Quana: I Told You So!

[Carrera]

That's where you're wrong. The Bloggers aren't stating Qana was faked and you are jumping the gun, which kind of makes me out to be a cold-blooded swine which I'm not.
The bombing at Qana evidently happened. What's being disputed is how it came to pass that there was a considerable time gap between the collapse of the building and the Israeli raids.
What's being suggested is that the building had indeed been used to store weapons, explosives and maybe rockets and something then ignited.
Above all, what has now come to light is that photos are being faked and staged on occasions although that's not to deny the reality civilians are being killed when mistakes happen.
Bloggers have detected irregularities and they now have more right than ever to be taken seriously since, if it had not been for them, many sensitive, anti-war protesters would have been further manipulated by Reuters.
However many excuses you make and however unpopular it might be to ask difficult questions, this photographer (who was present) at Qana has been caught cloning and faking photos which is about as low as anyone can sink. More fake photos are coming to light and this scandal is not going to simply go away.
Yet the only guilty party is me apparently despite the fact I haven't cloned or doctored any text or image to prove my own case (nor deleted counter-arguments when the going gets tough).

The photos he is accused of modifying didn't actually relate to Qana at all, and the "touch up" work he did not misrepresent the subject matter either. The buildings are still burning, they are still in ruins...



Let me remind you of the outrageous claim you are making here : You are claiming that Qana was faked. In that context making the smoke blacker over a building in Lebanon is pushing a point of view over Qana. This is another example of "attack the person, not the evidence".

Furthermore you still haven't addressed the other more significant points that I made, allow me to remind you because your bigotry makes you very hard of understanding :



You have no evidence for your ioutrageous claim whatsoever. You owe the people of Qana an apology.

 

[Carrera]

Where we differ is pretty simple: Your view is Israel knowingly and deliberately targets women and children. I say they don't.
My view is that would be totally self-defeating and illogical since Israel states it needs time to clear Hezbollah rockets out. The last thing it needs is diplomatic pressure building over civilian deaths.
Rockets are being fired into Israel from urban centres close to schools and hospitals. Terrorists are hiding in populated areas, knowing each missed air-strike will turn public opinion against Israel in Europe and bring huge waves of public anger with it.
The truth is, it's virtually impossible to combat tactics where human shields are being employed and I think only the U.S. army knows how the ground lies. U.S. marines have been fired at from mosques so they can be filmed returning fire and then the pics sent off to Arab T.V. to help the propaganda war. So, they have some idea.
It's gutter tactics based on cowardice. The people cloning those images have no conscience or limits to how far they sink.
The bloggers are right to out the fake pics and, as I say, far more evidence is about to come out.

Oddly enough I did see that photo and I thought that it looked like it was dropping IR decoys to me.

The kids still got bombed at Qana.

 

[Carrera]

The man in the photo below appears in several Qana images but at different times. He is seen everywhere - always holding up victims to the cameras. The key point is the pocket radio that's missing in some shots and his orange jacket switches from left to right.
A blogger writes:
"Whatever else, the event in Qana was a human tragedy. But the photographs do not show it honestly. Rather, they have been staged for effect, exploiting the victims in an unwholesome manner. In so doing, they are no longer news photographs - they are propaganda. And, whoever said the camera cannot lie forgot that photographers can and do. Those lies have spread throughout the world by now and will be in this morning's newspapers, accepted as real by the millions who view them."
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

 

[darkboong]

The bombing at Qana evidently happened.

... And the pathologists reported that the victims died from the blast of the Mk.84 bomb.

"The MK-84 is a free-fall, nonguided GP 2,000-pound bomb. The MK 80 series Low Drag General Purpose (LDGP) bombs are used in the majority of bombing operations where maximum blast and explosive effects are desired."

"This [blast] effect is most desirable for attacking walls, collapsing roofs, and destroying or damaging machinery. The effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 pound bomb)"

The impact crater was within 10m of the building.

What's being disputed is how it came to pass that there was a considerable time gap between the collapse of the building and the Israeli raids.

1) The IDF made that claim, no one else involved supports it.
2) The Mk84 bomb can be fitted with a time delay fuse. This track is often been used to kill relief workers and UXO disposal teams. Some credence is lent to this point by the fact that the IDF gave clearance to the Qana relief team and repeatedly attacked it (I quoted the relevent source some time ago - you ignored it because it doesn't fit in with your conspiracy theories).
3) The building may just have collapsed by itself, it can happen when a building takes massive structural damage (eg : WTC 9/11).
4) There are ZERO reports of secondary blasts to the building.
5) There are numerous (independent) reports that there was NO EVIDENCE OF ANY WEAPONRY IN OR AROUND THE BUILDING.

What's being suggested is that the building had indeed been used to store weapons, explosives and maybe rockets and something then ignited.

If that is the case then there would be evidence of a secondary explosion, a number of sources have categorically stated that there was none.

Above all, what has now come to light is that photos are being faked and staged on occasions although that's not to deny the reality civilians are being killed when mistakes happen.

They selected the target, they bombed it, knowing civillians were inside, they killed them (they originally insisted that Hezbollah militants were in the building, they made no mention of weaponry). There was no mistake made, they aimed, they shot, they killed.

Bloggers have detected irregularities and they now have more right than ever to be taken seriously since, if it had not been for them, many sensitive, anti-war protesters would have been further manipulated by Reuters.

I can't say that the picture of blacker than normal smoke made any impression on me whatsoever. Same goes for the same picture on different days trick. That's a common one, you saw it a lot from the embedded reporting in Iraq, but I didn't hear a squeak out of you about it.

However many excuses you make and however unpopular it might be to ask difficult questions, this photographer (who was present) at Qana has been caught cloning and faking photos which is about as low as anyone can sink.

He is one of many reporters. There is no evidence that he faked any of the photos from Qana, and even if there were there was plenty of video footage, UNIFIL reports, Red Cross/Red Crescent AND Journalist reports that confirmed the carnage wrought there. Furthermore NONE of them supported your IDF version of events at Qana.

You can play this up as much as you like, but your claim that Qana didn't happen is utterly dispicable and completely unwarranted. You still owe an apology.

 

[Carrera]

Which pathologists? American or Israeli pathologists? U.N. pathologists?
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188571.php
The IDF clarified precisely when and at what time the immediate area was bombed. F16 footage shows missiles being fired from the area. The civilians were warned by the IDF to leave what was classed as a battle zone, on account of the rockets being fired from that region.
Admittedly, there have been major problems getting the civilians out of the conflict zone.

"There are numerous (independent) reports that there was NO EVIDENCE OF ANY WEAPONRY IN OR AROUND THE BUILDING."

Whose reports? The guy who took the photos for Reuters maybe?
The fact is, we don't know yet precisely what happened but the bloggers do seem to be on to something. Several photos have now been exposed as fake.

"Ben Wedeman of CNN (!) reported already on July 30th, the day of the incident and BEFORE the Israeli spokesman reported it, that the building was hit by the Israeli air force shortly after midnight.
The NY Times reported on the 31st: "But the house appeared to have been hit from above, and residents said the walls and ceiling came down around them immediately after the first bomb."
Sabrine Tavernise - NYTimes
However - the NY Times also showed this picture:
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2006/07/30/world/20060730_QANA_SLIDESHOW_7.html
Note that the ceiling is completely intact. Note also the rigor mortis evident in the woman's hands, and the position that she is in. Oh, and the fact that the men were virtually unscathed and that the dead were nearly all women and children. That is not consistent with them having died when the building was originally hit at midnight."

Posted by: jane doe at August 1, 2006


Posted by: jane doe at August 1, 2006 04:11 AM

... And the pathologists reported that the victims died from the blast of the Mk.84 bomb.

"The MK-84 is a free-fall, nonguided GP 2,000-pound bomb. The MK 80 series Low Drag General Purpose (LDGP) bombs are used in the majority of bombing operations where maximum blast and explosive effects are desired."

"This [blast] effect is most desirable for attacking walls, collapsing roofs, and destroying or damaging machinery. The effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 pound bomb)"

The impact crater was within 10m of the building.



1) The IDF made that claim, no one else involved supports it.
2) The Mk84 bomb can be fitted with a time delay fuse. This track is often been used to kill relief workers and UXO disposal teams. Some credence is lent to this point by the fact that the IDF gave clearance to the Qana relief team and repeatedly attacked it (I quoted the relevent source some time ago - you ignored it because it doesn't fit in with your conspiracy theories).
3) The building may just have collapsed by itself, it can happen when a building takes massive structural damage (eg : WTC 9/11).
4) There are ZERO reports of secondary blasts to the building.
5) There are numerous (independent) reports that there was NO EVIDENCE OF ANY WEAPONRY IN OR AROUND THE BUILDING.



If that is the case then there would be evidence of a secondary explosion, a number of sources have categorically stated that there was none.



They selected the target, they bombed it, knowing civillians were inside, they killed them (they originally insisted that Hezbollah militants were in the building, they made no mention of weaponry). There was no mistake made, they aimed, they shot, they killed.



I can't say that the picture of blacker than normal smoke made any impression on me whatsoever. Same goes for the same picture on different days trick. That's a common one, you saw it a lot from the embedded reporting in Iraq, but I didn't hear a squeak out of you about it.



He is one of many reporters. There is no evidence that he faked any of the photos from Qana, and even if there were there was plenty of video footage, UNIFIL reports, Red Cross/Red Crescent AND Journalist reports that confirmed the carnage wrought there. Furthermore NONE of them supported your IDF version of events at Qana.

You can play this up as much as you like, but your claim that Qana didn't happen is utterly dispicable and completely unwarranted. You still owe an apology.

 

[Carrera]

"You do what you have to do to protect your country, and if that means sending troops in to get rid of the rockets that are targeting your civilians, then that's what you do. Israel is bending over backwards not to target those children, while Hezbollah is doing the exact opposite. The person who mentioned the ball-bearings packed inside Hezbollah rockets to cause maximum injuries (another point immediately ignored, I noticed) made that clear before I could.

I think what happened at Qana could very well be at least partly staged. If you haven't seen the "Pallywood" film http://www.seconddraft.org/movies.php , it's worth checking out, even if only to be skeptical. But it doesn't matter. Like the civilian deaths at the beach in Gaza, which was proven to be caused by ordnance and not Israeli shelling, and possibly even explosives planted by Hamas itself, the record will always be passed on that it was caused "by Israeli shelling." Israel was judged on the strength of the photographs of the girl crying and the official Palestinian reports complete with doctored film footage, and that film footage is still making the rounds today. Many people still refer to the "massacre" in Jenin. So it goes.
So we can argue this and point it out, and like some people here have noted, until Israel makes an official statement, no one will believe it. But even when Israel does make an official statement, what will it matter? Then it will be "The Zionists not taking responsibility for their massacres" or some such garbage. "

 

[Carrera]

If you have an appetite for digging up accounts of war-crimes, try the following which is so graphic, I've had to censor some parts.
See if you can find any accounts of the IDF behaving in the same way as these so-called "Islamic warriors":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis
"On day two, many of the young children started to succumb to the effects of neglect after having being denied any form of food and water and often forced to stand up for long periods in the tightly packed and hot gym. Many fainted, the parents started to fear they would start to die. Occasionally the terrorists took out some of the unconscious children, and poured water on their heads before returning them to the gym. Some resorted to drinking their own urine and eating plants and the bouquets they had brought on their first school day. One boy said he found a bottle of vodka in one of the bomber's bags, which he shared with other children because they had nothing else to drink. Another boy was run through with a bayonet, after he asked one of the terrorists for some water. Later in the day, women and men also stared to faint from fatigue and thirst. When the bombs started to go off, many of the surviving children were so fatigued they were barely able to flee away from carnage[7][8][9].
Many children took off their clothing because of the sweltering heat within the gymnasium — which led to rumors of sexual impropriety, though the hostages later explained it was merely due to the stifling heat and being denied any water. However sexual impropriety allegedly did take place in the form of rape of several of the young children and adolescent girls, whose cries and screams according to some survivors could be heard echo through the school[10]. Surviving hostage Kazbek Dzarasov reports that the terrorists would pick from amongst the prettiest adolescent girls and take them to another room with an excuse of having them fetch water, rape them and return them a few hours later[11].
In the afternoon, the gunmen agreed to release 26 nursing women and their infants following their negotiations with former Ingush President Ruslan Aushev, to whom they handed off a nursing infant whose mother refused to leave the school because of her other children [12]. About a dozen of those mothers released were allowed by the terrorists to take only one child and forced to leave behind other children (a number of which were killed)[

... And the pathologists reported that the victims died from the blast of the Mk.84 bomb.

"The MK-84 is a free-fall, nonguided GP 2,000-pound bomb. The MK 80 series Low Drag General Purpose (LDGP) bombs are used in the majority of bombing operations where maximum blast and explosive effects are desired."

"This [blast] effect is most desirable for attacking walls, collapsing roofs, and destroying or damaging machinery. The effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 pound bomb)"

The impact crater was within 10m of the building.



1) The IDF made that claim, no one else involved supports it.
2) The Mk84 bomb can be fitted with a time delay fuse. This track is often been used to kill relief workers and UXO disposal teams. Some credence is lent to this point by the fact that the IDF gave clearance to the Qana relief team and repeatedly attacked it (I quoted the relevent source some time ago - you ignored it because it doesn't fit in with your conspiracy theories).
3) The building may just have collapsed by itself, it can happen when a building takes massive structural damage (eg : WTC 9/11).
4) There are ZERO reports of secondary blasts to the building.
5) There are numerous (independent) reports that there was NO EVIDENCE OF ANY WEAPONRY IN OR AROUND THE BUILDING.



If that is the case then there would be evidence of a secondary explosion, a number of sources have categorically stated that there was none.



They selected the target, they bombed it, knowing civillians were inside, they killed them (they originally insisted that Hezbollah militants were in the building, they made no mention of weaponry). There was no mistake made, they aimed, they shot, they killed.



I can't say that the picture of blacker than normal smoke made any impression on me whatsoever. Same goes for the same picture on different days trick. That's a common one, you saw it a lot from the embedded reporting in Iraq, but I didn't hear a squeak out of you about it.



He is one of many reporters. There is no evidence that he faked any of the photos from Qana, and even if there were there was plenty of video footage, UNIFIL reports, Red Cross/Red Crescent AND Journalist reports that confirmed the carnage wrought there. Furthermore NONE of them supported your IDF version of events at Qana.

You can play this up as much as you like, but your claim that Qana didn't happen is utterly dispicable and completely unwarranted. You still owe an apology.

 

[limerickman]

All I can say is that, thus far, London has had one terrorist attack in the metro while about 4 other attacks have been foiled.

Can you provide us with evidence - of the foiled attacks?

The security services cannot provide said evidence.

 

[limerickman]

The truth is slowly starting to filter out. The bloggers who claimed Quana was partly a propaganda set up by Islamic terrorists and that the photos and images had been doctored are now being taken far more seriously, as is Melanie Phillips who first quoted 2 U.S. bloggers recently on that matter..

Isn't Phillips a Jew?

 

[limerickman]

Bloggers worldwide are continuing to discover irregularities.
Rusty Shackleford discovers "Another fake Reuters photo from Lebanon." Rusty writes that "What is a passed as a photo showing an Israeli bombing raid against a 'village' is actually of an F-16 taking defensive measures." And reader Robert Opalecky writes:

"I don't know if this has been brought to anyone's attention yet, but in a quick search of the authenticated Reuters photographs attributed to Adnan Hajj, I found the following two.

One is from July 24 of a bombed out area in Beirut, with a clearly identifiable building in a prominent part of the shot. The second is of the exact same area, same buildings, same condition, with a woman walking past "a building flattened during an overnight Israeli air raid on Beirut's suburbs August 5, 2006."
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/014919.php

Citing information posted from another chatroom is disingenuous.

Carerra : I suggest that you don't cite information from unsubstantiated sources as you have done above.
Otherwise, that information could well be deemed to be fraudulent and misleading.

 

[Carrera]

I work for the Security Services.

Can you provide us with evidence - of the foiled attacks?

The security services cannot provide said evidence.

 

[darkboong]

Which pathologists? American or Israeli pathologists? U.N. pathologists?

Lebanese, backed by UN. There is no conspiracy to fake the victims Crappy.

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188571.php
The IDF clarified precisely when and at what time the immediate area was bombed.

You take the word of the murderers at face value ?

F16 footage shows missiles being fired from the area.

The footage showed an olive grove, the building that was bombed was in the middle of a built up area. Dan Gillerman said that the footage was not in fact of Qana.

The civilians were warned by the IDF to leave what was classed as a battle zone, on account of the rockets being fired from that region.

There is no evidence that rockets were fired near that house or that rockets were stored within that house. The IDF have not provided any evidence, the people on the ground found no evidence (again half a dozen independent sources).

Admittedly, there have been major problems getting the civilians out of the conflict zone.

The big one being that the IDF bombs the **** out of anyone leaving the areas it has leafleted. The IDF doesn't always leaflet either.

"There are numerous (independent) reports that there was NO EVIDENCE OF ANY WEAPONRY IN OR AROUND THE BUILDING."

Whose reports? The guy who took the photos for Reuters maybe?

I listed them, you ignored the post. The Reuters photographer was not among them.

The fact is, we don't know yet precisely what happened but the bloggers do seem to be on to something. Several photos have now been exposed as fake.

So far you haven't presented one bit of credible evidence to support your revolting conspiracy theory about Qana. Not to mention the fact that Qana is not a one off, this has happened to 1000 Lebanese civillians.

That is not consistent with them having died when the building was originally hit at midnight."[/B]

********. I'll take the word of the Pathologists and people on the scene before an Armchair Quarterback's 10,000 mile distant opinion.

 

[darkboong]

"
But it doesn't matter. Like the civilian deaths at the beach in Gaza, which was proven to be caused by ordnance and not Israeli shelling, and possibly even explosives planted by Hamas itself, the record will always be passed on that it was caused "by Israeli shelling."

Quite correctly too.

The IDF admitted that it had launched five 155mm shells within 250 yards of the victims. I pointed out to you that the margin of error with one of those 155mm rounds is 370m. The kill zone is 50m. The sole "physical" proof that the IDF offered was a piece of shrapnel in a kid. Yet the man on the scene actually picked up a chunk of (still warm) 155mm shell casing from the nearby the impact crater.

It is no coincidence that these accidents always happen to the IDF when they fire indiscriminate weapons at unarmored civillians. It gets pretty sickening to hear them complaining that it's always someone else's fault too.

So we can argue this and point it out, and like some people here have noted, until Israel makes an official statement, no one will believe it.

With good reason. Remember the IDF footage of ambulances being used to move rockets around ? Remember how they came up with that film after shooting up a few ambulances ? Remember how it was shown to be utter bollocks, and that the Ambulances were in fact being loaded with stretchers ?

 

[Carrera]

It's difficult for me to demonstrate where your argument has gone astray on account of my posts being deleted.
The evidence for photo faking and staging of massacres is well-known and nothing new.

"The images we have seen are completely controlled by Hezbollah, so you can put whatever stock in that you wish. The EU photos and others of "Green Helmet" that have been dug up show this guy all over Lebanon - same guy, same outfit, in areas miles and miles from each other in a matter of hours. How does that work?
Now - obviously some children have been killed. The pictures I have see do not show 50+ bodies. More like half a dozen. But again, with Hezbollah controlling we only get to see what they show us. Killing of innocents is wrong. But - I have yet to see all of the "Israel is evil" crowd that has been posting here actually defend Hezbollah's insistence in hiding behind women and children, firing rockets from civilian areas. I have not seen them defend the years of Hamas, Palestinian, and Hezbollah terror attacks on Israel that killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent men, women, and children. All I see is "terrorist apologists" making up excuses as to why Hezbollah is a great, humanitarial, and wholly moral group that was unfairly attacked by Israel. What say you?"

 

[Carrera]

Are posts going to be banned on the basis of statements that security services have prevented a number of terrorist incidents the public knew little about?
Why on earth is it supposedly against the soapbox rules to express the view terrorist plots in the U.K. are actively being plotted and that security personnel try to prevent them?
To my mind it would help everybody is you had a discussion with the site administration and then post us all a specific list of what the rules actually are. Then at least we all know where we stand.
As things stand, posts are either removed or mysteriously disappear simply because they don't reflect your particular view which is what evidently got up Colorado Rider's nose - and many others.
Incidentally, have you see the news today and when, if ever, are you going to apologise for your assumption I don't know what I'm talking about?

Can you provide us with evidence - of the foiled attacks?

The security services cannot provide said evidence.

 

[darkboong]

I work for the Security Services.

Nah, you work for the Insecurity Services.

Dr Bishara says the current "nationalistic" climate in Israel means that it is impossible to oppose the war without being denounced as a "fifth columnist".

He has accused the Israeli government of providing no bomb shelters for the Arab population and using them as "human shields" by placing artillery units beside Israeli Arab villages in the north.

 

[darkboong]

It's difficult for me to demonstrate where your argument has gone astray on account of my posts being deleted.

The real reason is because my argument stands and you are firmly in the wrong. It is a direct consequence of reality smacking you hard in the face I am afraid.

The evidence for photo faking and staging of massacres is well-known and nothing new.

I am not aware of any such evidence. If you can provide some, do. So far all you have done is talking about F-16s and pictures of women in front of rubble.

"The images we have seen are completely controlled by Hezbollah, so you can put whatever stock in that you wish."

I am not going to the word of an unnamed blogger on trust. Provide evidence to back up that claim. I can find more evidence that the IDF is censoring the media than you have presented to support your Green Helmet Conspiracy Theory.

 

[2FAST4U]

Are posts going to be banned on the basis of statements that security services have prevented a number of terrorist incidents the public knew little about?
Why on earth is it supposedly against the soapbox rules to express the view terrorist plots in the U.K. are actively being plotted and that security personnel try to prevent them?
To my mind it would help everybody is you had a discussion with the site administration and then post us all a specific list of what the rules actually are. Then at least we all know where we stand.
As things stand, posts are either removed or mysteriously disappear simply because they don't reflect your particular view which is what evidently got up Colorado Rider's nose - and many others.
Incidentally, have you see the news today and when, if ever, are you going to apologise for your assumption I don't know what I'm talking about?

Carrera...I think your opponents should check the news today....Hey what's up with the dude from Colorado? Is he still here?

 

[Carrera]

Your argument gets more shaky by the day, I'm afraid.
Myself, Melanie Phillips and a few more so-called "doom-mongers" have warned repeatedly that the U.K. has allowed extremist, Jihadist organizations to become established, especially in London and Birmingham. Every time, we're hissed at and sniggered at, even on BBC political-debates.
Every time, of course, we turn the same circle round, with you stating there is no terrorist threat to the U.K. or coming from the U.K. and yet time and time again we see who is right and who is wrong - and it ain't Melanie Phillips.
I recall you saying before the 7/7 attacks there would never be a terrorist attack in this country. After the attack took place, you said it was the IRA. What's the excuse this time going to be this time, I wonder. Ooops, don't tell me. Jews were behind the latest plot. Or maybe it has something to do with the anti-foxhunting brigade.

The real reason is because my argument stands and you are firmly in the wrong. It is a direct consequence of reality smacking you hard in the face I am afraid.



I am not aware of any such evidence. If you can provide some, do. So far all you have done is talking about F-16s and pictures of women in front of rubble.



I am not going to the word of an unnamed blogger on trust. Provide evidence to back up that claim. I can find more evidence that the IDF is censoring the media than you have presented to support your Green Helmet Conspiracy Theory.

 

[Carrera]

I suspect Colorado Rider left although it's hard to say - maybe he's lurking or posting on a different part of the forum.
I'll bet he's a pretty good cyclist as Colorado is a pretty good place to ride a bike. Likewise, I can't quite recall the name of that famous American climber who won King Of The Mountains but I think his team trained in Colorado. I think it was the 7/11 team but I can't place the name of the cyclist who led them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"But the Colorado rocky mountain high
I've seen it rainin fire in the sky
The shadow from the starlight is softer than a lullabye
Rocky mountain high (high colorado) rocky mountain high (high colorado)" (John Denver)

Carrera...I think your opponents should check the news today....Hey what's up with the dude from Colorado? Is he still here?