seen
so far, they seem both slipery, and fragile, if and when you need to
take a few steps off the bike, stop in the middle of traffic, etc.

I use old Time Equipe pedals with the solid brass and aluminum cleats
that lock solidly into the pedals. You CANNOT pull your foot out of
the pedal unexpectedly. They are terrible for walking. Terrible. But
when I ride my bike I ride my bike. When going on rides that will have
walking involved, I use SPD pedals and mountain bike shoes. If you are
using the walkability of bike shoes and cleats as a main determinant of
which pedals to get, you should concentrate on mountain bike pedals and
shoes. If I were looking for new road pedals, walkability would not be
a consideration for me. Nice I'm sure, but not a decision maker.

Quoted message said:

By comparison, I've read that SPD-SL cleats are less slipery than most
others... Does that match anyone's real life experience?

Thank you,
jbr

BigBen said:

On 15 May 2006 22:51:51 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Then there's Knee Savers for the really duck-footed:
http://www.bikescor.com/product/knee.htm

I don't think I need that much extension as 2 cm (although that could
also be trimmed, of course).

Nope. There's no good way to shorten them without weakening them.

Jeff

On 16 May 2006 08:16:56 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Nope. There's no good way to shorten them without weakening them.

OK, I'll bear that in mind, if I consider that option more seriously.

For the time being, I've inserted a washer between the pedal axle and
the crank, which is only about 2 mm thick.

After my next ride, I'll tell you how it works for me.

Thanks,
jbr

On Wed, 17 May 2006 09:43:32 GMT, [email hidden] (BigBen)

Quoted message said:

For the time being, I've inserted a washer between the pedal axle and
the crank, which is only about 2 mm thick.

After my next ride, I'll tell you how it works for me.

It worked rather well, for the 50 km that rode today! I was surprised
by the diference 2 mm can make on your confort.

Besides I got the feeling my feet where less prone to become numb -
before, after a while spining heavy gears, my feet would go numb, then
I'd have to ease up a bit, for recovery, and after that was ready to
push haevy gears again.

Today, I hardly noticed any feet numbness at all ...

Thanks,
jbr

Quoted message said:

Total swing is 10 degrees. 10 degrees of the arc of a 360 degree
circle. From the neutral center line, you can swing 5 degrees left and
5 degrees right. The Look float is 9 degrees total. 4.5 degrees left
and 4.5 degrees right from the neutral center line. Not that 1 degree
makes any difference.

Is it my impression, or the "budget" look pedals have only 6 degrees
of float (with the red cleats)?

Aren't only the models where you have an adjuster in the back of the
pedal that alllow for 9 degrees of float?

Thanks,
jbr