Re:

Carol Hague said:

Thinking about it, I probably ate meat because it was what my parents
served for dinner, rather than because I particularly liked it, so when
I decided not to eat it any more, it wasn't a huge sacrifice.

And I gave up after cooking for myself on a tight but achievable budget
for a year, so I wasn't eating meat much at the time and didn't really
miss what I wasn't having.

But if someone decides they shouldn't eat meat for ethical reasons
although they enjoy the stuff then I think it's a Big Mistake to just
put something like Quorn in your usual recipes and assume you won't
think, "oh... that's not really up to much!". That's just a way to
emphasize you miss meat. OTOH if they embrace vegetarian cookery that
is how it is because it works better without meat they'll probably
discover a whole world of flavours they'd not really come across before.
Which is rather better than meat and two veg without the meat...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 25/11/04 3:52 pm, in article [email hidden], "Peter

Clinch said:

Carol Hague said:

Thinking about it, I probably ate meat because it was what my parents
served for dinner, rather than because I particularly liked it, so when
I decided not to eat it any more, it wasn't a huge sacrifice.

And I gave up after cooking for myself on a tight but achievable budget
for a year, so I wasn't eating meat much at the time and didn't really
miss what I wasn't having.

But if someone decides they shouldn't eat meat for ethical reasons
although they enjoy the stuff then I think it's a Big Mistake to just
put something like Quorn in your usual recipes and assume you won't
think, "oh... that's not really up to much!". That's just a way to
emphasize you miss meat. OTOH if they embrace vegetarian cookery that
is how it is because it works better without meat they'll probably
discover a whole world of flavours they'd not really come across before.
Which is rather better than meat and two veg without the meat...

Which as a confirmed carnivore I concur with absolutely. There are many,
many nice things to cook that do not involve including or pretending to
include meat.

...d

(Carol Hague) said:

It was a bugbear of mine when I first went veggie back in the eighties
though - I lost count of the times I asked for a veggie option in a
pub/caff etc and was offered fish. The urge to ask what plant they
thought fish grew on was nearly overwhelming at times.

My boss does not eat dairy. Whenever we are somewhere for lunch we get the
following conversation:
boss: "Is there any dairy in dish X?"
Waiter: "I will check with the chef....I'm sorry, he says there is egg in
the sauce"

Roos

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carol Hague said:

Thinking about it, I probably ate meat because it was what my parents
served for dinner, rather than because I particularly liked it, so when
I decided not to eat it any more, it wasn't a huge sacrifice.

And I gave up after cooking for myself on a tight but achievable budget
for a year, so I wasn't eating meat much at the time and didn't really
miss what I wasn't having.

But if someone decides they shouldn't eat meat for ethical reasons
although they enjoy the stuff then I think it's a Big Mistake to just
put something like Quorn in your usual recipes and assume you won't
think, "oh... that's not really up to much!". That's just a way to
emphasize you miss meat. OTOH if they embrace vegetarian cookery that
is how it is because it works better without meat they'll probably
discover a whole world of flavours they'd not really come across before.
Which is rather better than meat and two veg without the meat...

The last meat I ever ate was a 12th night Turkey Curry, pure rubber ;-( .
After not having eaten meat for a few years I realised I missed things like
toad in the hole with onion gravy and mash, to be able to re-create it
without real sausages (which I had gone right off) was a real treat, but it
is by no means my staple diet. I am also useless at Indian Chinese or Thai
so apart from pasta/pizza it becomes difficult to be creative without cheese
or a lot of frying which is even less healthy than meat anyway.

BTW I have studiously avoided all the low carb stuff recently because no-one
has yet come up with a sensible alternative for cycling on than complex
carbs IMO.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Peter Clinch said:

In another sense there is the problem that if you cook as a veggie using
a meat substitute then you're really asking to be sorely disappointed
IMHO and IME.

Absolutely. Veggie food that pretends to be meat is indeed a poor substitute.

There's a halfway-house: a nut roast, for example, may be quite pleasant.
But in general terms, good veggie food makes no pretence whatsoever at
being meat-like.

Quoted message said:

Quorn is, like I just said, okay, but it isn't the same
as, say, a tender piece of lamb, so it can't adequately substitute for
it.

No less a gourmet than Clement Freud has spoken in favour of the tasteless
battery chicken. His thesis, with which I entirely agree on taste (though
not on ethical) grounds is that it's a basis for doing something interesting,
with good use of herbs and spices providing a delicious flavour. Quorn
is the same.

Quoted message said:

If you're going veggie better to look for /alternatives/ than
substitutes: cook things which work fine without meat, or anything like
meat, in other words, and appreciate those ingredients for what they are
and what they do best.

Zigackly.

--
Nick Kew

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:35:26 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Biologically we are adapted to eating an omnivorous diet and restricting
oneself to only non-animal foods will make your dietary requirements
more difficult to meet, and leave you more likely to be deficient than a
balanced approach to meat. Where possible, I try to source meat from
local suppliers such as the Farmer's Market, or from a butcher that
works in a similar manner (Crombies in Edinburgh). One reason for this
is that it tastes better.

If you think you are biologically adapted to eating meat, try chasing
a cow around the field, jumping on it and biting it.

More difficult in a relative sense, true, but not sufficiently
difficult for it to make the slightest bit of difference.

Quoted message said:

Jon

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:02:07 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

I've met many who have. Some were down to using vitamin pills (And not
asking too many questions about how the vitamins were sourced).

Vitamin pills? What are they? :-)

I think both omnivorous and herbivorous [? is that a valid term for a
veggie diet?]] diets are easily healthy. But I prefer my veggie diet
for ethical and environmental reasons.

Quoted message said:

It's relatively easy for a [censored] cook to produce a good, balanced meal.
It takes a better cook to do so when the range of possible ingredients
is significantly reduced. Not impossible. Just more difficult.

Naah, just stick to a dish called MIUAYGA [1]

Quoted message said:

And I don't try to start vegetarians on to meat. I just like to
understand the reasoning (And play with people's ideas. If they can't
stand up to reasoned debate...). :-)

No point in trying to convert anybody in either direction. That would
simply be flogging a dead carrot!

[1]
Ingredients: Whatever happens to be in the fridge or cupboard. Asda
"woopsies" are particularly tasty.

Method: Chuck in frying pan and fry. Add tomato sauce to taste

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:21:18 +0000, [email hidden] (Carol Hague)

Quoted message said:

No criticism of your dietary choices intended, but as a lifelong member
of the Pedantry Society I can't help but point out that if you eat fish,
you are, by definition, not a vegetarian. Although I can understand why
it might often be easier to call yourself one in social situations.

It was a bugbear of mine when I first went veggie back in the eighties
though - I lost count of the times I asked for a veggie option in a
pub/caff etc and was offered fish. The urge to ask what plant they
thought fish grew on was nearly overwhelming at times.

Fish are those mysterious Sea-Vegetables.

Richard Bates [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

If you think you are biologically adapted to eating meat, try chasing
a cow around the field, jumping on it and biting it.

Not necessary. Either wait for something else to kill the cow then see
what's left after their done, or find a cow that's just died from
something else.

Biologicaly, our teeth and digestive system are geared towards the
efficient digestion of meat and some vegetable matter. We cannot deal
with cellulose which rules out a fair amount of more obvious foodstuffs.

We also have (Smile at the mirror) canines, which serve as a tool for
tearing flesh, not stripping bark, or breaking down tough vegetation.

Quoted message said:

More difficult in a relative sense, true, but not sufficiently
difficult for it to make the slightest bit of difference.

That depends greatly on your skill as a cook. It is easier for an
unskilled cook to produce (nearly) healthy meals if they are not trying
to exclude meat. Most of the hardened vegetarians that I've met are also
very good cooks. I don't know which was cause, and which effect, but
there is a definite trend. The only vegetarian I knew who wasn't a good
cook, stopped being vegetarian soon after he had to prepare his own
meals.

Jon

Richard Bates [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Vitamin pills? What are they? :-)

They're what I spent a large portion of my life avoiding because I knew
that I was capable of cooking decent balanced meals, and then started
using when I realised that capability and "doing it" are two different
things.

Think of them as a threat to force you to eat better!

Quoted message said:

I think both omnivorous and herbivorous [? is that a valid term for a
veggie diet?]] diets are easily healthy. But I prefer my veggie diet
for ethical and environmental reasons.

With the exception of mince (Which I bulk-buy in the supermarket), I try
to get my meat from sources that are ethical in the production.

Quoted message said:

Naah, just stick to a dish called MIUAYGA [1]

Despite the footnote, I still haven't worked out what this stands for.

Quoted message said:

No point in trying to convert anybody in either direction. That would
simply be flogging a dead carrot!

He he.

Jon

"Richard Bates" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 13:21:18 +0000, [email hidden] (Carol Hague)

Quoted message said:

No criticism of your dietary choices intended, but as a lifelong member
of the Pedantry Society I can't help but point out that if you eat fish,
you are, by definition, not a vegetarian. Although I can understand why
it might often be easier to call yourself one in social situations.

It was a bugbear of mine when I first went veggie back in the eighties
though - I lost count of the times I asked for a veggie option in a
pub/caff etc and was offered fish. The urge to ask what plant they
thought fish grew on was nearly overwhelming at times.

Fish are those mysterious Sea-Vegetables.

I eat fish, I only describe myself as veggie so I don't get given meat at a
function. There is a demi veg society which permits chicken etc, might as
well go the whole hog IMO. Fish to me is healthier, less intensively farmed
(unless you of course Trout and Salmon, plus Far Eastern King Prawns which
are apparently as bad as rain forest beef so I'm told) and enables you to
eat something when abroad.

Quoted message said:

If you think you are biologically adapted to eating meat, try chasing
a cow around the field, jumping on it and biting it.

I do believe that as a species, our brains gave us the mental capacity to
develop hunting strategies - it happens in human populations all over the
globe, past & present. There is a school of thought that in ancient times, it
was eating meat that gave us sufficient protein to develop the brains we have.
We are indeed biologically developed as ominvores, so eating meat is a normal
part of the human diet. If one choses not to eat meat, that is their entirely
legitimate choice as there is a lot to be said against factory farming... and
in many parts of the developed world we don't need meat to survive.

And even our nearest relatives, the chimpanzees, eat meat and hunt monkeys.. I
have not however, seen a chimp on a bicycle outside the PG Tips "Avez-vous un
cuppa" TV ad of many moons ago (vague attempt at being on topic...)

Cheers, helen s

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
h*$el*$$e*nd**$o$ts**i*$*$m*m$o*n*s@$*a$o*l.c**$om$

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On 26/11/04 12:20 am, in article [email hidden],

Jon Senior' jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

With the exception of mince (Which I bulk-buy in the supermarket), I try
to get my meat from sources that are ethical in the production.

I try to also think about where the food is coming from and behave ethically
in regards to purchases..

This translates to: buy local wherever possible.
When you can't buy local, buy fairtrade if available.
Do I really need king prawns shipped half way round the world?
And if I run over it and it is edible, then take it home and cook it ;-) All
those poor carrots leaping out at me on the bike..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Naah, just stick to a dish called MIUAYGA [1]

Despite the footnote, I still haven't worked out what this stands for.

Don't worry, just make it up as you go along like the rest of us..

...d

Richard Bates said:

If you think you are biologically adapted to eating meat, try chasing
a cow around the field, jumping on it and biting it.

More difficult in a relative sense, true, but not sufficiently
difficult for it to make the slightest bit of difference.

Visit a sushi bar...

Typically in nature predator/prey is usually bigger/smaller so cows are
a poor example, but we get them through tool use, but smaller stuff
should be possible to eat as is, if one really /had/ to.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:14:33 -0000, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

Richard Bates [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

If you think you are biologically adapted to eating meat, try chasing
a cow around the field, jumping on it and biting it.

Not necessary. Either wait for something else to kill the cow then see
what's left after their done, or find a cow that's just died from
something else.

As long as that death wasn't caused by abhorent management in a
farming envirnment then I could quite possibly tolerate eating such an
animal (in theory: I'm not sure how I would stand up to it in
practice!). If the death was roadkill then I'm not sure if it would be
100% ethical. Certainly it would be a shame to waste it, but I'm
uneasy about whether or not it was a natural death.

In an urban environment such as Birmingham, my natural-death-diet
options would be cat, cat, cat or cat.

Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote:

: there is a definite trend. The only vegetarian I knew who wasn't a good
: cook, stopped being vegetarian soon after he had to prepare his own
: meals.

I know some vegetarians that don't actually like vegetables. They subsist on
Linda McCartney and similar.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness

Arthur Clune said:

I know some vegetarians that don't actually like vegetables. They subsist on
Linda McCartney and similar.

That would make them cannibals, wouldn't it?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

Quoted message said:

I know some vegetarians that don't actually like vegetables. They subsist on
Linda McCartney and similar.

Quoted message said:

That would make them cannibals, wouldn't it?

Since she died a while ago and wasn't exactly overweight I think it
would make them bloody hungry by now... ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

I know some vegetarians that don't actually like vegetables.

There used to be loads of things I didn't like; then I moved out and
realised it was just my Mother's cooking.

Just zis Guy said:

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:19:34 +0000, Al C-F
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
<[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>And there was parliament labouring under the impression the ban was a
>ban on animal suffering when all along it was a ban on people enjoying
>themselves.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, not enjoying themselves, enjoying killing things. There is a
difference. Drag hunting remains legal, after all.

Yet said things are still to be killed, but in less effective (and
probably less enjoyable) ways.

Quoted message said:

In what way is two men with a gun less effective than a crowd of
people on horseback and a pack of dogs carefully bred to be not much
faster than the quarry? To say nothing of the hunts which have had to
work hard to ensure and adequate supply of "vermin" to "control".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please explain the importance of your difference.

Quoted message said:

I would have thought that was obvious. There is nothing about hunting
for pest control which requires anything like the numbers of people
involved. It is extraordinarily inefficient! I can't imagine why
Maggie didn't ban it...

I can think of few less efficient and more expensive ways of getting a
golf ball into a hole than thrashing it about the countryside with
golf clubs.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]