Rant: The joy of having tools...

Mike Beauchamp said:

just transportation) and even considered purchasing a road bike. Unfortunately, being a student I
don't have the cash.

A cheap alternative is to salvage a discarded 10-speed on trash day; fix it up, and it's no worse
than a MTB with slicks, with the added advantage of allowing your MTB to go off-road without
changing the tires.

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fixed obviously. I -hated-the idea of going to a bike store, but I didn't have the tools necessary
to pull cranks off, remove BB and take off the cartridge (to replace rear broken spoke). But I
paid the local shop to do
it...

The tools cost less than the labor for any given job, IME.

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it. I also noticed that they gave me a bottom of the line chain (even they took off my old chain,
which was pretty high quality), gave me a [censored] BB, etc.

This is standard practice; if not told what to use, and they use expensive stuff, the customers will
get pretty angry most of the time. They used what gets them in the least trouble.

It probably would have been better to ask you, first.

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Since for some reason I didn't get to pick the components ahead of time when I told them to
replace them,

For what reason? Just because they didn't ask, is no reason for you not to tell. If you don't tell
them what you want, they don't KNOW what you want. They can't read your mind. Again, they're
supposed to ask; so it was a mutual miscommunication.

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I figured they'd at least put on equivalent components.

They deal with people every day who buy a good bike, then when components need to be replaced, won't
spend the money. Standard practice evolved as a way to avoid trouble.

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Even little stuff kinda got to me like the fact that I had good rim tape on my rear rim and when
they returned it they just replaced it (badly) with electrical tape instead!!!

That's pretty nuts. Sounds like they're jerkoffs, for not asking what you want in general, and for
doing something dumb like that in specific.

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Buy the tools i need to do it myself.

It's in your soul, you knew you should have done this, why did you stray? 🙂

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The slicks they sold me were [censored], so I

I can't imagine a MTB slick that, relative to another MTB slick, would be described as [censored].
Exactly what were they, and what was wrong with them?

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I also ordered their "Big Tool Kit 2" and BOY am I glad I did!!!

I'm jealous. I should make myself a couple chainwhips and buy some cassette lockring and freehweel
removers...

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But they did charge me $20 labour.

Wow! No wonder they're jerkoffs. I've never heard of getting ANYTHING done at a LBS and only getting
charged $20 labor, let alone everything you had done. Unless they put a whole lot of labor money
into the parts...

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(I should get a bike and truing stand

Those are nice, but you can do almost everything without them; you can true for lateral run-out (is
that term applied properly here?) against the brake pads, for example -- it won't be academically
perfect, but it can be perfect for your bike with it's brakes.

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I would have GLADLY bought all the [censored] at their store that I bought at nashbar instead

I don't know if I'd want to support THAT store, especially not at LBS vs. Nashbar prices.

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Not treated me like I know nothing about bikes when I'm in the store.

If you don't prove it or know them personally, then they assume you are like all the rest of their
customers.

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Mike mikebeauchamp.commikebeauchamp.comOpen ↗

--
Rick Onanian

Mike Beauchamp said:

As for the truing/bike stand thing. I just think buying a used truing stand is worth it if I'm
doing wheels for other people on a regular basis (something I'd like to eventually do).

I possibly wouldn't trust a used truing stand; it needs to be a precision instrument. New ones can
be had cheaply if you don't look for professional quality, but you get what you pay for. I think
some $30 to $40 at nashbar and performance.

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In the meantime, as you said, the brake pad method has been fine for me.

Gets my wheels as true as I can see or care for.

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Lastly, I do understand how running a store can be hard. Dealing with people can be hard,
especially the cheap asses that don't want to spend any money on things.

Yup, and again, local [bicycle | computer | anything] shops adopt practices that behoove them; when
I worked in a local computer shop doing repairs and upgrades, I went in all hopped up on computer
magazines and idealism; but pragmatism and cynicism set in. I did, however, make sure that the
customer knew (to the best of their ability) what they were getting.

Quoted message said:

Mike mikebeauchamp.commikebeauchamp.comOpen ↗

--
Rick Onanian

The computer shop thing is a GREAT example... my friends and I were talking about building
legitimately good systems for people. The conflict that most bike stores probably have to put up
with ended up coming into play...

That is, a lot of people only care about one thing.. the speed of the CPU. That is how Dell and
Gateway and all that make their computers. [censored] components with a fast CPU. It's cheap and looks
great on paper when it says
2.4Ghz, even though a 1.8Ghz without certain bottlenecks caused by the budgets can blow it out of
the water.

Thanks for the advicee on the truing stand...

Mike mikebeauchamp.commikebeauchamp.comOpen ↗

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Beauchamp said:

As for the truing/bike stand thing. I just think buying a used truing stand is worth it if I'm
doing wheels for other people on a regular basis (something I'd like to eventually do).

I possibly wouldn't trust a used truing stand; it needs to be a precision instrument. New ones can
be had cheaply if you don't look for professional quality, but you get what you pay for. I think
some $30 to $40 at nashbar and performance.

Quoted message said:

In the meantime, as you said, the brake pad method has been fine for me.

Gets my wheels as true as I can see or care for.

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Lastly, I do understand how running a store can be hard. Dealing with people can be hard,
especially the cheap asses that don't want to spend any money on things.

Yup, and again, local [bicycle | computer | anything] shops adopt practices that behoove them;
when I worked in a local computer shop doing repairs and upgrades, I went in all hopped up on
computer magazines and idealism; but pragmatism and cynicism set in. I did, however, make sure
that the customer knew (to the best of their ability) what they were getting.

Quoted message said:

Mike mikebeauchamp.commikebeauchamp.comOpen ↗

--
Rick Onanian

"Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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The post was a little vague, I had these repairs done in multiple visits (yeah, i went back for
some reason). Eg. The spoke thing was separate, I broke that one day while riding.

The reason I didn't ask about the components during the BB/Chain

replacement

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is because they just said "okay, we'll give ya a call. see ya later." and then started dealing
with another customer. It was my mistake to not

specify

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exactly what I wanted, I know that...

As for the slicks being [censored], I gave them to my friend (who was still

using

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knobbies on pavement) so I can't tell you the make. They weighed way more than my knobbies, and
were punctured with a piece of wood the first week.. very flimsy. But at the same time, they were
really stiff in a way that

made

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them refuse to seat properly for several hours! They were also 2.0 which

is

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the only size they had at the shop, and I do prefer something a little skinnier. My friend seems
to be happy with them, as they are better than knobbies...

About the $20 labour thing. I was talking specifically about the broken spoke incident. For
replacing a single spoke, I'd say $20 labour is overpriced. The fact that I discovered other
spokes should have been replaceed as well when I took the cassette off sort of pisses me off too.
But then again, I never said specifically "if any other spokes look

damaged,

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replace them too".

As for the truing/bike stand thing. I just think buying a used truing

stand

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is worth it if I'm doing wheels for other people on a regular basis (something I'd like to
eventually do). In the meantime, as you said, the brake pad method has been fine for me.

Lastly, I do understand how running a store can be hard. Dealing with

people

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can be hard, especially the cheap asses that don't want to spend any money on things.

-snip after the top-post-

I often tell my emplyees that most service "problems" are not technical , they are communicative.

Yours is a good example. When a customer asks to "just drop off his bike" and have us "fix what's
needed" we have to refuse the job. We generally only accept work if we can review the bicycle with
the owner ( takes one minute to do a thorough inspection) and then agree on the parameters before we
begin. Truing is exceptionally nebulous. We know when a flat tire is repaired- the thing hoolds air.
We don't always know when a wheel is true enough, given what we started with and what you expect.

A thirty-second touch up in the bike, that plus a rim dent pressed, a thorough detensioning,
lubrication and retensioning, hub adjustment or even full hub rebuild with new parts( Necessary for
truing in some cases -like a broken axle) , spoke replacements --all can vary that job from $1 to
$60 or $80 and I am not exaggerating.

To just leave a wheel for "truing" without any analysis is inviting trouble. According to Murphy
that's the wheel that will have corroded nipples, chain-mangled right side spokes, a rim dent, the
wrong rim liner, a notched freewheel with the notches broken away, a patch fused to the inside of
the tire that tears open on removal, a broken axle, a pitted cup, a skewer whose E-clip is missing
and the skwewer nut is rusted to the right side, which breaks off when we turn it. Oh, and the
customer will expect a $5 service ticket because that's what we charged on the _front_ wheel. "Hey,
it's the same bike, dude"

I press a completely wrecked steel wheel with my knee enough to spin in the bike at least once a
week. I also spend thirty minutes getting nice wheels nearly perfect on a regular basis. Both kinds
of customers leave happy at $1 and $25 respectively.

Are you or the shop in error? Probably both to the extent that you both didn't communicate well but
they should know better.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

-snip-

"Rick Onanian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I possibly wouldn't trust a used truing stand; it needs to be a precision instrument.

-snip-

Oh yeah? There's no difference in quality of output when I true in a bike with my thumb as a a guide
or when I use a stand. The differences among stands are all in the area of operator
comfort/convenience.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971