Question regarding Lactate Treshold vs. Anaerobic Treshold

[lyot]

hello,

I'm trying to get myself informed on all this.. more specificly, i wanna know about the difference between these two 'terms'. I've read on the forum that Anaerobic Treshold is a 'misnomer'.. What actually is mean with that. As I understood it, Anaerboic Treshold (AT) is the maximum intensity at which there is still balance between lactate production and elimination.

But what is Lactate Treshold then ? According to the definition posted by Ric here is the workload that elicits a 1 mmol/L increase lactate over exercise baseline level (i.e., ~2.x mmol/L) or the workload that elicits a lactate of 2.5 mmol/L. Workload is measured in power (Watts - W) in cycling or velocity (m/s or km/hr) in running.

I'm a bit puzzled by the statement that LT equals the workload that elicits a 2,5 mmol/L lactate. When I did a VO2max test, I reached 2,5mmol with 230 Watt output.. At 4mmol, i pushed 280watt and my maximum was 380Watt.

According to my fysicist , my AT was at that stage situated at 305 Watt..

Should I forget about AT ?

I would love to train according to Power, but I do not have the means (financial)

 

[Orange Fish]

hello,

I'm trying to get myself informed on all this.. more specificly, i wanna know about the difference between these two 'terms'. I've read on the forum that Anaerobic Treshold is a 'misnomer'.. What actually is mean with that. As I understood it, Anaerboic Treshold (AT) is the maximum intensity at which there is still balance between lactate production and elimination.

But what is Lactate Treshold then ? According to the definition posted by Ric here is the workload that elicits a 1 mmol/L increase lactate over exercise baseline level (i.e., ~2.x mmol/L) or the workload that elicits a lactate of 2.5 mmol/L. Workload is measured in power (Watts - W) in cycling or velocity (m/s or km/hr) in running.

I'm a bit puzzled by the statement that LT equals the workload that elicits a 2,5 mmol/L lactate. When I did a VO2max test, I reached 2,5mmol with 230 Watt output.. At 4mmol, i pushed 280watt and my maximum was 380Watt.

According to my fysicist , my AT was at that stage situated at 305 Watt..

Should I forget about AT ?

I would love to train according to Power, but I do not have the means (financial)

Those two terms are very confusing, and often the AT is regarded as a misnomer because if we think of having an actual point at which we become "anaerobic," it leads people to think that everything up to that point is aerobic and everything after that point is anaerobic, which is incorrect. In reality, we're always using both aerobic and anaerobic metabolic pathways to produce energy, but intensity will dictate how much of each we will use.

So focusing on LT is a better way to play. Lactate threshold can be defined the way Ric described, and there are also a few other methods to find it in lab test results. According to Ric's definitions - 1 mmol increase over baseline or workload that elicits 2.5 mmol - it may seem like that is easy to reach without much work (i.e. 230 watts in your case and according to the definition), but actually it's probably right on. Many well-trained endurance athletes will show a very small elevation from baseline for a couple of stages in a LT test. The curve will appear to be curvilinear where it will be flat during the first couple of increasing stages and will then "break" upward at some point. Athletes who may not be as trained, or those who may be less aerobically trained will reach that break point earlier and the lactate curve will appear more linear.
Although 230 watts isn't bad for most recreational/age-group racers. You really should plot the data or look at the lactate curve to determine where the LT is. If the person who did the test on you used only a 1 mmol above baseline or 2.5 mmol point to determine where your LT is, then I would ask him for the raw data so you could have someone else look at it. You cannot only go by the definitions of LT because everyone is different. While your LT may be close to the workload you achieved at 2.5 mmol, if you examine the raw data, you may find that your LT is actually at a workload that elicited 2.8 or 2.9 mmol, and this will be a slightly higher workload. While the definitions are good, they cannot be relied on solely.

So to answer your question about AT, yes, I would forget about AT. Just don't get too caught up in all of these numbers, terms, and definitions. You know what race pace feels like, and you know what an easy ride feels like. If you don't have the means to train by power, there are other ways around it where you can still get good workouts in. If you have a coach, he can tell you when you should go easier and when you should have a hard workout.

Check out this link to see the curve that I'm talking about.

 

[dhk]

Interesting stuff on that link...thanks for the info.

 

[lyot]

Those two terms are very confusing, and often the AT is regarded as a misnomer because if we think of having an actual point at which we become "anaerobic," it leads people to think that everything up to that point is aerobic and everything after that point is anaerobic, which is incorrect. In reality, we're always using both aerobic and anaerobic metabolic pathways to produce energy, but intensity will dictate how much of each we will use.

So focusing on LT is a better way to play. Lactate threshold can be defined the way Ric described, and there are also a few other methods to find it in lab test results. According to Ric's definitions - 1 mmol increase over baseline or workload that elicits 2.5 mmol - it may seem like that is easy to reach without much work (i.e. 230 watts in your case and according to the definition), but actually it's probably right on. Many well-trained endurance athletes will show a very small elevation from baseline for a couple of stages in a LT test. The curve will appear to be curvilinear where it will be flat during the first couple of increasing stages and will then "break" upward at some point. Athletes who may not be as trained, or those who may be less aerobically trained will reach that break point earlier and the lactate curve will appear more linear.
Although 230 watts isn't bad for most recreational/age-group racers. You really should plot the data or look at the lactate curve to determine where the LT is. If the person who did the test on you used only a 1 mmol above baseline or 2.5 mmol point to determine where your LT is, then I would ask him for the raw data so you could have someone else look at it. You cannot only go by the definitions of LT because everyone is different. While your LT may be close to the workload you achieved at 2.5 mmol, if you examine the raw data, you may find that your LT is actually at a workload that elicited 2.8 or 2.9 mmol, and this will be a slightly higher workload. While the definitions are good, they cannot be relied on solely.

So to answer your question about AT, yes, I would forget about AT. Just don't get too caught up in all of these numbers, terms, and definitions. You know what race pace feels like, and you know what an easy ride feels like. If you don't have the means to train by power, there are other ways around it where you can still get good workouts in. If you have a coach, he can tell you when you should go easier and when you should have a hard workout.

Check out this link to see the curve that I'm talking about.

hello,

sorry for the late reply, but I was out for training purposes in Spain for a week.. I'm back now, and I would like to thank you for the extensive reply..

I hope you can acces the following link :

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wB4bQk...Lactaattesten/LACTAATTESTTHYSBART17062004.xls

this is the result of my test.. That 230 Watt (LT) I talked about wasn't calculated by my physicist, but I did that myself.. not sure whether it is correct or not...

This being said, I'm still having dificulties to grasp for what purpose this LT can be used to guide your training..

greetings !

 

[Bamberg]

hello,
I'm a bit puzzled by the statement that LT equals the workload that elicits a 2,5 mmol/L lactate. When I did a VO2max test, I reached 2,5mmol with 230 Watt output.. At 4mmol, i pushed 280watt and my maximum was 380Watt.

According to my fysicist , my AT was at that stage situated at 305 Watt..
QUOTE]

Lactate or anaerobic, I am just plain jealous of your numbers! Are you a licensed rider? If so Class A or B?

GS1 team riders do hill training at about 320 watts, so if I read your message correctly, you can train at almost the same level as Lance, Jan, Wino, etc.

 

[lyot]

hello,
I'm a bit puzzled by the statement that LT equals the workload that elicits a 2,5 mmol/L lactate. When I did a VO2max test, I reached 2,5mmol with 230 Watt output.. At 4mmol, i pushed 280watt and my maximum was 380Watt.

According to my fysicist , my AT was at that stage situated at 305 Watt..
QUOTE]

Lactate or anaerobic, I am just plain jealous of your numbers! Are you a licensed rider? If so Class A or B?

GS1 team riders do hill training at about 320 watts, so if I read your message correctly, you can train at almost the same level as Lance, Jan, Wino, etc.

Hello,
you are overestimating my capacities to quite a large extent.. Pro do have much higher outputs in Watt then what I perform

I do ride competition in Belgium ( Elite without contract category) and I'm good enough to follow the pack. Nothing more then that, unfortunately...

You also need to take into account the Watt/kg output you deliver.. For me, that's about 4.05Watt/kg at AT ... Pro's do easily get 6 or even 7Watt/kg in some cases . That's a whole different league

I see that my curves are not accesible. I will try to get them online tomorrow

 

[lyot]

I finally managed to get my data online.. THese are not the data from the test I first talked about , but from a test later in season .. I manage to do 250 Watt at 2.5Mmol & 300 Watt at about 4Mmol..

http://users.pandora.be/lyotroadracing/Bartthijs061004.xls

do I have to rely on the first or the latter to make training schedules ?

 

[Orange Fish]

I finally managed to get my data online.. THese are not the data from the test I first talked about , but from a test later in season .. I manage to do 250 Watt at 2.5Mmol & 300 Watt at about 4Mmol..

do I have to rely on the first or the latter to make training schedules ?

for some reason I can't access the document. when i click on the link it says that it's not found. i'd love to look at it though. private message me with your email address and i can email you and then you can send it to me that way maybe.

by the way, where in belgium are you from?

 

[lyot]

for some reason I can't access the document. when i click on the link it says that it's not found. i'd love to look at it though. private message me with your email address and i can email you and then you can send it to me that way maybe.

by the way, where in belgium are you from?

hey Orange Fish, my email is [email protected]

You gotta check that new link I've posted today => this one :
http://users.pandora.be/lyotroadrac...thijs061004.xls

If it doesn't work, just sent me an email , i will forward the data then

I'm situated in the city of Leuven, which is not so far from Brussels, the capital (about 15 Miles) ..

 

[Orange Fish]

hey Orange Fish, my email is [email protected]

You gotta check that new link I've posted today => this one :
http://users.pandora.be/lyotroadrac...thijs061004.xls

If it doesn't work, just sent me an email , i will forward the data then

I'm situated in the city of Leuven, which is not so far from Brussels, the capital (about 15 Miles) ..

Cool, I think I remember hearing about or seeing your city when I was in Belgium last year for a race. We stayed about an hour northeast of Brussels in Geel. It was a really nice town! Can't wait to visit again.

I'll send you an email because it's still not working for me for some reason.
Thanks!

 

[lyot]

Cool, I think I remember hearing about or seeing your city when I was in Belgium last year for a race. We stayed about an hour northeast of Brussels in Geel. It was a really nice town! Can't wait to visit again.

I'll send you an email because it's still not working for me for some reason.
Thanks!

hey Orange Fish, I sent you an email !

the correct link, once and for all, for the others :

http://users.pandora.be/lyotroadracing/Bartthijs061004.xls

greetings

 

[matteobma]

Those two terms are very confusing, and often the AT is regarded as a misnomer because if we think of having an actual point at which we become "anaerobic," it leads people to think that everything up to that point is aerobic and everything after that point is anaerobic, which is incorrect. In reality, we're always using both aerobic and anaerobic metabolic pathways to produce energy, but intensity will dictate how much of each we will use.

So focusing on LT is a better way to play. Lactate threshold can be defined the way Ric described, and there are also a few other methods to find it in lab test results. According to Ric's definitions - 1 mmol increase over baseline or workload that elicits 2.5 mmol - it may seem like that is easy to reach without much work (i.e. 230 watts in your case and according to the definition), but actually it's probably right on. Many well-trained endurance athletes will show a very small elevation from baseline for a couple of stages in a LT test. The curve will appear to be curvilinear where it will be flat during the first couple of increasing stages and will then "break" upward at some point. Athletes who may not be as trained, or those who may be less aerobically trained will reach that break point earlier and the lactate curve will appear more linear.
Although 230 watts isn't bad for most recreational/age-group racers. You really should plot the data or look at the lactate curve to determine where the LT is. If the person who did the test on you used only a 1 mmol above baseline or 2.5 mmol point to determine where your LT is, then I would ask him for the raw data so you could have someone else look at it. You cannot only go by the definitions of LT because everyone is different. While your LT may be close to the workload you achieved at 2.5 mmol, if you examine the raw data, you may find that your LT is actually at a workload that elicited 2.8 or 2.9 mmol, and this will be a slightly higher workload. While the definitions are good, they cannot be relied on solely.

So to answer your question about AT, yes, I would forget about AT. Just don't get too caught up in all of these numbers, terms, and definitions. You know what race pace feels like, and you know what an easy ride feels like. If you don't have the means to train by power, there are other ways around it where you can still get good workouts in. If you have a coach, he can tell you when you should go easier and when you should have a hard workout.

Check out this link to see the curve that I'm talking about.

Thank's for your comments Orange fish !
Very very interesting.
Bye Matteo

 

[dhk]

hey Orange Fish, I sent you an email !

the correct link, once and for all, for the others :

http://users.pandora.be/lyotroadracing/Bartthijs061004.xls

greetings

Thanks for posting the link to your test results. Seeing this set of graphs together is interesting and informative.

 

[Orange Fish]

Thank's for your comments Orange fish !
Very very interesting.
Bye Matteo

You're welcome!

 

[lyot]

Thanks for posting the link to your test results. Seeing this set of graphs together is interesting and informative.

no problem !

i still wonder though what is the difference between LT & AT with regard to these graphs, and how each of them can be used and incorporated in training..A nyone ?

 

[lyot]

bump .. please anyone ?

 

[Orange Fish]

no problem !

i still wonder though what is the difference between LT & AT with regard to these graphs, and how each of them can be used and incorporated in training..A nyone ?

Hey Lyot,
Well, the difference between LT & AT as described above is going to stay the same. But as mentioned above, LT is better to focus on than AT. In regards to the graph, the LT is shown by that sharp rise in the line (I think around 280 watts in your graph if I remember correctly?). Basically, when you're below that point, your body can clear lactate faster than it is being accumulated. When you're above that point, lactate accumulates faster than it can be removed and starts to build up.

Check out this link. It's a web page that has a pretty good description of what you're looking for I think. Some good examples too. Hopefully this helps.