Radical gearing change: advice needed...

[Bonge Boo]

I hope someone has some suggestion on how I should best proceed?

After a very very long time off the bike, I recently started riding my
ancient mountain bike again. However off-road isn't an option any more,
so I decided to get a racer so I could go faster and further. Commuting
to work (2.5 miles) is the plan. I have some steep hills around me.

Ebay came up trumps and I got myself a slightly scruffy, but
mechanically sound Specialized Allez. It's great! Apart from the fact
that the gears are way to long. You'd need to live in Holland to make
use of the gearing, unless you've got the thighs of Ullrich and oxygen
carrying capacity of Armstrong...

Today I decided to see how feasible it would be to ride to work. Getting
there is great. Getting back is purgatory. I was on the lowest gear and
couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp on the pedals.
Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.

The bike has a Sora 2005 groupset, apart from a 9 speed Tiagra rear
mech. Chainset is a 52x39 and the cassette is a 12-25.

Having done these rides on my mountain bike, which has a front 48x38x28
and 12-30 rear, I frequently have to get in the lowest gear and just
spin up the hills.

So my question is really this. What is the most cost effective way of
getting myself some gearing that is going to be more usable? If I could
get to near a 1:1 ratio I'll be fine.

I believe that if I try to put a triple on the front I'll have to
replace the chainset, mech and STI lever? Is that right?

So another alternative might be to swap the rear cassette with an
8-speed 34 tooth "mega-range" and put a MTB rear mech on it? That would
mean a new chain as well I s/pose.

Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will balls
up the STI?

Help! Any suggestions gratefully received.

 

[Nigel Cliffe]

Bonge Boo wrote:
> Commuting to work (2.5 miles) is the plan. I have some steep hills
> around me.
> Ebay came up trumps and I got myself a slightly scruffy, but
> mechanically sound Specialized Allez. It's great! Apart from the fact
> that the gears are way to long.

> Today I decided to see how feasible it would be to ride to work.
> Getting there is great. Getting back is purgatory. I was on the
> lowest gear and couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp
> on the pedals. Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.
>
> The bike has a Sora 2005 groupset, apart from a 9 speed Tiagra rear
> mech. Chainset is a 52x39 and the cassette is a 12-25.
>
> Having done these rides on my mountain bike, which has a front
> 48x38x28 and 12-30 rear, I frequently have to get in the lowest gear
> and just spin up the hills.
>
> So my question is really this. What is the most cost effective way of
> getting myself some gearing that is going to be more usable? If I
> could get to near a 1:1 ratio I'll be fine.
>
> I believe that if I try to put a triple on the front I'll have to
> replace the chainset, mech and STI lever? Is that right?

Plus bottom bracket, both front and rear derraileur mechs (rear is probably
a short-cage, and unlikely have big enough capacity for the gear range).


> So another alternative might be to swap the rear cassette with an
> 8-speed 34 tooth "mega-range" and put a MTB rear mech on it? That
> would mean a new chain as well I s/pose.

And new shifters. You said they were 9 speed.
However, I think there are 9 speed rear cassettes for MTB.


> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will
> balls up the STI?


Various options which spring to mind:

a) "Compact" chainsets. These are typically 34/50 double. No idea if your
Sora shifters or front mech will cope. Chances are the rear derraileur will
not be big enough, so you'll need a new one of those.

b) Bigger rear cassette. But don't take it about 28/29 teeth otherwise
you'll loose most of the advantages of the road bike's close gearing.
Again, probably need new rear derraileur to cope with the increased teeth
count. There are SHimano 12-27 9-speed cassettes, possibly a good match
with a compact front chainset.

c) Triple chain ring (Note there are some adaptors available which might
allow you to hang a third ring on the inside of your existing double, try
Spa Cycles? Might save cost of new crankset ).
But, as you say, the LH shifter won't work with a triple. Lower cost option
might be to use a down-tube shifter for the chain-rings, but leave the STI
on the RH side for the rear (Mr Armstrong rode bikes that way, so you can
always claim credibility ).
Will require at least new rear derraileur to cope with increased tooth
count, may need new bottom bracket to move chain rings out far enough. May
need new front derraileur to cope with the small chain ring.

d) Bite bullet and change entire transmission to something suitable for your
needs. Trouble is Shimano don't really do a good option, and Campag are
moving out of the area as well. If that route, I'd say swap to Campag and
get a triple front (30.40.50) and 13-28(ish) rear. But very expensive, so
(e) may be cheaper.

e) Sell bike and buy one with gearing suited to your legs

d) Get fit enough to ride bike up the hill. However, I think that 39/25
minimum is fine for fit racing types, but too high for normal people. I will
happily ride 75 miles plus in a day, but still want my bottom gears.




--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

 

[Jim Higson]

Bonge Boo wrote:

> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will balls
> up the STI?

I don't think the shifter would mind, but most road bikes have a spider that
only goes down to 38 or 39t.

I've done a similar project to what you want by using a 52/42/28 triple and
13/28 cassette - I live at the top of a fairly big hill and it gets me down
without spinning out too much and up when I'm tired without mashing. After
a few months of commuting I can get up in the middle ring most days, but
the granny was essential at first.

You can get "tripliser" middle rings to avoid buying a whole chainset - the
small ring bolts onto the middle so you don't need a new crank. You'd have
to check it'd fit in your frame first, or get a longer BB.

You might be able to get away with changing the cassette from a 12-25 (or
whatever you have) to a 13-28 without a new chain, since the biggest
combination is only three teeth more. Then again, chains are cheaper than
cassettes and worn chains wear out new cassettes so unless your existing
chain is almost new, I'd get a new chain anyway.

Hope this helps,
Jim

 

[Tony Raven]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:42:17 +0100, Bonge Boo wrote:

>
> Help! Any suggestions gratefully received.

You could try slapping on a mountain bike chainset which might give you
enough gain to get you up the hills to start with and I bet in a month or
two they will suddenly seem a lot easier when you can switch back to the
original chainset. The front derailleur won't be optimal for the MTB
chainset but it should work OK and you might theoretically need a new
bottom bracket to get the chainline right - but again if its just for a
month or two, no need to bother.

Tony

 

[Bonge Boo]

Nigel Cliffe wrote:
> Bonge Boo wrote:
>> Commuting to work (2.5 miles) is the plan. I have some steep hills
>> around me.
>> Ebay came up trumps and I got myself a slightly scruffy, but
>> mechanically sound Specialized Allez. It's great! Apart from the fact
>> that the gears are way to long.
>
>> Today I decided to see how feasible it would be to ride to work.
>> Getting there is great. Getting back is purgatory. I was on the
>> lowest gear and couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp
>> on the pedals. Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.
>>
>> The bike has a Sora 2005 groupset, apart from a 9 speed Tiagra rear
>> mech. Chainset is a 52x39 and the cassette is a 12-25.
>>
>> Having done these rides on my mountain bike, which has a front
>> 48x38x28 and 12-30 rear, I frequently have to get in the lowest gear
>> and just spin up the hills.
>>
>> So my question is really this. What is the most cost effective way of
>> getting myself some gearing that is going to be more usable? If I
>> could get to near a 1:1 ratio I'll be fine.
>>
>> I believe that if I try to put a triple on the front I'll have to
>> replace the chainset, mech and STI lever? Is that right?
>
> Plus bottom bracket, both front and rear derraileur mechs (rear is probably
> a short-cage, and unlikely have big enough capacity for the gear range).

Ouch.

>> So another alternative might be to swap the rear cassette with an
>> 8-speed 34 tooth "mega-range" and put a MTB rear mech on it? That
>> would mean a new chain as well I s/pose.
>
> And new shifters. You said they were 9 speed.
> However, I think there are 9 speed rear cassettes for MTB.

The shifters are 8 speed - but I believe STI rear shifters are
completely interchangable from road to MTB so I think I will be able to
keep them...

>> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
>> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will
>> balls up the STI?
>
> Various options which spring to mind:
>
> a) "Compact" chainsets. These are typically 34/50 double. No idea if your
> Sora shifters or front mech will cope. Chances are the rear derraileur will
> not be big enough, so you'll need a new one of those.

I don't believe the shifters will work with a compact, but its worth
investigation...

> b) Bigger rear cassette. But don't take it about 28/29 teeth otherwise
> you'll loose most of the advantages of the road bike's close gearing.
> Again, probably need new rear derraileur to cope with the increased teeth
> count. There are SHimano 12-27 9-speed cassettes, possibly a good match
> with a compact front chainset.

HUmmm. 44x27. Still gonna be pretty long for me. I need neaerer to 1:1
than 1.6:1

> c) Triple chain ring (Note there are some adaptors available which might
> allow you to hang a third ring on the inside of your existing double, try
> Spa Cycles? Might save cost of new crankset ).
> But, as you say, the LH shifter won't work with a triple. Lower cost option
> might be to use a down-tube shifter for the chain-rings, but leave the STI
> on the RH side for the rear (Mr Armstrong rode bikes that way, so you can
> always claim credibility ).
> Will require at least new rear derraileur to cope with increased tooth
> count, may need new bottom bracket to move chain rings out far enough. May
> need new front derraileur to cope with the small chain ring.

Ouch.

> d) Bite bullet and change entire transmission to something suitable for your
> needs. Trouble is Shimano don't really do a good option, and Campag are
> moving out of the area as well. If that route, I'd say swap to Campag and
> get a triple front (30.40.50) and 13-28(ish) rear. But very expensive, so
> (e) may be cheaper.

Yes, that was my calculation...

> e) Sell bike and buy one with gearing suited to your legs

It's looking that way. But I think if that's the case I'm gonna have to
get an MTB and put skinnies on it. Standard road gearing is silly for
this terrain.

> d) Get fit enough to ride bike up the hill. However, I think that 39/25
> minimum is fine for fit racing types, but too high for normal people. I will
> happily ride 75 miles plus in a day, but still want my bottom gears.

Sadly i have a pre-existing medical condition that makes "getting fit
enough to rid up 1:5 hills a non starter on those gears.

Thank you for your thoughts...

 

[Bonge Boo]

Jim Higson wrote:
> Bonge Boo wrote:
>
>> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
>> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will balls
>> up the STI?
>
> I don't think the shifter would mind, but most road bikes have a spider that
> only goes down to 38 or 39t.
>
> I've done a similar project to what you want by using a 52/42/28 triple and
> 13/28 cassette - I live at the top of a fairly big hill and it gets me down
> without spinning out too much and up when I'm tired without mashing. After
> a few months of commuting I can get up in the middle ring most days, but
> the granny was essential at first.

> You can get "tripliser" middle rings to avoid buying a whole chainset - the
> small ring bolts onto the middle so you don't need a new crank. You'd have
> to check it'd fit in your frame first, or get a longer BB.

I've read about this sort of chainring, but can't find any links on the
web. Any pointers?

> You might be able to get away with changing the cassette from a 12-25 (or
> whatever you have) to a 13-28 without a new chain, since the biggest
> combination is only three teeth more. Then again, chains are cheaper than
> cassettes and worn chains wear out new cassettes so unless your existing
> chain is almost new, I'd get a new chain anyway.
>
> Hope this helps,

It's all useful info. Thanks.

 

[Nigel Cliffe]

Bonge Boo wrote:
> Jim Higson wrote:
>> Bonge Boo wrote:
>>
>>> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
>>> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will
>>> balls up the STI?
>>
>> I don't think the shifter would mind, but most road bikes have a
>> spider that only goes down to 38 or 39t.
>>
>> I've done a similar project to what you want by using a 52/42/28
>> triple and 13/28 cassette - I live at the top of a fairly big hill
>> and it gets me down without spinning out too much and up when I'm
>> tired without mashing. After a few months of commuting I can get up
>> in the middle ring most days, but the granny was essential at first.
>
>> You can get "tripliser" middle rings to avoid buying a whole
>> chainset - the small ring bolts onto the middle so you don't need a
>> new crank. You'd have to check it'd fit in your frame first, or get
>> a longer BB.
>
> I've read about this sort of chainring, but can't find any links on
> the web. Any pointers?

Try Spa Cycles. You might have to ring/email rather than website, they
stock far more than their website lists.




--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

 

[Eatmorepies]

"Bonge Boo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I hope someone has some suggestion on how I should best proceed?
>
> After a very very long time off the bike, I recently started riding my
> ancient mountain bike again. However off-road isn't an option any more, so
> I decided to get a racer so I could go faster and further. Commuting to
> work (2.5 miles) is the plan. I have some steep hills around me.
>
snip <>

> Help! Any suggestions gratefully received.

I use a Dawes Giro 200 as a road bike. Flat bars, triple on the front and a
big range cassette. It's not mountain bike low but it is much lower than a
road racer. It comes with road wheels - i.e. skinny high pressure tyres, and
it's much easier to pedal than the mountain bike with city slickers that I
was using before. I paid £270 new but I've seen them go on eBay sub £150
with hardly and wear on them.

Several bike companies seem to making this type of bike; they are often
called fitness bikes.

John

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Tony Raven wrote:
>On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 18:42:17 +0100, Bonge Boo wrote:
>
>>
>> Help! Any suggestions gratefully received.
>
>You could try slapping on a mountain bike chainset which might give you
>enough gain to get you up the hills to start with and I bet in a month or
>two they will suddenly seem a lot easier when you can switch back to the
>original chainset. The front derailleur won't be optimal for the MTB
>chainset but it should work OK

Swapping from a road double to a mountain triple? If it manages all three
chainrings, is his current rear derailer going to cope with the slack?
Or are you suggesting just using the top two rings of the triple?

 

[Bonge Boo]

Nigel Cliffe wrote:
> Bonge Boo wrote:
>> Jim Higson wrote:
>>> Bonge Boo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
>>>> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will
>>>> balls up the STI?
>>> I don't think the shifter would mind, but most road bikes have a
>>> spider that only goes down to 38 or 39t.
>>>
>>> I've done a similar project to what you want by using a 52/42/28
>>> triple and 13/28 cassette - I live at the top of a fairly big hill
>>> and it gets me down without spinning out too much and up when I'm
>>> tired without mashing. After a few months of commuting I can get up
>>> in the middle ring most days, but the granny was essential at first.
>>> You can get "tripliser" middle rings to avoid buying a whole
>>> chainset - the small ring bolts onto the middle so you don't need a
>>> new crank. You'd have to check it'd fit in your frame first, or get
>>> a longer BB.
>> I've read about this sort of chainring, but can't find any links on
>> the web. Any pointers?
>
> Try Spa Cycles. You might have to ring/email rather than website, they
> stock far more than their website lists.

Thank you.

 

[Tony Raven]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:03:31 +0100, Alan Braggins wrote:

>
> Swapping from a road double to a mountain triple? If it manages all
> three chainrings, is his current rear derailer going to cope with the
> slack? Or are you suggesting just using the top two rings of the triple?

I'm assuming that you would just use the top larger rings unless the
front derailleur and its changer are a triple (in which case just putting
a triple road chainset on would solve the problem). Theoretically the
chain might end up being too long but as long as you stay away from small/
small combinations it should do for a month or two.

Tony

 

[Doki]

"Bonge Boo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> So another alternative might be to swap the rear cassette with an 8-speed
> 34 tooth "mega-range" and put a MTB rear mech on it? That would mean a new
> chain as well I s/pose.

I'd put an 8 speed rear cassette on (SRAM 11-32 MTB cogs would be my choice,
cheap and good), and a Deore rear mech. Should match up with the shifters
happily enough. It'd be a bit of a strange brew, but I suspect it'd be good
enough to get a road bike up hills. IME a road bike is a hell of a lot
easier to push along than a mountain bike, so you won't need quite so short
gearing.

 

[Martin Bulmer]

Bonge Boo wrote:
couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp
> on the pedals. Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.
>
You'll be fine after 2 weeks.
--


Martin Bulmer

 

[Bonge Boo]

Martin Bulmer wrote:
> Bonge Boo wrote:
> couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp
>> on the pedals. Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.
>>
> You'll be fine after 2 weeks.

Sorry, but I won't be.

I have some fairly restrictive parameters to work in, related to a
medical condition. I can't put on muscle mass. So the only option is to
just to have more efficient muscle. And there ain't much of it to make
efficient in the first place. Hence the need to small gears.

And damn my legs and back hurt this morning.

 

[Rob Morley]

In article <[email protected]>, Bonge Boo
[email protected] says...
<snip>
> Help! Any suggestions gratefully received.
>

Something like this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300141789355
There are a few other rings for this on eBay ATM, including 40 and 42
tooth.
I run 32/44 on 12/26 with Ultegra mechs with no problems, but with 28/45
you'd probably have to get the chain length spot on and be careful to
avoid the big/big and small/small combinations. The front mech will
probably be on its limits too.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Bonge Boo
('[email protected]') wrote:

> I hope someone has some suggestion on how I should best proceed?
>
> After a very very long time off the bike, I recently started riding my
> ancient mountain bike again. However off-road isn't an option any more,
> so I decided to get a racer so I could go faster and further. Commuting
> to work (2.5 miles) is the plan. I have some steep hills around me.
>
> Ebay came up trumps and I got myself a slightly scruffy, but
> mechanically sound Specialized Allez. It's great! Apart from the fact
> that the gears are way to long. You'd need to live in Holland to make
> use of the gearing, unless you've got the thighs of Ullrich and oxygen
> carrying capacity of Armstrong...

[snip]

> The bike has a Sora 2005 groupset, apart from a 9 speed Tiagra rear
> mech. Chainset is a 52x39 and the cassette is a 12-25.

Don't throw anything away, as once you have reasonable fitness the gears
you have now are the ones you're going to want in normally hilly country
in Britain (if you live in /very/ hilly country you may want a triple in
the long term, and if you can learn to spin like a dervish you may want a
compact double in the long term). But my bet is that in a year's time
you'll be riding the bike with more or less the gearing it has now.

However, the question is how to get from here to there. If the bike isn't
fun to ride in your present state of fitness you won't ride it and you
won't get fitter. My advice would be, fit a compact double (e.g. 50-34) at
the front and wider range cassette (e.g. 12-27) on the back.

If you did this you'd only have to replace chainset and cassette;
everything else would be fine. And, as you get your fitness back, it would
be reasonably simple to change back to your current gearing.

> Having done these rides on my mountain bike, which has a front 48x38x28
> and 12-30 rear, I frequently have to get in the lowest gear and just
> spin up the hills.

A road bike isn't a mountain bike. It doesn't weigh as much, doesn't have
energy-sapping suspension, and has lower rolling resistance. Spinning up
hills is good, of course, but you don't need gears like that to do it on
the road.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
,/| _.--''^``-...___.._.,;
/, \'. _-' ,--,,,--'''
{ \ `_-'' ' /
`;;' ; ; ;
._..--'' ._,,, _..' .;.'
(,_....----''' (,..--''

 

[Tony Raven]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:58:01 +0100, Bonge Boo wrote:

>
> Sorry, but I won't be.
>
> I have some fairly restrictive parameters to work in, related to a
> medical condition. I can't put on muscle mass. So the only option is to
> just to have more efficient muscle. And there ain't much of it to make
> efficient in the first place. Hence the need to small gears.
>

Regardless as your muscles, circulatory system and lungs become adjusted
to it it will get better and easier.

> And damn my legs and back hurt this morning.

That will pass too unless you take the LeMond approach of "It never gets
easier, you just go faster".

Tony

 

[M-gineering]

Bonge Boo wrote:
> I hope someone has some suggestion on how I should best proceed?
>
> After a very very long time off the bike, I recently started riding my
> ancient mountain bike again. However off-road isn't an option any more,
> so I decided to get a racer so I could go faster and further. Commuting
> to work (2.5 miles) is the plan. I have some steep hills around me.
>
> Ebay came up trumps and I got myself a slightly scruffy, but
> mechanically sound Specialized Allez. It's great! Apart from the fact
> that the gears are way to long. You'd need to live in Holland to make
> use of the gearing, unless you've got the thighs of Ullrich and oxygen
> carrying capacity of Armstrong...
>
> Today I decided to see how feasible it would be to ride to work. Getting
> there is great. Getting back is purgatory. I was on the lowest gear and
> couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp on the pedals.
> Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.
>
> The bike has a Sora 2005 groupset, apart from a 9 speed Tiagra rear
> mech. Chainset is a 52x39 and the cassette is a 12-25.
>
> Having done these rides on my mountain bike, which has a front 48x38x28
> and 12-30 rear, I frequently have to get in the lowest gear and just
> spin up the hills.
>
> So my question is really this. What is the most cost effective way of
> getting myself some gearing that is going to be more usable? If I could
> get to near a 1:1 ratio I'll be fine.
>
> I believe that if I try to put a triple on the front I'll have to
> replace the chainset, mech and STI lever? Is that right?
>
> So another alternative might be to swap the rear cassette with an
> 8-speed 34 tooth "mega-range" and put a MTB rear mech on it? That would
> mean a new chain as well I s/pose.
>
> Alternatively I could try to find a much smaller front chainring. I
> reckon a 30x44 would do the job nicely. But I'm guessing that will balls
> up the STI?
>
> Help! Any suggestions gratefully received.

unless the lh shifter says triple (st 3304) it will shift a double only.
You could fit a MTB cluster with long arm derailleur and this will
give you low gears but also many very high ones. I'd consider getting a
42-32-22 crankset, removing the 22 and dropping the derailleur to suit.
(wont work if your frame doesn't use a tubeclamp) It won't be brilliant
but it should work. You might even try reusing you BB axle (there is a
splined Altus crankset) but a good old fashioned square axle crankset
will be more flexible and might be cheaper.

Stick to a 10-12t drop at the chainwheel, STI doesn't like the
adventures of yesteryear

You might combine this with an 11-28 cluster without having to resort to
a mtb mech

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

 

[Membrane]

Bonge Boo <[email protected]> wrote:

>> couldn't possibly do anything but stand up and stamp
>>> on the pedals. Really exhausting, bad for the joints, etc.
>>>
>> You'll be fine after 2 weeks.
>
>Sorry, but I won't be.
>
>I have some fairly restrictive parameters to work in, related to a
>medical condition. I can't put on muscle mass.

My lowest gear is a 22 front, 28 back which gives me 21.3 gear inches,
and I both use and need it. If you feel you need low gears, go for it.
People's opinion is based on the type of terrain they are used to, which
may be very different to the terrain that you need to tackle.

On a recent 200k I spun up a tough climb with relative ease where plenty
of others were wobbling all over the place, or getting off because they
couldn't turn their gears.

--
Membrane

 

[Tony Raven]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:07:14 +0100, Membrane wrote:
>
> My lowest gear is a 22 front, 28 back which gives me 21.3 gear inches,
> and I both use and need it. If you feel you need low gears, go for it.
> People's opinion is based on the type of terrain they are used to, which
> may be very different to the terrain that you need to tackle.
>
> On a recent 200k I spun up a tough climb with relative ease where plenty
> of others were wobbling all over the place, or getting off because they
> couldn't turn their gears.

Although I find my hill climbing ability is usually limited by the
slowest speed at which I can still balance not by the gears.

Tony