QBP wheels

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:01:54 -0800 (PST), Zruk <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi,
does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value in an
old school wheel.
thanks

Dear Stan,

Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt anything.

You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself in less than
five minutes, including the time to find some heavy gloves. That's
Jobst's method.

Or you can try Sheldon's method--stick a smooth crank arm into the vee
of the crossing spokes and twist 'em:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood, put a
hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating around the
clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic method, which uses
your body weight and seems to produce higher tension:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

Any of these methods may produce small cracking or popping noises as
wound-up spokes untwist or seat, and you may have to re-true the wheel
a little afterward.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 12:01:54 -0800 (PST), Zruk <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi,
does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value in an
old school wheel.
thanks

Dear Stan,

Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt anything.

You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself in less than
five minutes, including the time to find some heavy gloves. That's
Jobst's method.

Or you can try Sheldon's method--stick a smooth crank arm into the vee
of the crossing spokes and twist 'em:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood, put a
hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating around the
clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic method, which uses
your body weight and seems to produce higher tension:
http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

The axle and block of wood method is far superior to anything else.
With factory wheels I always do this, retrue and build up the tension
between 1/2 and 3/4 turn and end up with very stable wheels. Squeezing
or using granny's pasta fork just doesn't pull the spokes hard enough.

Granddaughter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value in
an old school wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt
anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself in less than
five minutes, including the time to find some heavy gloves. That's
Jobst's method.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or you can try Sheldon's method--stick a smooth crank arm into the
vee of the crossing spokes and twist 'em:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood,
put a hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating
around the clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic
method, which uses your body weight and seems to produce higher
tension:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

Quoted message said:

The axle and block of wood method is far superior to anything else.
With factory wheels I always do this, retrue and build up the
tension between 1/2 and 3/4 turn and end up with very stable
wheels. Squeezing or using granny's pasta fork just doesn't pull the
spokes hard enough.

I think you are mistaken in that method. If you put a tensiometer on
the wheel and try both manual spoke stretching and the method you
outline, you'll find they produce similar increases in spoke tension
except that pressing down across the diameter of the wheel deforms it
and puts permanent deformation into the wheel. By manually working
pairs of spokes that overlap each other, there is only a slight radial
deformation with no lateral effect.

You can collapse a wheels laterally without significantly increasing
spoke tension. A pretzeled wheel can often be straightened and
reused. I once met some tourists who had such a wheel and were hoping
to get a ride when I fixed the wheel to near new condition and sent
them on their way. Straightening the wheel required first loosening
all spokes a turn or so before bending the wheel back to plane.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Granddaughter said:

Quoted message said:

> does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
> relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value in
> an old school wheel.
Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt
anything.
You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself in less than
five minutes, including the time to find some heavy gloves. That's
Jobst's method.
Or you can try Sheldon's method--stick a smooth crank arm into the
vee of the crossing spokes and twist 'em:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood,
put a hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating
around the clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic
method, which uses your body weight and seems to produce higher
tension:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

Quoted message said:

The axle and block of wood method is far superior to anything else.
With factory wheels I always do this, retrue and build up the
tension between 1/2 and 3/4 turn and end up with very stable
wheels. Squeezing or using granny's pasta fork just doesn't pull the
spokes hard enough.

I think you are mistaken in that method. If you put a tensiometer on
the wheel and try both manual spoke stretching and the method you
outline, you'll find they produce similar increases in spoke tension
except that pressing down across the diameter of the wheel deforms it
and puts permanent deformation into the wheel. By manually working
pairs of spokes that overlap each other, there is only a slight radial
deformation with no lateral effect.

[censored]. The axle-on-wood method works far better than the squeeze,
which rarely gets the spoke head seated fully in the flange. The
"permanent deformation" claim is also [censored]. You just work the
wheel till you see the spoke heads seat. You're simply lying and being
dogmatic for your ego. How Jobstian!

Granddaughter snipes from cover:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
>> relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value
>> in an old school wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt
> anything. You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself
> in less than five minutes, including the time to find some heavy
> gloves. That's Jobst's method. Or you can try Sheldon's
> method--stick a smooth crank arm into the vee of the crossing
> spokes and twist 'em:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood,
> put a hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating
> around the clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic
> method, which uses your body weight and seems to produce higher
> tension:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The axle and block of wood method is far superior to anything
else. With factory wheels I always do this, retrue and build up
the tension between 1/2 and 3/4 turn and end up with very stable
wheels. Squeezing or using granny's pasta fork just doesn't pull
the spokes hard enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you are mistaken in that method. If you put a tensiometer
on the wheel and try both manual spoke stretching and the method
you outline, you'll find they produce similar increases in spoke
tension except that pressing down across the diameter of the wheel
deforms it and puts permanent deformation into the wheel. By
manually working pairs of spokes that overlap each other, there is
only a slight radial deformation with no lateral effect.

Quoted message said:

[censored]. The axle-on-wood method works far better than the squeeze,
which rarely gets the spoke head seated fully in the flange. The
"permanent deformation" claim is also [censored]. You just work the
wheel till you see the spoke heads seat. You're simply lying and
being dogmatic for your ego. How Jobstian!

How did you determine this? I use a tensiometer, what instrument did
you use? You may be confusing sounds from spokes untwisting as stress
relief, but that is not stress relief. Spokes untwist when they are
momentarily unloaded. This is not an indication of over-tensioning.

Your method unloads spokes admirably, which is another reason not to
use it.

Meanwhile, can you present technical material in a civil tone? Who
are you, by the way? It seems the rudest folks are all anonymous.

Jobst Brandt

Brandt engages in the usual BS:

Quoted message said:

Granddaughter snipes from cover:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, can you present technical material in a civil tone?

Has anyone else's "irony" meter exploded???

Quoted message said:

Who are you, by the way?

WTF difference does it make, Brandt???

Quoted message said:

It seems the rudest folks are all anonymous.

Gee, you're the rudest SOB here, but you're not "anonymous".

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt, [censored]

Ozark Bicycle said:

Brandt engages in the usual BS:

Quoted message said:

Granddaughter snipes from cover:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, can you present technical material in a civil tone?

Has anyone else's "irony" meter exploded???

Quoted message said:

Who are you, by the way?

WTF difference does it make, Brandt???

Quoted message said:

It seems the rudest folks are all anonymous.

Gee, you're the rudest SOB here, but you're not "anonymous".

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt, [censored]

Don't know who is the rudest but the more rudeness, the more fun for
the lurkers. Can we get a shot of Tennessee whiskey to go with this?

Andres

Quoted post said:

On Jan 16, 7:49 pm, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Brandt engages in the usual BS:

Quoted message said:

On Jan 16, 6:19 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Granddaughter snipes from cover:

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Meanwhile, can you present technical material in a civil tone?

Quoted message said:

Has anyone else's "irony" meter exploded???

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who are you, by the way?

Quoted message said:

WTF difference does it make, Brandt???

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It seems the rudest folks are all anonymous.

Quoted message said:

Gee, you're the rudest SOB here, but you're not "anonymous".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt, [censored]

Don't know who is the rudest but the more rudeness, the more fun for
the lurkers. Can we get a shot of Tennessee whiskey to go with this?

Would you settle for some popcorn?

landotter ? said:

...
[censored]. The axle-on-wood method works far better than the squeeze,
which rarely gets the spoke head seated fully in the flange. The
"permanent deformation" claim is also [censored]. You just work the
wheel till you see the spoke heads seat. You're simply lying and being
dogmatic for your ego. How Jobstian!

Excellent "jim beam" imitation!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

aka Jobst Brandt said:

...It seems the rudest folks are all anonymous.

Hey, what about non-anonymous me?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

On Jan 16, 9:49 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

landotter ? wrote:

Excellent Jobst Brandt imitation! Does he let you kiss his ass, or
just his feet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...
[censored]. The axle-on-wood method works far better than the squeeze,
which rarely gets the spoke head seated fully in the flange. The
"permanent deformation" claim is also [censored]. You just work the
wheel till you see the spoke heads seat. You're simply lying and being
dogmatic for your ego. How Jobstian!

Quoted message said:

Excellent "jim beam" imitation!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Ozark Bicycle aka Richard who? said:

On Jan 16, 9:49 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

landotter ? wrote:

Excellent Jobst Brandt imitation! Does he let you kiss his ass, or
just his feet?

Jobst happens to be correct about anonymous posters.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

...It seems the rudest folks are all anonymous.

Quoted message said:

Hey, what about non-anonymous me?

You probably fit the description to the anonymous posters who believe
that scatology, sexual innuendo and any other crude name calling is
OK, while disagreeing with their beliefs is the height of rudeness. I
would like to see where I called someone rude names in what I wrote.
I'm sure that some of these guys are Googling hard to find one. I
suspect it's their way of trolling for a response in kind.

Jobst Brandt

On Jan 16, 9:59 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle aka Richard who? wrote:> On Jan 16, 9:49 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

landotter ? wrote:

Quoted message said:

Excellent Jobst Brandt imitation! Does he let you kiss his ass, or
just his feet?

Quoted message said:

Jobst happens to be correct about anonymous posters.

And jim beam "happens to be correct" about Jobst Brandt.

On Jan 16, 9:59 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle aka Richard who? wrote:> On Jan 16, 9:49 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

landotter ? wrote:

Quoted message said:

Excellent Jobst Brandt imitation! Does he let you kiss his ass, or
just his feet?

Quoted message said:

Jobst happens to be correct about anonymous posters.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth

"landotter" is sharpied quite clearly here in the neck of my Ralph
Reed Underoos.

Glory!

<slug of Heaven Hill>

Hallelujah!

landotter said:

On Jan 16, 9:59 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle aka Richard who? wrote:> On Jan 16, 9:49 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

wrote:
> landotter ? wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Excellent Jobst Brandt imitation! Does he let you kiss his ass, or
just his feet?

Quoted message said:

Jobst happens to be correct about anonymous posters.

Quoted message said:

"landotter" is sharpied quite clearly here in the neck of my Ralph
Reed Underoos.

Don't you know better than to disagree with The Great Man whilst clad
in underwear? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Glory!

<slug of Heaven Hill>

Hallelujah!

Pass the Heaven Hill and lean on a rim!

Ozark Bicycle said:

landotter said:

On Jan 16, 9:59 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle aka Richard who? wrote:> On Jan 16, 9:49 pm, Tom Sherman <[email hidden]>
> wrote:
>> landotter ? wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Excellent Jobst Brandt imitation! Does he let you kiss his ass, or
> just his feet?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst happens to be correct about anonymous posters.

Quoted message said:

"landotter" is sharpied quite clearly here in the neck of my Ralph
Reed Underoos.

Don't you know better than to disagree with The Great Man whilst clad
in underwear? ;-)

Quoted message said:

Glory!

Quoted message said:

<slug of Heaven Hill>

Quoted message said:

Hallelujah!

Pass the Heaven Hill and lean on a rim!

Hey now, that there sounds like some of them hybrid country *and*
western lyrics!

landotter said:

Quoted message said:

Granddaughter said:

>> does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
>> relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value in
>> an old school wheel.
> Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt
> anything.
> You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself in less than
> five minutes, including the time to find some heavy gloves. That's
> Jobst's method.
> Or you can try Sheldon's method--stick a smooth crank arm into the
> vee of the crossing spokes and twist 'em:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Quoted message said:

> Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood,
> put a hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating
> around the clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic
> method, which uses your body weight and seems to produce higher
> tension:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

Quoted message said:

The axle and block of wood method is far superior to anything else.
With factory wheels I always do this, retrue and build up the
tension between 1/2 and 3/4 turn and end up with very stable
wheels. Squeezing or using granny's pasta fork just doesn't pull the
spokes hard enough.

I think you are mistaken in that method. If you put a tensiometer on
the wheel and try both manual spoke stretching and the method you
outline, you'll find they produce similar increases in spoke tension
except that pressing down across the diameter of the wheel deforms it
and puts permanent deformation into the wheel. By manually working
pairs of spokes that overlap each other, there is only a slight radial
deformation with no lateral effect.

[censored]. The axle-on-wood method works far better than the squeeze,
which rarely gets the spoke head seated fully in the flange. The
"permanent deformation" claim is also [censored]. You just work the
wheel till you see the spoke heads seat. You're simply lying and being
dogmatic for your ego. How Jobstian!

It's not the increase in tension that makes the "axle on wood" method
superior. It's the decrease in tension on the under side of the wheel.
What you're essentially doing is simulating the unloading of spokes that
naturally occurs when you ride on a wheel.

On the road, as each spoke comes to the point normal to the plane of the
ground, the rim is ever so slightly deformed to unload the tension on
the spoke. Without that tension, the static friction force in the
threads that is holding the spoke against unwinding (and you have to
have spokes with wind-up in them for this to matter) is reduced, and the
spoke twists in the nipple to relieve the wind-up. This is why you hear
the "pinging" sounds if you ride on an unrelieved wheel.

There's a good discussion of this in Barnett's Manual, Volume 2, page
17-24. There's also a discussion of spoke squeezing on page 16-42 that
basically says the reason for squeezing is not to relieve spoke wind-up,
but to prevent spokes from breaking due to fatigue by introducing a
slight bend in the spokes where they cross. For this purpose, I expect
that Sheldon's method is superior.

A consequence of this latter contention is that it would do no good at
all to squeeze spokes on a radial lacing or on a wheel like the recent
Shimano rear wheels, that don't actually have the crossing spokes
touching each other.

Jobst's remark about putting a permanent deformation in the rim is total
[censored]. Doesn't happen, unless you push hard enough to taco the wheel.

Mike Johnson

Michael Johnson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> does anyone know for a fact whether the QBP wheels are stress
>>> relieved? I asked Sheldon but he is not sure. Looking for value in
>>> an old school wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Whether it works or not, doing it again yourself won't hurt
>> anything. You can squeeze all the spoke pairs together yourself
>> in less than five minutes, including the time to find some heavy
>> gloves. That's Jobst's method. Or you can try Sheldon's
>> method--stick a smooth crank arm into the vee of the crossing
>> spokes and twist 'em:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Or you can take the wheels off, set the axle on a block of wood,
>> put a hand on either side of the rim, and lean on it, repeating
>> around the clock and then on the other side. That's the Mavic
>> method, which uses your body weight and seems to produce higher
>> tension:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/SpokeTension.pdf

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The axle and block of wood method is far superior to anything
> else. With factory wheels I always do this, retrue and build up
> the tension between 1/2 and 3/4 turn and end up with very stable
> wheels. Squeezing or using granny's pasta fork just doesn't pull
> the spokes hard enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you are mistaken in that method. If you put a tensiometer
on the wheel and try both manual spoke stretching and the method
you outline, you'll find they produce similar increases in spoke
tension except that pressing down across the diameter of the wheel
deforms it and puts permanent deformation into the wheel. By
manually working pairs of spokes that overlap each other, there is
only a slight radial deformation with no lateral effect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[censored]. The axle-on-wood method works far better than the
squeeze, which rarely gets the spoke head seated fully in the
flange. The "permanent deformation" claim is also [censored]. You
just work the wheel till you see the spoke heads seat. You're
simply lying and being dogmatic for your ego. How Jobstian!

Quoted message said:

It's not the increase in tension that makes the "axle on wood"
method superior. It's the decrease in tension on the under side of
the wheel. What you're essentially doing is simulating the
unloading of spokes that naturally occurs when you ride on a wheel.

Quoted message said:

On the road, as each spoke comes to the point normal to the plane of
the ground, the rim is ever so slightly deformed to unload the
tension on the spoke. Without that tension, the static friction
force in the threads that is holding the spoke against unwinding
(and you have to have spokes with wind-up in them for this to
matter) is reduced, and the spoke twists in the nipple to relieve
the wind-up. This is why you hear the "pinging" sounds if you ride
on an unrelieved wheel.

Quoted message said:

There's a good discussion of this in Barnett's Manual, Volume 2,
page 17-24. There's also a discussion of spoke squeezing on page
16-42 that basically says the reason for squeezing is not to relieve
spoke wind-up, but to prevent spokes from breaking due to fatigue by
introducing a slight bend in the spokes where they cross. For this
purpose, I expect that Sheldon's method is superior.

Quoted message said:

A consequence of this latter contention is that it would do no good
at all to squeeze spokes on a radial lacing or on a wheel like the
recent Shimano rear wheels, that don't actually have the crossing
spokes touching each other.

If you choose to cite Barnett, how about citing "the Bicycle Wheel"
where the reason for stretching spokes is explained. It is not for
shaping spoke crossings (a place where spokes practically never fail)
but rather to relieve residual stress in spoke elbows and threads, the
cause of spoke failures in use.

Quoted message said:

Jobst's remark about putting a permanent deformation in the rim is
total [censored]. Doesn't happen, unless you push hard enough to taco the
wheel.

I think you'll see that a wheel bent as described will no longer be
true in a classic taco shape although not greatly so. What is more
telling is that a tensiometer will show that this method has no
advantage over manual spoke stretching, a method that does not bend
the wheel.

Jobst Brandt